Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt04.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 1.6 MB

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From: [e-mail] (Juergen Behse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO-pictures (digitized pictures)
Summary: ufo pictures
Keywords: ufo
Message-ID: <behse.695977836@tubue>
Date: 21 Jan 92 07:10:36 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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References: <[e-mail]>
In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Toby Howard) writes:
>Hi
>I'm trying to track down the origin of a famous 'photo' of a 'crashed
>saucer alien'. It looks circa 40s/50s, and shows a small group of people,
>with two men in front, holding the raised arms of a little scrawny alien,
>who is standing between them, and is about 1/2 their size.

>Thanks for any help
>Toby
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Toby Howard    Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester
>Lecturer               Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, United Kingdom
>                                                   Tel: [phone]
>[e-mail]                                  Fax: [phone]
>

Hi, yes if You could get any pictures of it, please can You try to digitize
them and post it to any FTP site and let us know, where You did put them ??

Try to digitize with a color scanner in 24 Bits and convert it with
Image Alchemy from Handmade Software to JPEG-format. So it will be
viewable on a true color display.
If You don't have the hardware to digitize the pictures, maybe a friend can do
this for You ?

Is there any picture out yet from the mysterious PHOBOS satellite, that should
have been showing a cigar-like-looking ufo-shape with it's last pictures
transmitted to Earth before the communication broke down in the MARS region ?
There was some rumor here in this newsgroup, that a Russian astronaut wife
had shown this picture already to a recent UFO conference.
Has anybody seen it already. Can anybody digitize it and post it uuencoded in
this group or upload it to an FTP site ?

Please mail response to:
[e-mail]
-Stefan Hartmann

Please don't send email to the following signature!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 08:27:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Bryan asks

>Could you quote a few non-earth humans and their reactions too, Don?

Well Bryan, I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of
quoting I am going to give my interpretation of what I have been learning from
the Pleiadians. For those who don't know the Pleiadians are a group of
entities from the future who are being channeled by Barbara Marciniak.  I
consider them our future selves and their more than 200 tapes are truly a
cosmic university.  I have listened to about 60 or 70 of their tapes and will
distill what I have put together from these tapes.  It is an incredibly
beautiful teaching that is designed to lead one to full self empowerment. I
will be at one of their weekends on Feb. 1 & 2 at Lake Tahoe.

So first I need to define some terms. There is what is called first cause,
prime creator, or God-Godess-All That Is.  Then there are creator gods. Notice
the small g.  Then there are the original planner creator gods and the what I
call the second shift creator gods.

Now the original planner creator gods created humanity in a sense perfectly
along with a planet that included the DNA from the entire universe. The earth
is a living library of the entire universe and the humans are the library
cards. There was a society on earth that had these fully evolved 12 heli
humans. It existed over 300 thousand years ago and remnants of it are under
the south pole and on mars.

Then there was a war in heaven as the expression goes. The original planners
left and the second shift came in and re-engineered humans into Adam man and
others. Now what they did is scramble the top 10 heli of the DNA so that
survival and sexuality was all that was active. The top 10 were basically
idle.  This correlates to why we are only using ten percent of our brains. And
why we only use ten percent of our 7 and a half foot DNA strand.

These second shift creator gods are reptilian in nature and in their
exuberance in being able to genetically engineer,  they forgot their
connection to first cause and wanted their creations to worship them. That is
why there is so much talk about a punishing god in the bible.

The other interesting thing is they had leave sexuality intact but shut it
down.  Because through sexuality one can know/remember their connection to
first cause. That is why the church attempts to control sexuality. So humans
will not connect with first cause but will reproduce.  So the reptilian
creator gods that created religions get off on the humans fear.  That is why
the church takes something that is a given, spiritual immortality and
convinces their followers that it is not available to anyone who has not been
saved.  Needing to be saved is an example of eternal stupidity. The one thing
an eternal, immortal soul does not need is to be saved.  What an absolutely
absurd idea. It is totally amazing that anyone can be eternally dumb and
gullible enough to think they need to be saved.  You know the animals know
they are going to reincarnate. Nothing ever dies.

So now we have these reptilian gods wanting their scrambled DNA humans to
worship them. Now who in their right mind is going to worship someone that
looks like the characters in V or like Dino. What they needed was a marketing
representative, someone human who could be used to convince the other humans
that The Father was something other than a lizard. So they borrowed the life
and teachings of a man called Emmanuel. They couldn't get a lot of attention
by calling him Emmanuel so they renamed him Jesus Christ one hundred years
after he died. They couldn't very well tell the true story of his life because
he was into sex, lived 80-100 years and was married and had kids.  They also
couldn't very well admit that there were many Christed ones and lots of them
were female.  So they rewrote his life and created a holographic insert to
make everyone believe he had been crucified on a cross.  To establish a basic
belief in suffering and sacrifice in the followers.  The really interesting
thing is the church screwed up, bad. Emmanuel taught reincarnation. And the
first version of the doctrine had that in it.  Guess what? Everyone soon
figured out, if I am going to reincarnate, why do I need to follow the
eternally stupid doctrine. So for the first 500 years the churches were empty.
So the nefarious fathers of the church got together and removed reincarnation
from the doctrine. about 565 ad. Things still didn't go to well. So the
nefarious fathers started murdering all none believers in public by section
and quartering them and burning them at the stake. (The early form of sports
and television.) So then it became fairly easy to get converts. Either go to
church or risk being burned at the stake. Now the church started to grow even
if the followers didn't fear god they did fear being burned at the stake.
Along about 1600 the government stepped in and said Hey we have to find an
alternative to burning our population. It is rough to get taxes from a crisp
corpse.

So a deal was cut, the logical, rational mind was created. A fairly simple
process of educating one to believe that all knowledge is outside. And
training one to never look inside for anything.  Basically teaching them to be
on time, follow the rules, FEAR the consequences, consume and die. Now the
govts get the work force and the reptilian gods get their fear generating
humans. And the humans are to busy surviving to notice their connection to
first cause or prime creator.

Now the so called newage is the returning of the original planners from all
over the universe, in all forms. It is an increase in energy or light. The
heat is on!  The earth is truly a garden of eden and offers the trees of life
(immortality) and the trees of knowledge (light). We can choose to activate
our DNA and be alive. There is also ample resources available to feed, clothe,
shelter and educate a population of ten times what we currently have.  Imagine
a population of ten times what we have living in peace, joy, health and
harmony.  Right now all the suffering in the world is in control of no more
then 500 people.  I know that 500 good newagers can shift the planet to the
eden it was designed to be. In fact it is more a matter of waking up and doing
it sooner.

I hope you folks enjoyed reading this half as much as I enjoyed writing it.
Infinite love, peace and joy!!! Don Showen
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From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 15:52:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[long grade-B newage sf story omitted]

Where are the smileys?

note the follow-up line. sci.skeptic isn't there. Keep this drivel
out of sci.skeptic, please.
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From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 19:12:13 GMT
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Don, I know you mean well, and I don't want to put you off your beliefs
or cause you harm, but I have to respond to some of this here.

> I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of
> quoting I am going to give my interpretation of what I have been learning
> from the Pleiadians. For those who don't know the Pleiadians are a group of
> entities from the future who are being channeled by Barbara Marciniak.

I feel bad about the misguidence.  But then there are those who need to go
this way in order to discover for themselves what I'm talking about.

> So first I need to define some terms. There is what is called first cause,
> prime creator, or God-Godess-All That Is. Then there are creator gods. Notice
> the small g. Then there are the original planner creator gods and the what I
> call the second shift creator gods.

"Faith".  Each person has some of it.  Sometimes people place their "faith"
in things unbalanced, unfounded, and/or unproductive.  In the case of this
channeled material, there is a pattern, an unmistakeable pattern of psychic
misguidence.  Though the people involved may not have a clue as to what I'm
talking about and they may try to condemn me for my admonitions against this
sort of belief system as expoused by B.M. and others like her.  Faith here
is in the "psychic" manifestation.  That is, in psychic entities which only
exist in the minds of the beholders and which feed off their electromagnetic
brain-wave energies.  That is what this is all about.  It is shortsighted to
have this type of "faith" (imho).  Channeled stuff like this only serves to
line the pockets of channelers with many frogskins (money).

What I say will probably make no difference to you anyway.  But in the case
of channelers spewing out this kind of misinformation, I find that I have to
make my feelings known anyway.  You don't have to take my word for it.  In
fact, you can ignore me if you want.  I'm simply raising a flag.

> Right now all the suffering in the world is in control of no more
> then 500 people.  I know that 500 good newagers can shift the planet to the
> eden it was designed to be. In fact it is more a matter of waking up and doing
> it sooner.
>
> I hope you folks enjoyed reading this half as much as I enjoyed writing it.
> Infinite love, peace and joy!!! Don Showen

This last part has some rationality to it.  In my opinion, you would do
well to weed out the irrational beliefs given to you by the channelers,
and create yourself a solid, rational base to stand on.  Give youself some
credit and let your mind be a tool for your own *understanding* and not
a tool for the channelers to dupe you with unbalanced fantasy/faith.


--
rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation
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From: [e-mail] (Seth Cohn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 20:18:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (be here now) writes:
>Don, I know you mean well, and I don't want to put you off your beliefs
>or cause you harm, but I have to respond to some of this here.

First, you are entitled to your opinion, and I cannot convince you
thru this medium (hehe little pun there) but....

>
>> I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of
>> quoting I am going to give my interpretation of what I have been learning
>> from the Pleiadians. For those who don't know the Pleiadians are a group of
>> entities from the future who are being channeled by Barbara Marciniak.

I'm not a big fan of the Pleiadians, but...

>
>I feel bad about the misguidence.  But then there are those who need to go
>this way in order to discover for themselves what I'm talking about.

I question your claim of "misguidence"

>
>> So first I need to define some terms. There is what is called first cause,
>> prime creator, or God-Godess-All That Is. Then there are creator gods. Notice
>> the small g. Then there are the original planner creator gods and the what I
>> call the second shift creator gods.

I understand what Don described, and see it in a different way,
but I can accept his description for now...

>
>"Faith".  Each person has some of it.  Sometimes people place their "faith"
>in things unbalanced, unfounded, and/or unproductive.  In the case of this
>channeled material, there is a pattern, an unmistakeable pattern of psychic
>misguidence.  Though the people involved may not have a clue as to what I'm
>talking about and they may try to condemn me for my admonitions against this
>sort of belief system as expoused by B.M. and others like her.  Faith here
>is in the "psychic" manifestation.  That is, in psychic entities which only
>exist in the minds of the beholders and which feed off their electromagnetic
>brain-wave energies.  That is what this is all about.  It is shortsighted to
>have this type of "faith" (imho).  Channeled stuff like this only serves to
>line the pockets of channelers with many frogskins (money).

As one who channels (both for myself and others) and has done so for
over 3 years, as well a PICKY and skeptical student of other's channelingm,
I MUST disagree... Rj, what evidence do you have for your claim?
Either the channeling is a fake, or SOMETHING is going on, right?
then if somthing is going on, you need to figure out what...
Having studied channeling for over 7 years now, and become one..
I am convince there IS something here..  Not mere psychic entities in
ones head, but in tangible beings, which one can learn to FEEL
(such as in connection via long distance phone call, one can FEEL
 the same energy one can feel in the same room as the channeling when
they are channeling.  I have channeled for free, and have many friends
who are professional channels.  There ARE people out there I wouldn't
trust to shine my shoes, such as Ramtha, and anything from Elizabeth Clare
Prophet... but many sources (examples include Micheal, Seth, Bashar)
teach to QUESTION everything including the channeling... and the source..
and if you enter into it with a CLEAR mind, and not prejudging the outcome
 you ususally become conviniced in the information content...

Rj, (and Kathy, and anyone else who usually feels that a living
person is a better source of wisdom)  Have you gone to a GOOD responsible
self questioning, and talented channeler? you might find yourself
suprised.... it's not anythign like the "channeling" stereotype..

>
>What I say will probably make no difference to you anyway.  But in the case
>of channelers spewing out this kind of misinformation, I find that I have to
>make my feelings known anyway.  You don't have to take my word for it.  In
>fact, you can ignore me if you want.  I'm simply raising a flag.

Like I said, you can feel whatever you want, and I am not trying to
convince you. My view is different.  I can accept that other's don't agree.
and in fact don't WANT them to automattically agree me, if they don't
VALIDATE the info, they are following in blind faith, which I abhor..
>
>> Right now all the suffering in the world is in control of no more
>> then 500 people.  I know that 500 good newagers can shift the planet to the
>> eden it was designed to be. In fact it is more a matter of waking up and doing
>> it sooner.
>>
>> I hope you folks enjoyed reading this half as much as I enjoyed writing it.
>> Infinite love, peace and joy!!! Don Showen
>
>This last part has some rationality to it.  In my opinion, you would do
>well to weed out the irrational beliefs given to you by the channelers,
>and create yourself a solid, rational base to stand on.  Give youself some
>credit and let your mind be a tool for your own *understanding* and not
>a tool for the channelers to dupe you with unbalanced fantasy/faith.
>

I use my mind, and find it "tuned" better by the info I get from chanelling
(both my own and others) far more then ANY other source of wisdom
I have found.  I question, and I find the answers all fit.... granted
the answers aren't what "society" accepts, but I find they work for
me... and they explain the world in ways that help me to deal with it....
Or to steal a line: "reality" as society accepts it, is for those who
can't handle the channeled truth.. (big grin)

>
>--
>rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
>[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation


--
Seth Cohn - [e-mail] 607-273-2815             |Th?s ?s ?
PO BOX 671  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty|s?bl?m?n?l
Ithaca NY   I hate spiritual discipline. I like spiritual anarchy|.s?g v?r?s
14851                                                            |C?py M?!
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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Did a little research on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 18:35:35 GMT
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At Don Allen's urging to the Net, I decided to do a little research
into the Reticulan stories.  I didn't want to wade through a bunch
of weirded out crap about "pyramid-based space brothers" and such, so
I decided to assume the LGM (little grey men) got here by means unknown
and look at the astronomy of the situation instead.  Unfortunately, I'm
an hour away from my alma mater's physics and astro library, so I had
to rely on whatever books I still had lying around after being out
of the business for 12 years.

Item number 1: Zeta Ret. is a double star.  Normally, it's pretty
unlikely that a planet in a binary system could harbor life due to high
radiation fluxes and wide temperature variations.  These are caused by
complex orbits and gravitational perturbations by the nearness of the
companion star; I invite you to read some celestial mechanics to verify
this.  Actually, planetary formation itself can be a real bitch if the
stars are too close.  However, my info doesn't indicate if it's a *visual*
double or a *physical* double i.e. binary.  If the system is only a visual
double with a common proper motion (motion measured against much more
distant stars which can be considered fixed) caused by formation in roughly
the same area of space, the arguments about a minimal or non-existent
"lifezone" are not applicable.  So, we need to determine if this baby is a
physical double or not.

Item 2:  My info gave an M-K spectral classification for the two stars
as G1 and G2.  Our sun is a G2 star, but it's a dwarf star, indicated
by a third element: G2V (Roman numeral five).  The classification is
important because the hotter/more massive a star is, the faster it
burns its fuel and dies.  The Pleaidian stories have a major flaw:
the Pleiades are type O and B stars and therefore can't have existed
for very long.  The probability of life evolving on planets around
those stars in that time frame (million versus billions of years) is
small plus you've got a lot of radiation coming off those puppies.  Yeah,
yeah, "But they just colonized that area!", sigh.  Anyway, a gentleman at
Princeton U. was kind enough to supply me with the complete measured
classifications.  There will be some variation depending on observer,
technique, etc. but the consensus is one star is a G1V and the other is a
G2V.  Before we jump to conclusions, we need to consider that a lot of
stars in the Solar neighborhood are relatively cool and are dwarfs, so
this might not be any big deal.  On the other hand, spectrally, the LGM
picked the "right" kind of star from which to originate.

I'm going to try to dig up more of the physical properties of the system
and follow up on this.  Corrections of my info and critiques of my
reasoning are encouraged and welcomed.  And for the record, I'm still a
skeptic (F=ma and at relativistic speeds mass goes to infinity).
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From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 21:34:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4006 talk.religion.newage:8665 sci.skeptic:19756

Seth, right now, I am engaged in the right use of my will.

>> [ channeled misguidence deleted ]
>>
>> I feel bad about the misguidence.  But then there are those who need to go
>> this way in order to discover for themselves what I'm talking about.

> I question your claim of "misguidence"

Good.  Besides I wasn't claiming it.  Just stating my opinion.

> As one who channels (both for myself and others) and has done so for
> over 3 years, as well a PICKY and skeptical student of other's channelingm,
> I MUST disagree... Rj, what evidence do you have for your claim?
> Either the channeling is a fake, or SOMETHING is going on, right?

Something is going on, you're right.  It's called advent "psychism" (for
those who simply have to have terms for stuff like this) that's what I'd
call it.  Channeling is distraction for me.  I too channeled for a couple
of years until I saw through it's disguise.  Again, my opinion.  You are
certainly welcome to your own opinions.

> Having studied channeling for over 7 years now, and become one..
> I am convince there IS something here..  Not mere psychic entities in
> ones head, but in tangible beings, which one can learn to FEEL
> (such as in connection via long distance phone call, one can FEEL
>  the same energy one can feel in the same room as the channeling when
> they are channeling.  I have channeled for free, and have many friends

Like I said, 'tis all "psychism".  I've never said you couldn't FEEL the
energy of psychic presence, I've been trying to clarify what it is that
the channelers and those who flock at their pyschism are feeling.  A lot
of it IS within people's heads only, but some psychic energy is a matter
of FEELing.  When I move down (or out) the lines of energy that connect
me and my world to those of the channelers, I FEEL the misguidence, I
know that for myself there is nothing at all for me there.  I understand
that other people may in fact, find some meaning where I do not.  I don't
tell people NOT to indulge, I express my opinions and then let them go.

> Rj, (and Kathy, and anyone else who usually feels that a living
> person is a better source of wisdom)  Have you gone to a GOOD responsible
> self questioning, and talented channeler? you might find yourself
> suprised.... it's not anythign like the "channeling" stereotype..

I think you should ask that of yourself.  I myself started out as a GOOD
responsible self questioning and talented channeler and guess what?  I
learned something.  I learned to discern between the garbage and the
flowers.  I have not forgotten either.  I do not impose self-limitation
nor dis-unify my own psychic part of my being.

> Like I said, you can feel whatever you want, and I am not trying to
> convince you. My view is different.  I can accept that other's don't agree.
> and in fact don't WANT them to automattically agree me, if they don't
> VALIDATE the info, they are following in blind faith, which I abhor..

That's fine with me.  Blind faith, in anything, including the words and
books of channelers, is an ignorant way.  More importantly, look at HOW
the believer of channeled words convinces him/herself that it is the only
truth there is and HOW they usually couple it with concepts of it being
"God"'s will or inspiration or the very source of the channeled words.

It is an act of self-indulgence.  I only offer an alternate opinion and
there is no need for explanations beyond this. I can accept yours or other
peoples points of view or beliefs as being something valid for you and
these other people.  No problemo.  However, my right use of will is such
that I will act upon whatever I encounter in my daily life.  That means
I may even write about my opinions on this network from time to time.  It
does not mean that I am right and that everyone should agree with me.  On
the contrary, I believe that people should remain open-minded about things
they are still trying to understand, grasp, and/or believe in.

> I use my mind, and find it "tuned" better by the info I get from chanelling
> (both my own and others) far more then ANY other source of wisdom
> I have found.  I question, and I find the answers all fit.... granted
>
> Seth Cohn

Ah.  Your mind.  Get it?  Every person's OWN mind contains the same stuff
and source that the channelers are wont is to tap into.  So, in reality,
there is really NO NEED to channel.  It's just a way you explain it to
yourself; how you come by this information.  Deep meditation can yield the
same results without the irrationality that channelers end up with by having
created a non-unified psychic personality within their very own Self.  Dig?


--
rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!maths.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 22:37:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:


>Bryan asks

>>Could you quote a few non-earth humans and their reactions too, Don?

>Well Bryan, I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of
>quoting I am going to give my interpretation of what I have been learning from
>the Pleiadians. For those who don't know the Pleiadians are a group of
>entities from the future who are being channeled by Barbara Marciniak.  I
>consider them our future selves and their more than 200 tapes are truly a
>cosmic university.  I have listened to about 60 or 70 of their tapes and will
>distill what I have put together from these tapes.  It is an incredibly
>beautiful teaching that is designed to lead one to full self empowerment. I
>will be at one of their weekends on Feb. 1 & 2 at Lake Tahoe.

I am well aware of the Pleiadians and the bunkum they "teach" -- little
matter that it is all stuff that could be dreamed up by any science
fiction writer with a little imagination, but to actually pin such
arrant nonsense on entities from the future is pushing things a little.
By the way, I have as much faith in Ms Marciniak's channelling abilities
as I have in that of stage magicians to perform their art; after all,
there is _no_ substantive difference between the two disciplines, except
that channellers assert that what they are doing is the real McCoy.

>So first I need to define some terms. There is what is called first cause,
>prime creator, or God-Godess-All That Is.  Then there are creator gods. Notice
>the small g.  Then there are the original planner creator gods and the what I
>call the second shift creator gods.

Yes; this is all very standard pseudo-religious spiel. Where's the beef?

>Now the original planner creator gods created humanity in a sense perfectly
>along with a planet that included the DNA from the entire universe. The earth
>is a living library of the entire universe and the humans are the library
>cards. There was a society on earth that had these fully evolved 12 heli
>humans. It existed over 300 thousand years ago and remnants of it are under
>the south pole and on mars.

Really? And how are you aware of this? As a small aside, I might point
out that not enough solar energy reaches Mars for it to support
carbon-based life as we know it, thus making the 12 heli-humans figments
of your feverish imagination.

>Then there was a war in heaven as the expression goes. The original planners
>left and the second shift came in and re-engineered humans into Adam man and
>others. Now what they did is scramble the top 10 heli of the DNA so that
>survival and sexuality was all that was active. The top 10 were basically
>idle.  This correlates to why we are only using ten percent of our brains. And
>why we only use ten percent of our 7 and a half foot DNA strand.

From where did you pluck the idea that only 10% of our brains are in
use? I might point out again that this smells suspiciously like New Age
Christianity with some spice thrown in for the Flying Saucer fans. I'd
need a little more than fanciful stories with _no_ substantiation to
believe what you are saying.

>These second shift creator gods are reptilian in nature and in their
>exuberance in being able to genetically engineer,  they forgot their
>connection to first cause and wanted their creations to worship them. That is
>why there is so much talk about a punishing god in the bible.

Have you ever read a series of books by Harry Harrison called the Eden
saga or some such? The similarities between his fictitious plot and your
beliefs are nothing short of amazing...

>The other interesting thing is they had leave sexuality intact but shut it
>down.  Because through sexuality one can know/remember their connection to
>first cause. That is why the church attempts to control sexuality. So humans
>will not connect with first cause but will reproduce.  So the reptilian
>creator gods that created religions get off on the humans fear.  That is why
>the church takes something that is a given, spiritual immortality and
>convinces their followers that it is not available to anyone who has not been
>saved.  Needing to be saved is an example of eternal stupidity. The one thing
>an eternal, immortal soul does not need is to be saved.  What an absolutely
>absurd idea. It is totally amazing that anyone can be eternally dumb and
>gullible enough to think they need to be saved.  You know the animals know
>they are going to reincarnate. Nothing ever dies.

Well, at least you admit that needing to be saved is a bucket of crud,
but what of this business of reincarnation? Proof, please. Hell, even an
intelligent argument, please. What is a given about spiritual
immortality, by the way, and would you care to recount to us some of
your memories of first cause?

>So now we have these reptilian gods wanting their scrambled DNA humans to
>worship them. Now who in their right mind is going to worship someone that
>looks like the characters in V or like Dino. What they needed was a marketing
>representative, someone human who could be used to convince the other humans
>that The Father was something other than a lizard. So they borrowed the ...

Yeah, right. I would have no problems worshipping crocodilians assuming
(a) they could understand what I was doing and (b) they were in fact
deities and would do me something worthwhile for my troubles. So?

>... female.  So they rewrote his life and created a holographic insert to
>make everyone believe he had been crucified on a cross.  To establish a ...

A _holographic_ insert? What do you mean by that, may I ask?

[nonsensical revisionist ramblings deleted]

>So a deal was cut, the logical, rational mind was created. A fairly simple
>process of educating one to believe that all knowledge is outside. And
>training one to never look inside for anything.  Basically teaching them to be
>on time, follow the rules, FEAR the consequences, consume and die. Now the
>govts get the work force and the reptilian gods get their fear generating
>humans. And the humans are to busy surviving to notice their connection to
>first cause or prime creator.

Ha ha.

>Now the so called newage is the returning of the original planners from all
>over the universe, in all forms. It is an increase in energy or light. The
>heat is on!  The earth is truly a garden of eden and offers the trees of life
>(immortality) and the trees of knowledge (light). We can choose to activate
>our DNA and be alive. There is also ample resources available to feed, clothe,
>shelter and educate a population of ten times what we currently have.  Imagine
>a population of ten times what we have living in peace, joy, health and
>harmony.  Right now all the suffering in the world is in control of no more
>then 500 people.  I know that 500 good newagers can shift the planet to the
>eden it was designed to be. In fact it is more a matter of waking up and doing
>it sooner.

Crap. Utter and total crap.

>I hope you folks enjoyed reading this half as much as I enjoyed writing it.
>Infinite love, peace and joy!!! Don Showen

Listen, Don, I'm very sorry I wasted my precious time reading your
posting, and even more sorry that I wasted it in replying. I'd advise
you to seek psychiatric help or voluntarily commit yourself, thereby
leaving yourself less open to the advances of shysters and other people
of dubious repute as your existence worries me, but I won't bother,
because you won't listen.

Have as happy a life as you can, and don't go believing _everything_
you're told.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!alchemy.tn.cornell.edu!seth
From: [e-mail] (Seth Cohn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 02:12:22 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (be here now) writes:
>Seth, right now, I am engaged in the right use of my will.

And I applaud that fact.. I am not angry that you posted, in fact,
glad since I enjoyed responding to it...

>>> I feel bad about the misguidence.  But then there are those who need to go
>>> this way in order to discover for themselves what I'm talking about.
>
>> I question your claim of "misguidence"
>
>Good.  Besides I wasn't claiming it.  Just stating my opinion.

Saying "misguidence" is claiming. Yes, your opinion, but it is still a
claim...


>
>> As one who channels (both for myself and others) and has done so for
>> over 3 years, as well a PICKY and skeptical student of other's channelingm,
>> I MUST disagree... Rj, what evidence do you have for your claim?
>> Either the channeling is a fake, or SOMETHING is going on, right?
>
>Something is going on, you're right.  It's called advent "psychism" (for
>those who simply have to have terms for stuff like this) that's what I'd
>call it.  Channeling is distraction for me.  I too channeled for a couple
>of years until I saw through it's disguise.  Again, my opinion.  You are
>certainly welcome to your own opinions.

I have validated the existence of external beings (ie. NOT in my head,
as you clearly feel this stuff is taking place...) I could not prove
this to anyone else, since none of it is reproducible evidence..
but after 7 years of dealing with channeling, I do not feel it is
a part of the channeller I am dealing with. Not a split personality, nor
a conscious fake, NOR anything subconscious...

>
>> Having studied channeling for over 7 years now, and become one..
>> I am convince there IS something here..  Not mere psychic entities in
>> ones head, but in tangible beings, which one can learn to FEEL
>> (such as in connection via long distance phone call, one can FEEL
>>  the same energy one can feel in the same room as the channeling when
>> they are channeling.  I have channeled for free, and have many friends
>
>Like I said, 'tis all "psychism".  I've never said you couldn't FEEL the
>energy of psychic presence, I've been trying to clarify what it is that
>the channelers and those who flock at their pyschism are feeling.  A lot
>of it IS within people's heads only, but some psychic energy is a matter
>of FEELing.  When I move down (or out) the lines of energy that connect
>me and my world to those of the channelers, I FEEL the misguidence, I
>know that for myself there is nothing at all for me there.  I understand
>that other people may in fact, find some meaning where I do not.  I don't
>tell people NOT to indulge, I express my opinions and then let them go.

Indeed, if it don't feel right, don't get involved... MOST of the
channeling out there IS worthless dribble (ala Sturgeon's Law: 98%
of everything is junk) Like I said, I posted a response, since I felt
differently. Who is right?  Both? Neither? Does it matter?
Most of the people in sci.skeptic are probably putting us
both in their kill files as we speak (big grin) It is a personal
choice which as you agree is based on feeling the truth..

>
>> Rj, (and Kathy, and anyone else who usually feels that a living
>> person is a better source of wisdom)  Have you gone to a GOOD responsible
>> self questioning, and talented channeler? you might find yourself
>> suprised.... it's not anythign like the "channeling" stereotype..
>
>I think you should ask that of yourself.  I myself started out as a GOOD
>responsible self questioning and talented channeler and guess what?  I
>learned something.  I learned to discern between the garbage and the
>flowers.  I have not forgotten either.  I do not impose self-limitation
>nor dis-unify my own psychic part of my being.

I have also learned to separate the chaff and the wheat.. nor do I limit
myself and my personal abilities (in fact, I am always learning to
expand them a bit more) but channeling helps me to do so, rather then hinders
me.

>
>> Like I said, you can feel whatever you want, and I am not trying to
>> convince you. My view is different.  I can accept that other's don't agree.
>> and in fact don't WANT them to automattically agree me, if they don't
>> VALIDATE the info, they are following in blind faith, which I abhor..
>
>That's fine with me.  Blind faith, in anything, including the words and
>books of channelers, is an ignorant way.  More importantly, look at HOW
>the believer of channeled words convinces him/herself that it is the only
>truth there is and HOW they usually couple it with concepts of it being
>"God"'s will or inspiration or the very source of the channeled words.

Heheheh, given that I find one channeled work which claims to be by God
to be the best source of growth I know of, and that I have accepted it
as such... WITHOUT blind faith, but with validation over the years..
I can answer this by saying "It ain't the ONLY truth.. but it may still
be truth... "

>
>It is an act of self-indulgence.  I only offer an alternate opinion and
>there is no need for explanations beyond this. I can accept yours or other
>peoples points of view or beliefs as being something valid for you and
>these other people.  No problemo.  However, my right use of will is such
>that I will act upon whatever I encounter in my daily life.  That means
>I may even write about my opinions on this network from time to time.  It
>does not mean that I am right and that everyone should agree with me.  On
>the contrary, I believe that people should remain open-minded about things
>they are still trying to understand, grasp, and/or believe in.

Total agreement here... I too post as the feelings hit me..
nor do I want people to just accept my stuff at first sight..

>
>> I use my mind, and find it "tuned" better by the info I get from chanelling
>> (both my own and others) far more then ANY other source of wisdom
>> I have found.  I question, and I find the answers all fit.... granted
>>
>> Seth Cohn
>
>Ah.  Your mind.  Get it?  Every person's OWN mind contains the same stuff
>and source that the channelers are wont is to tap into.  So, in reality,
>there is really NO NEED to channel.  It's just a way you explain it to
>yourself; how you come by this information.  Deep meditation can yield the
>same results without the irrationality that channelers end up with by having
>created a non-unified psychic personality within their very own Self.  Dig?

Yes and no. Yes, everyone has the answers within AT SOME LEVEL.
No, since I do think there are other sources besides one's own
"mind/self"  Although, to be clear, MY source in channeling IS my
"higher self/ essence/ soul/ etc" and I find it quite satifying in knowledge..
but others "deal with" aliens, angels, and whatever else better
sometimes then themselves.. nothing wrong with this, IF they are in touch
with those source... Don't matter when you get the knowledge if you
feel within to check it...

>
>
>--
>rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
>[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation
>


Seth

--
Seth Cohn - [e-mail] 607-273-2815             |Th?s ?s ?
PO BOX 671  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty|s?bl?m?n?l
Ithaca NY   I hate spiritual discipline. I like spiritual anarchy|.s?g v?r?s
14851                                                            |C?py M?!
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From: [e-mail] (Seth Cohn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Memories of first cause (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 02:41:02 GMT
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Let me state for the record, that I don't agree with MOST of Don
has posted IN THE FORM IT IS IN. I feel there is a grain of truth
here, but disagree with the substance. That said...

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Well Bryan, I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of
>
 heheh, nice jab Don.... :)


>I am well aware of the Pleiadians and the bunkum they "teach" -- little
>matter that it is all stuff that could be dreamed up by any science
>fiction writer with a little imagination, but to actually pin such
>arrant nonsense on entities from the future is pushing things a little.
>By the way, I have as much faith in Ms Marciniak's channelling abilities
>as I have in that of stage magicians to perform their art; after all,
>there is _no_ substantive difference between the two disciplines, except
>that channellers assert that what they are doing is the real McCoy.

One claims to do tricks, the other claims to have truth.
Seems clear to me... the Amazing Randi (good ole Mr. R) might have
trouble with your lumping him into the same class as channelers..

I am not going to defend channeling, since your mind is closed to
idea that ANYTHING could be happening here... I have posted elsewhere on it
and people who are intereted can freely read that.

>
>Really? And how are you aware of this? As a small aside, I might point
>out that not enough solar energy reaches Mars for it to support
>carbon-based life as we know it, thus making the 12 heli-humans figments
>of your feverish imagination.

1) again, channeling is the source, if you would read you would see that.
2) I beleive the asteroids were once a planet with lifeforms,
and so do others... course, you don't but that don't the facts if they are
true.

>
>>Then there was a war in heaven as the expression goes. The original planners
>>left and the second shift came in and re-engineered humans into Adam man and
>>others. Now what they did is scramble the top 10 heli of the DNA so that
>>survival and sexuality was all that was active. The top 10 were basically
>>idle.  This correlates to why we are only using ten percent of our brains. And
>>why we only use ten percent of our 7 and a half foot DNA strand.

I agree with the "war in heaven" bit... but not the rest
as Don states it.. so...

>
>>These second shift creator gods are reptilian in nature and in their
>>exuberance in being able to genetically engineer,  they forgot their
>>connection to first cause and wanted their creations to worship them. That is
>>why there is so much talk about a punishing god in the bible.
>
>Have you ever read a series of books by Harry Harrison called the Eden
>saga or some such? The similarities between his fictitious plot and your
>beliefs are nothing short of amazing...

I read Eden (and the rest by Harrison) and the plots are TOTALLY different
so drop that idea.. you just want to discredit this byu calling
it fiction, and stolen fiction at that...

>
>Well, at least you admit that needing to be saved is a bucket of crud,
>but what of this business of reincarnation? Proof, please. Hell, even an
>intelligent argument, please. What is a given about spiritual
>immortality, by the way, and would you care to recount to us some of
>your memories of first cause?

This paragraph RIGHT here is why I posted.
1) There are LOTS of scientific studies of reincarnation that
are VERY convincing (thought by defination, none are proof positive
since that is NOT possible given the scientific definition of proof)
but I refer you to Stevenson's studies of reincarnation memories
in children, which scholarly enough for even you...

2) As I understand it, our memories are cloudy because we DO not
want to remember... it is a traumatic time, and much denial of the
origins of "beingness" prevents us from remembering just as people
block out child abuse as a youngster...  I would refer you
to my post of Right use of will, which refer to 2 books (channeled
so you won't like them) that are devoted to the story of original cause.
You'll find them to be complete rubbish, since THEY CAN'T BE TRUE by your
definiations.. but I am, learning to remember as a result of
these books...

>
>
>
>Listen, Don, I'm very sorry I wasted my precious time reading your
>posting, and even more sorry that I wasted it in replying. I'd advise
>you to seek psychiatric help or voluntarily commit yourself, thereby
>leaving yourself less open to the advances of shysters and other people
>of dubious repute as your existence worries me, but I won't bother,
>because you won't listen.
>
>Have as happy a life as you can, and don't go believing _everything_
>you're told.
>
>    -- Bryan

Bryan, There are greater things then are dreamt of in your philosophy
and I won't even attempt to convince you. Greater minds (even scientific
ones) have looked into this with an open mind and found nuggets of
gold in them thar hills... Don and I may not agree.. but he is not
crazy... Nor am I (They refused to commit me when I was sucidial
at one point in my life because I was TOO smart and sane to be there
so saiyth the doctors. :)

Have as happy a life as you can... since you have no space in
your life to see things you cannot concieve of existing, though they
are there... and Don't go disbelieving everything you're told.

Seth

--
Seth Cohn - [e-mail] 607-273-2815             |Th?s ?s ?
PO BOX 671  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty|s?bl?m?n?l
Ithaca NY   I hate spiritual discipline. I like spiritual anarchy|.s?g v?r?s
14851                                                            |C?py M?!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: I want to join this newsgroup!!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 19:34:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4010 talk.religion.newage:8674


    If anyone sees this message who is not in the UK, will you
please email me a brief reply.

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 23:07:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
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    Alright, finally !  Now lets see some GIF's along with the original
articles.  With all the film footage and photo's taken, this should be
real easy.

Kc
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 10:45:55 GMT
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Well Bryan thanks for your warm skeptic response.  Its been so long since a
skeptic has responded with such elegance that I was beginning to feel unloved
and deserted. I was really beginning to think all the skeptics had all put me in
their kill file. Skeptics are just inverted Christians, both stuck in their
egos with no concept of their spirituality.  My purpose is to get skeptics and
Christians to quit focusing on their egos which are going to die and start
focusing on the aspects of theirselves that can t die. In that part of
ourselves lies our real purposes for being and our real goals.

Bryan says
>Really? And how are you aware of this? As a small aside, I might point
>out that not enough solar energy reaches Mars for it to support
>carbon-based life as we know it, thus making the 12 heli-humans figments
>of your feverish imagination.

Well I guess I should mention I had a friend come to my house to scan in over
80 computer enhanced photos of the mars face and structures for a forth coming
book. I saw the pyramids and a definite circular structure with a number of
structures on it.  I also know the govt. is working on the Antarctica
remnants.  And they are not about to tell us what they are finding.

>Well, at least you admit that needing to be saved is a bucket of crud,
>but what of this business of reincarnation? Proof, please. Hell, even an
>intelligent argument, please. What is a given about spiritual
>immortality, by the way, and would you care to recount to us some of
>your memories of first cause?

Well gee Bryan it looks like its time for another discussion on reincarnation.
I have been using GSR Biofeedback to assist people to remember their past
lives for over twenty years.  I have done well over 500 people with 90% of
them getting memories of their past lifetimes. I have even assisted them to
recall what they did after the body died. (Just to see if any went to heaven
or hell, damn non did).  I can take you or anyone else reading this into 20 of
more of your past lifetimes. If you really think about it since you were there
living the past life you should be able to remember it, I mean only a dummy
would waste lifetimes worth of learning. I can also take people back to when
they broke away from first cause and created their first creation. But at that
point we were just a ball of light and for most that is a very unreal
experience. Except they are still comparing that first creation with
everything else they create.  Much like taking you back to a life on another
planet or a life when you were on a saucer it will be a very unreal
experience.  So for most I try to stay in the last 1000 years or so and try to
keep their attention on a life on this planet.  Just so it may be a little
real to them.

  So Bryan what if we got together and I assisted you to remember 20 of your
past lifetimes. How could we go about proving it?
Don Showen

Boy I love this net.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 11:17:09 GMT
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rj pietkivitch says

>Something is going on, you're right.  It's called advent "psychism" (for
>those who simply have to have terms for stuff like this) that's what I'd
>call it.  Channeling is distraction for me.  I too channeled for a couple
>of years until I saw through it's disguise.

Well rj I would like to share my opinion of your opinion. :-)  It sounds as I
said before that you have only observed flaky channeling.  You did not have
enough patience or trust in yourself to work out the flakiness. It takes most
channels a long time to clean themselves up and trust what is coming through.
It is also a continous process of staying clean.

But beyond that good channeling is presenting ideas and concepts that are
unheard of  among earth humans.  These can provide rich sources of inspiration,
 upliftment, and empowerment.

And even beyond that.  You were given the opportunity to make this lifetime
the standard bearer of your soul. Meaning that from this lifetime you could
pull in and intregrate your parallel lives, past and future lives and your
multideminsional aspects. To me that is a pretty exciting opportunity,
although no one has to make that choice and few will. I have.  And what do you
do, negate the whole experience and call it psychism. Personally I spent a few
hours observing psychism and it is not in any way related to channeling.

Don Showen
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic reality check
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 20:13:00 GMT
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In a message to All <12 Jan 92 18:42> Redheaded Goddess wrote:

 RG> Wrong!  The humans have their eyes *closed* and are going
 RG> into deeper levels of themselves.  My bet is the cat/dog/animals
 RG> sense/feel this energy that is expanded/created/evoked within
 RG> the human's energy fields and "bask" in it.  It can be quite
 RG> delightful, being in that sea of bliss, you know.

Basking in another creature's M-field, maybe?

Seriously, animal behavior around sympathetic humans (and human behavior around sympathetic animals) could be due to some kind of receptor-function in our (holographic) brains.  We could be picking up pure-animal-comfort from our friendly cats and dogs.  But what are they picking up from us?  They must like it, they keep coming back...

 RG> We are multi-dimensional beings.  And if you are going to talk about
 RG> ets and aliens, it might be a little wisdom on your part to open
 RG> your mind that these ets and aliens do not only exist in the hard
 RG> solid core of human/flesh/humanoid bodies..

Evidence seems to indicate that they do exist this way -- at least when they choose to.

Best,

   Clark



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Philadelphia Experiment?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 23:03:00 GMT
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In a message to All <09 Jan 92 12:07> Michael P. Hartley wrote:

 MPH> From: [e-mail] (Michael P. Hartley)
 MPH> Date: 9 Jan 92 02:13:39 GMT
 MPH> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
 MPH> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 MPH> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 MPH> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
 MPH> (Eric "JUICE" Fritzius) writes:
 >>It wasn't the Idaho.  It was the USS Eldridge.

 MPH>   Thats right...  The Idaho was the primary observation ship.


Hello Michael.  Can you tell us more about this?

Many thanks!

Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 23:09:00 GMT
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In a message to All <09 Jan 92 12:08> [e-mail] wrote:

 Um> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) says:
 >>I didn't follow the last part of the article either.  But one of William
 >>Poundstone's books ("The Big Secrets" or "More Big Secrets") says that
 >>Masons receiving various degrees take oaths consenting to be killed in
 >>various gruesome ways if they reveal secrets.  Of course I have no
 >>idea whether this is true and whether it's ever been carried out.  And I
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good question.  See The Jack the Ripper Casebook by Chief Inspector Donald Rumbelow, re: the 1888 Whitechapel (Ripper) murders.

Whether these sadistic torments have ever been visited on masons in modern times is anyone's guess, I certainly don't know.  But several of the Ripper murders involved disembowelment, and one had a message left behind citing the words of the "Jewes" -- the three masons who volunteered to be tortured to death by King Solomon.  Rumbelow quotes the relevant part of the oath in his book.  Pretty grim stuff.

Nighty-night...

Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 23:20:00 GMT
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In a message to All <09 Jan 92 12:09> Redheaded Goddess wrote:

 RG> From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
 RG> Date: 9 Jan 92 12:32:50 GMT
 RG> Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
 RG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RG> isic146msu.oscos.montana.edu writes a string of angry
 RG> stuff towards me:

 RG> Montana:  Female PMS?  Sounds to me like you have a bad case
 RG> of male menopause.

Dementia praecox?

 RG> Your grandfather was a 33 degree Mason?????  What happened
 RG> to *you*?

Perchance a difference of degree, but not of kind?  I hear it tends to run in families -- but sometimes skips generations.  :-)

 RG> I recently found out that these "gruesome" oaths are quite
 RG> metaphoric and understanding is reached about them as one
 RG> advances (probably in revelation of his inner being).

Let's hope they never are!  Last instance I heard of where they were explicitly linked to a crime, the crime was the Ripper murders in London in 1888!  See my post to Jim Shaffer.  BTW, "Jack the Ripper" was almost certainly Montague Druitt, a ne'er-do-well lawyer from a family of successful surgeons (and freemasons?).

Druitt used his grandfather's postmortem knife (a "ripping knife" in medical parlance) -- the knife was recovered from his office in the Mineries, right by Parliament.  It's in the possession of an English lady who was given the knife by an acquaintance of Chief Insp. Allardyne.  Druitt was also a *dead ringer* for the Duke of Clarence -- their photos show them to be virtually identical -- thus the rumors over the years that "Eddie" was the Ripper.  A constable *talked* to Druitt/"Eddie" less than 50 yards






 from the next-to-last murder site in Mitre Square.

 RG> And I wasn't the one who brought up the JFK issue.
 RG> It is my feeling that there *was* a conspiracy going, but I doubt
 RG> very very much that the Masons were behind it.

More like the Mafia (or 50 jealous husbands?).  The CIA was forced to help cover it up, simply because the Mafiosi who organized the hit team were all contractors for Project Mongoose -- the plot to assassinate Castro.

After looking at your path, I wonder:  Do you work at the Deathstar?  If so, what do you think of the Aspect Experiment stuff flying around this echo?  Just curious.

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Philadelphia Experiment
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 23:38:00 GMT
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In a message to All <09 Jan 92 12:09> f.e.carey wrote:

 f.> From: [e-mail] (f.e.carey)
 f.> Date: 9 Jan 92 16:21:08 GMT
 f.> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
 f.> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 f.> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 f.> Ivan Sanderson yalked about this incident in one of his books - probably
 f.> in the sixties.  I seem to recall that a marked up copy of the book was
 f.> received in the mail by the Defense Department and promptly classified
 f.> at a high level.
 f.> Does anybody remember anything like this?

I do.  Jessup's book (with colored annotations by "Carl Allende") was reproduced in 5-color mimeograph by the ONR in the 1950s.  Several of these mimeographs were subsequently leaked, and Gray Barker published an edition in color.  Unfortunately I don't have a copy but Dr. Sanderson did.

 f.> I don't have the Sanderson book.

Me neither, just a few highly treasured issues of Pursuit.

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: firsthand experience
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 00:26:00 GMT
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In a message to All <13 Jan 92 12:22> david.nodes wrote:

 da> From: [e-mail] (david.nodes)
 da> Date: 13 Jan 92 08:46:39 GMT
 da> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
 da> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 da> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 da> I am somewhat reluctant to post.   I know how skeptical people
 da> can be.  Rightly so I geuss.   There seems so much fooling around
 da> in this group.  Thanks to those who take this seriously.
 da>

David, how long did this experience last?  Also, has it recurred?

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: stupid articles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 08:24:00 GMT
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In a message to All <18 Jan 92 12:30> James 'Kibo' Parry wrote:

 J'P> From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
 J'P> Date: 18 Jan 92 08:58:48 GMT
 J'P> Organization: A room filled with typography (in Boston's Back Bay)
 J'P> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 J'P> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy

 J'P> And it's being PLANTED there by the MEN IN BLACK who want to HIDE the
 J'P> TRUTH from the USENET!

 J'P> SATIRE or CONSPIRACY?  ENQUIRING MINDS want to KNOW!

According to Section 3.8.4.2 of NSD-47, Satire IS Conspiracy, and you're under arrest.

Have a nice day :-)



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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 00:31:00 GMT
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In a message to All <13 Jan 92 12:22> Ryk E Spoor wrote:

 RES> From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
 RES> Date: 13 Jan 92 07:45:13 GMT
 RES> Organization: University of Pittsburgh
 RES> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RES> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RES> In article <[e-mail]>
 RES> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
 >>Ryk Spoor writes:  "if they (meaning the ets) don't exist
 >>on the real plane, then talking about them is futile."
 >>

You're at U. of Pittsburgh, and you *really* believe this??!

 RES>        If *I* can't detect them, then
 RES> whatever "reality" they exist in has no
 RES> contact with mine, and therefore does
 RES> not matter. This IS the only real plane
 RES> FOR HUMAN BEINGS. We exist on this
 RES> earth, in this spacetime. Any others that
 RES> can't contact ours in a meaningful,
 RES> detectable way might as well not exist.

"Why should we have anything to do with this guy Columbus?"

"We live in Europe, and we can't see *anything* when we look west.  If there's anything there, we have no contact with it, and therefore it does not matter.  Europe is the only REAL place for HUMAN BEINGS.  Anyone else who can't contact us in a meaningful way might as well not exist.  Besides, if we try to go there, we'll fall off the earth if the Sea Monsters don't get us first."

 RES> Sure, they might be there, but then it's the same as looking at the blank
 RES> sheet of paper; yep, it might well be a
 RES> picture of a polar bear in a blizzard,
 RES> but if I can't tell the difference then it remains a blank sheet of paper.

In the words of the First Caliph of Alexandria:  "If all these books support the Koran, then the Koran is enough.  If any of these books gainsay the Koran, then they *deserve* to be burned anyway."

The Caliph then burned tens of thousands of classical and ancient manuscripts contained in the entire Library of Alexandria, ca. 880 A.D.  3,000 years of scholarship, history, medicine and literature heated the entire city for the whole winter.

 RES>        If you can't SHOW it to me, in some form or other, then it can't
 RES> be REALITY; it can only be an opinion or a philosophy that has no more
 RES> validity than a billion others... and consequently little utility.

Somehow I get the impression that you wouldn't believe it if you saw it.  Are you familiar with the theories of Sheldrake and Bohm?  If so, what do you think of them?

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 1644 UFO Sightinh
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 08:27:00 GMT
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In a message to All <18 Jan 92 12:30> Nick Palombo wrote:

I
 NP> logged on today, it mentioned that on this date in 1644, the first UFO
 NP> sighting recorded in the USA happened in Boston.

 NP> Does anyone know any more about this event?

I remember reading about it somewhere.  I thought it was in the 1700s, though.

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 13:28:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Christians to quit focusing on their egos which are going to die and start
>focusing on the aspects of theirselves that can t die. In that part of
>
OK guys, you heard it. Quit squibbling, and write useful scientific
papers with reproducable results.
>
>
>or hell, damn non did).  I can take you or anyone else reading this into 20 of
>more of your past lifetimes. If you really think about it since you were there

Is there anything to the story that if you repeat this, all those
previous lifetimes start overlapping?

>  So Bryan what if we got together and I assisted you to remember 20 of your
>past lifetimes. How could we go about proving it?

>Boy I love this net.

Prove what?  That you or Brian has a fertile imagination? In your case
it's proved already, and Philosopher-Kings these days also are well
endowed with fantasy.

Note the follow-up line. (A newsgroup that I never read).
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From: [e-mail] (Ron Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Did a little research on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 10:59:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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I suspect this is old hat to most of the readers of this group, but the
question of alien abductions was examined in the yearly "fringe science"
(their term, not mine. no flames, please) program on Quirks and Quarks
last year.  For the uninitiated, Quirks and Quarks is CBC Radio's weekly
science program.  Zeta Reticuli figured prominently in the story, so I
thought I'd add my 20 millibux worth.  This is all from memory, so any
inaccuracies are mine.

ZR1 and ZR2 are not considered to be graviationally bound, and are about
two light-weeks apart.  They were brought up during the program because of
details from a September 1961 abduction incident.  I won't talk about the
incident itself; that is covered well in _The Interrupted Journey_ by John
G.  Fuller (Dial Press, New York, 1966.)  Apparently, during the abduction
the woman was shown a star map.  There was no scale given and no
orientation specified, but there were lines connecting the stars that were
on "trade" routes or "exploration" routes.  A copy of the map was included
in the Fuller's book, and when it was published, astromomers tried to find
a match between the map and stars in our neighbourhood.  In the mid-70's
(I think) an amateur astronomer, working from a 3-D "beads on wires"
model, found such a match.  Interestingly, to spot it, she had to remove
from her model all stars except for old, single, quiescent, main sequence
yellow dwarves.  All such stars in our neighbourhood were present in the
map and only those stars.  In addition, all the route lines were
consistent with minimum distances.  Her map was subsequently published in
Astronomy magazine (I can't remember the exact date, mid-70's is the best
I can do.)  The Zeta Reticuli pair was most prominent in the original map,
and many of the lines radiated from one of the two stars.  Old Sol is on a
"trade" route.  (Has anybody tried to sell you a used saucer lately? :-)

The program tried to present a journalistically balanced view of abduction
episodes.  A neurologist was interviewed;  he attributed abduction events
to hallucinations induced by hyperactivity in the hippocampus and the
amygdala.  An historian who has interviewed ~50 abductees (~300 episodes)
was also interviewed;  he says there are too many similarities in fine
details between events to make it possible to dismiss them as
hallucinations.  He didn't discuss many of the details, doesn't want to
spoil future data collection with fakes.

I suspect that the show's host was more affected by it than he would
(probably) care to admit.  A few months later, there was a piece on the
establishment of the first southern hemisphere SETI installation (in
Chile, I think), and the host brought up Zeta Reticuli specifically.
Reticulum is a southern hemisphere constellation.  The interviewee said he
wasn't privy to the targeting schedule, and it was left at that.

My impression of the star map is that one could probably find a good match
between *any* set of points drawn on paper and an actual star field, if
one looked hard enough.  On the other hand, this is the only solid match
that's ever been found (there is one in Fuller's book, but it's way off.)
I'd like to hear from a statistician on this point in particular, but if
anyone has further information on the analysis of the map, feel free to
jump in.

Fun stuff, but who really knows?

-RJH ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Memories of first cause (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 17:02:35 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Seth Cohn) writes:

>Let me state for the record, that I don't agree with MOST of Don
>has posted IN THE FORM IT IS IN. I feel there is a grain of truth
>here, but disagree with the substance. That said...

>>>Well Bryan, I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of

>heheh, nice jab Don.... :)

Well, I'm always interested in what makes people tick. If it happens to
be alien visitors that people like yorself and Don espouse, then so be
it. I still hold to my opinions.

>>I am well aware of the Pleiadians and the bunkum they "teach" -- little
>>matter that it is all stuff that could be dreamed up by any science
>>fiction writer with a little imagination, but to actually pin such
>>arrant nonsense on entities from the future is pushing things a little.
>>By the way, I have as much faith in Ms Marciniak's channelling abilities
>>as I have in that of stage magicians to perform their art; after all,
>>there is _no_ substantive difference between the two disciplines, except
>>that channellers assert that what they are doing is the real McCoy.

>One claims to do tricks, the other claims to have truth.
>Seems clear to me... the Amazing Randi (good ole Mr. R) might have
>trouble with your lumping him into the same class as channelers..

The Amazing Randi quite happily admits that what he practises is
illusion. Channelers don't.

>I am not going to defend channeling, since your mind is closed to
>idea that ANYTHING could be happening here... I have posted elsewhere on it
>and people who are intereted can freely read that.

My mind is not closed; I just happen to dislike leaving it open enough
for me to become an advocate of every half-brained plan for humanity's
future, past, and present that comes along.

>>Really? And how are you aware of this? As a small aside, I might point
>>out that not enough solar energy reaches Mars for it to support
>>carbon-based life as we know it, thus making the 12 heli-humans figments
>>of your feverish imagination.

>1) again, channeling is the source, if you would read you would see that.

Please point me to some scientific papers on channeling. I don't want to
have to go look at the Mystical section in my local bookstore, as I
think you'd agree that what I'd see there would be mostly hype.

>2) I beleive the asteroids were once a planet with lifeforms,
>and so do others... course, you don't but that don't the facts if they are
>true.

Sorry, but that sentence doesn't parse. Assuming you have evidence that
the asteroids once supported life in the place of nice fluffy complacent
opinion, I'd be glad to evaluate it for you.

[Don Showen quotes deleted]

>I agree with the "war in heaven" bit... but not the rest
>as Don states it.. so...

>>>These second shift creator gods are reptilian in nature and in their
>>>exuberance in being able to genetically engineer,  they forgot their
>>>connection to first cause and wanted their creations to worship them. That is
>>>why there is so much talk about a punishing god in the bible.

>>Have you ever read a series of books by Harry Harrison called the Eden
>>saga or some such? The similarities between his fictitious plot and your
>>beliefs are nothing short of amazing...

>I read Eden (and the rest by Harrison) and the plots are TOTALLY different
>so drop that idea.. you just want to discredit this byu calling
>it fiction, and stolen fiction at that...

OK, so the plot of the Eden trilogy differs in some fundamental ways
from the theories you espouse. However, the burden is on you to prove
your point. By the way, where have the reptilian gods gone lately?

>>Well, at least you admit that needing to be saved is a bucket of crud,
>>but what of this business of reincarnation? Proof, please. Hell, even an
>>intelligent argument, please. What is a given about spiritual
>>immortality, by the way, and would you care to recount to us some of
>>your memories of first cause?

>This paragraph RIGHT here is why I posted.
>1) There are LOTS of scientific studies of reincarnation that
>are VERY convincing (thought by defination, none are proof positive
>since that is NOT possible given the scientific definition of proof)
>but I refer you to Stevenson's studies of reincarnation memories
>in children, which scholarly enough for even you...

Quite possibly, although I have no great faith in them either. Anyway, I
won't be so pushy as to expect total proof; proof of your theories
beyond reasonable doubt is all I'd like.

[Seth refers me to two books]

>You'll find them to be complete rubbish, since THEY CAN'T BE TRUE by your
>definiations.. but I am, learning to remember as a result of
>these books...

I make no assumptions about the truth or untruth of channeling. However,
a bunch of books written by pop religionists will not convince me.
Something along the lines of a _number_ of papers exploring the actual
workings of channeling (not even the why, just the what and the how)
would give your side of things much more credence in my eyes.

[stuff deleted]

>Bryan, There are greater things then are dreamt of in your philosophy
>and I won't even attempt to convince you. Greater minds (even scientific
>ones) have looked into this with an open mind and found nuggets of
>gold in them thar hills... Don and I may not agree.. but he is not
>crazy... Nor am I (They refused to commit me when I was sucidial
>at one point in my life because I was TOO smart and sane to be there
>so saiyth the doctors. :)

I shouldn't call you crazy, I suppose, and in the absence of anything to
support your claims that the average rational person would accept, I'll
be even nicer and call you nothing, Seth. After all, it is your .sig
that says "practise random acts of kindness and senseless acts of
beauty," no?

>Have as happy a life as you can... since you have no space in
>your life to see things you cannot concieve of existing, though they
>are there... and Don't go disbelieving everything you're told.

Believe me, my life is quite happy as it stands. I have plenty of space
in my life to see things I _can_ conceive of existing, and if you show
me anything that even faintly rocks my skeptical world view, I'll let
you know. However, I can't really see this happening...

    -- Bryan

--                          No Jesus, know peace. Know Jesus, no peace.
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!alchemy.tn.cornell.edu!seth
From: [e-mail] (Seth Cohn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Memories of first cause (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 18:13:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Alchemy International
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan) writes:
>The Amazing Randi quite happily admits that what he practises is
>illusion. Channelers don't.

No, Channeler don't because they KNOW they aren't. I question the
information I get very strongly, and refuse to just buy it.
But when stuff comes up that I cannot porve either way, given the
past record of the stuff that I can prove TO MY satifaction,
I tend to give my source the benefit of the doubt.

>Please point me to some scientific papers on channeling. I don't want to
>have to go look at the Mystical section in my local bookstore, as I
>think you'd agree that what I'd see there would be mostly hype.

Agreed, but there a few books which get lumped in there which aren't
mere hype. As for papers, I'm not aware of any refereed journals which
have studied the phenomenon SINCE by definiation, this stuff
is bogus (aka we won't waste time since it must be nonsense)

I would refer you to a book called "Channeling" by J . Klimo
(Tarcher 1987) which is calm rational looks at channeling as a whole
and points out both criticism and interesting correlations.

.
>
>>2) I beleive the asteroids were once a planet with lifeforms,
>>and so do others... course, you don't but that don't the facts if they are
>>true.
>
>Sorry, but that sentence doesn't parse. Assuming you have evidence that
>the asteroids once supported life in the place of nice fluffy complacent
>opinion, I'd be glad to evaluate it for you.

Should say "of course you don't beleive that, but that don't change the
fact if they are" (missed that in my quick posting..)

I have no evidence other then historical records/legends and so forth,
none of which will PROVE in any way it is true of not.. But given a consisent
story, backed by channeled information, that I later discovered
was partially (fully?) accurate thru investigation, I have no reason
to beleive otherwise.  I believe that there was a planet there, which
had a major explosion (nuclear maybe) and fell to pieces...This fits
with storys of there being a planet at this orbit in ancient
(prebabylonian) astronomy...

>
>>>Well, at least you admit that needing to be saved is a bucket of crud,
>>>but what of this business of reincarnation? Proof, please. Hell, even an
>>>intelligent argument, please. What is a given about spiritual
>>>immortality, by the way, and would you care to recount to us some of
>>>your memories of first cause?
>
>>This paragraph RIGHT here is why I posted.
>>1) There are LOTS of scientific studies of reincarnation that
>>are VERY convincing (thought by defination, none are proof positive
>>since that is NOT possible given the scientific definition of proof)
>>but I refer you to Stevenson's studies of reincarnation memories
>>in children, which scholarly enough for even you...
>
>Quite possibly, although I have no great faith in them either. Anyway, I
>won't be so pushy as to expect total proof; proof of your theories
>beyond reasonable doubt is all I'd like.

Beyond reasonable doubt is a tough nut to crack.. I do recommend you
check out Stevenson's works, also the many studies on Near death experiences
tend to touch on a reincarnational aspect of things... I'm sure there are
others but can't think of any right now. Most of the "proof" I have
seen tend to non repeatable events, thus no papers are written on it.
There are many recorded cases of "information" gained thru regression, that
is later discovered to be accurate and unknow up to that point.
(I recall one case where a church basement was discovered which had
been plastered over and closed for ages, and forgetten about by the
current staff. No one knew of this vault till a regression pulled
up a life time there, and when it was looked into, the predicted
vault was in fact there. Proof, NO, possible explanation abound,
but I tend to use Occam's razor, that if 100 cases can all be explained
by this one theory, then it is fairly sound.

>
>[Seth refers me to two books]
>
>>You'll find them to be complete rubbish, since THEY CAN'T BE TRUE by your
>>definiations.. but I am, learning to remember as a result of
>>these books...
>
>I make no assumptions about the truth or untruth of channeling. However,
>a bunch of books written by pop religionists will not convince me.
>Something along the lines of a _number_ of papers exploring the actual
>workings of channeling (not even the why, just the what and the how)
>would give your side of things much more credence in my eyes.

no assumption? You called them frauds in the beginning of this post.
COME ON!  Answer me this: how many scientist do you know who
would spend the TIME, money and so forth exploring this? How many
do you think would ever admit they considered it valid...
let alone risk a reputation on it.  Do check out the Klimo book,
many "degreed" people are quoted in it.

>
>
>>Bryan, There are greater things then are dreamt of in your philosophy
>>and I won't even attempt to convince you. Greater minds (even scientific
>>ones) have looked into this with an open mind and found nuggets of
>>gold in them thar hills... Don and I may not agree.. but he is not
>>crazy... Nor am I (They refused to commit me when I was sucidial
>>at one point in my life because I was TOO smart and sane to be there
>>so saiyth the doctors. :)
>
>I shouldn't call you crazy, I suppose, and in the absence of anything to
>support your claims that the average rational person would accept, I'll
>be even nicer and call you nothing, Seth. After all, it is your .sig
>that says "practise random acts of kindness and senseless acts of
>beauty," no?

(Laugh) fair enough. :)
>
>>Have as happy a life as you can... since you have no space in
>>your life to see things you cannot concieve of existing, though they
>>are there... and Don't go disbelieving everything you're told.
>
>Believe me, my life is quite happy as it stands. I have plenty of space
>in my life to see things I _can_ conceive of existing, and if you show
>me anything that even faintly rocks my skeptical world view, I'll let
>you know. However, I can't really see this happening...
>
>    -- Bryan

Do email/post when/if you read the Klimo book, I'm interested
in what you make of it, BESIDES the "fact" that it is nonsense..

>
>--                          No Jesus, know peace. Know Jesus, no peace.
                             Cute quote.

Seth

--
Seth Cohn - [e-mail] 607-273-2815             |Th?s ?s ?
PO BOX 671  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty|s?bl?m?n?l
Ithaca NY   I hate spiritual discipline. I like spiritual anarchy|.s?g v?r?s
14851                                                            |C?py M?!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!rjp1
From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 16:53:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
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Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:8688 alt.alien.visitors:4027 sci.skeptic:19781

Followups are directed to talk.religion.newage...

)> Seth, right now, I am engaged in the right use of my will.
)>
)> moi
)
) And I applaud that fact.. I am not angry that you posted, in fact,
) glad since I enjoyed responding to it...
)
) Seth

Great!  Not that it mattered..  But glad you've resolved it as well.
Enjoyment was *definitely* there with me.  I could've taken one last
scan over what I posted, but that gets endless.  Feel it; heal it.

Basically, what I find is that there are other issues at bay here.
I don't know that they will all be addressed here or later, but each
moment brings new insight.  Perhaps nothing will be addressed?

The thing is that I liked your response.  Challenge.  Not many, but
just a few do now and then.  Otherwise, I might be better off talking
into a vacuum.

I've recently come to understand the meaning of my dreams of Wakinyan,
the Thunder-Being.  It has changed my entire outlook and more.  What
this means is, don't take my word for it; use and find your own words
to fill your own heart and mind with meaning.

)>> I question your claim of "misguidence"
)>
)> Good.  Besides I wasn't claiming it.  Just stating my opinion.
)
) Saying "misguidence" is claiming. Yes, your opinion, but it is still
) a claim...

Yes, you're right in one sense.  If I am to maintain my stance I should
expect other claims or challenges (or anything really) to my personal
stance or position.  It was good to be reminded of that.

)> Something is going on, you're right.  It's called advent "psychism"
)
) I have validated the existence of external beings (ie. NOT in my head,
) as you clearly feel this stuff is taking place...) I could not prove

For me it isn't proving or disproving, it's alignment.  Advent psychism
is what you've described as well.  I would say that the mind is imbued
and subject to psychic impressions from within, that is, from within our
own inner psychic (Laya) center (realm), which is common to all of us at
some depth in our collective unconscious Mind.  I think we also face an
enormous amount of psychic energy from the external world as well.  Where
you ARE aligned along the arc of descent or ascent, upon the "spiral" of
evolution, may in fact, give an insight into the various amounts of inner
vs. outer psychic energies that you or I (or anyone), may have and thus
have to deal with and/or act upon during our individual lifetimes.

To prove or disprove is not the point.  My stance is to say to the buyer,
beware.  When you hear your own voice within, that is the one.

)> I have not forgotten either.  I do not impose self-limitation
)> nor dis-unify my own psychic part of my being.
)
) I have also learned to separate the chaff and the wheat.. nor do I limit
) myself and my personal abilities (in fact, I am always learning to
) expand them a bit more) but channeling helps me to do so, rather then
) hinders me.

I have no qualms about that.  I like to think that there are many ways
and many tools to help us out along our path.  Channeling may be one of
them, or it may not be.  But this is true about anything we may do.

)> That's fine with me.  Blind faith, in anything, including the words and
)> books of channelers, is an ignorant way.
)
) Heheheh, given that I find one channeled work which claims to be by God
) to be the best source of growth I know of, and that I have accepted it
) as such... WITHOUT blind faith, but with validation over the years..
) I can answer this by saying "It ain't the ONLY truth.. but it may still
) be truth... "

Well, I can't argue with you on your own findings.  That is up to you
to decide always.  How many paths does it take?  All of them.  Faith to
me implies a certain division or duality that conspires with life.  My
own faith is defined by my "having to believe" and by my "effort to Will".
It is not in the sense of worship, nor in my having to rely upon some
other being, entity, or "God".  To me, truth is a given, belief is a must,
and faith is to Will.  How else am I to move the mountain?


--
bob pietkivitch      |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!rjp1
From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 18:18:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Lines: 81
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4028 talk.religion.newage:8689 sci.skeptic:19782

I've directed folloups to t.r.na...

>> Something is going on, you're right.  It's called advent "psychism"
>>
>> Channeling is distraction for me.
>>
>> Bob

> Well rj I would like to share my opinion of your opinion. :-)  It sounds as I
> said before that you have only observed flaky channeling.  You did not have
> enough patience or trust in yourself to work out the flakiness. It takes most
> channels a long time to clean themselves up and trust what is coming through.
> It is also a continous process of staying clean.

I can understand what you're saying.  When I did my channeling in 1972,
there was direct communication from beings that I and my friends perceived
to be from Atlantis.  Back then, it was known as trance-mediumship and
there weren't many books or people knowledgeable on the subject that we
could learn from.  It wasn't a matter of trust or being cleansed enough
to handle the information that poured into us.  There were three of us
altogether that channeled these Altanteans.  Once we made contact, we
were veritable founts of information from another place and another time.
We wrote down all sorts of things, from alphabets to spiritual hierarchies.

We were also given a set of "cards" (ally forms, if you will) that
represented various levels and symbolic systems of knowledge and wisdom.
There were 4 suits or quarters assigned to each type of card and one of
my friends painted their likeness on 6x9 pieces of wood.  I held and used
the ally that was perceived by us to be the Black or Dark Fox.  This was
a most powerful ally, and in reality and hindsight, I know now that we were
not really prepared or strong enough to handle this situation.  But it was
a learning and had effectively "stopped my world".  My channeling had
brought be beyond my wildest dreams and then it was no longer of any use.

> But beyond that good channeling is presenting ideas and concepts that are
> unheard of among earth humans. These can provide rich sources of inspiration,
> upliftment, and empowerment.

That may be true.  But remember, it is all part and parcel of the psychic
realm.  This is not to say that it is all contained within the person's
head who is channeling.  Psychic reality in my estimation, is found both
within and without.  But like physical reality, it is a reflective state
of being.  This is what I mean when I say it is a distraction and that
I've sought to go beyond psychism.  It is far more appealing and valuable
to me to transcend the psychic realm and it's doings, to transcend the dual
nature of 'mind and body'.

A physical body can only "do" so much, and it follows that within the
psychic realm, there is also just so much one can do.  Channeling is a
tool that is useful for some people to scope out the boundaries of the
psychic realm.  Once you've done that, you may see or understand where
I'm coming from when I say my path is to transcend.  But I can only speak
for myself.

> And even beyond that.  You were given the opportunity to make this lifetime
> the standard bearer of your soul. Meaning that from this lifetime you could
> pull in and intregrate your parallel lives, past and future lives and your
> multideminsional aspects. To me that is a pretty exciting opportunity,
> although no one has to make that choice and few will. I have.  And what do you
> do, negate the whole experience and call it psychism. Personally I spent a few
> hours observing psychism and it is not in any way related to channeling.
>
> Don Showen

Well, you can only speak for yourself from your own understanding of what
you've experienced as your reality.  I've seen many of my past lifetimes
and I've experienced them all occuring at once.  It was like a cup being
filled.  That's the best analogy I can find to describe it.  I do not feel
that I am negating anything, I'm simply defining my own reality as it has
been revealed unto me.  Channeling activity is a psychic manifestation
because without a mind to enter and/or direct and/or to start and stop the
activity, it simply will not happen.  This just describes where the process
takes place and does not make it anything more or less than anything else.

At the risk of repeating myself, when you hear your own voice from within,
that is the one.


--
rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation
Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 18:55:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Does anyone know how Don Showen makes his living?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: More on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 19:00:42 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
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From: Simon Fraser University (re: Zeta2)

>5.53m   Spectral Type G1V   Color Index 0.60   Distance 33 ly

>Both stars are dwarfs. They are five arcminutes apart on the sky, a
>separation of only 1/20 of a light year in that plane. It appears, given
>the assumedly trigometrical parallaxes of these stars, that this is not
>a binary system. Radial velocities would be of some interest here. Does
>anyone have those?

A twentieth of a ly is close for non-binaries (Alpha Cen. is almost 4.5 ly
from us), but this could be a projection effect; radial velocities could
help determine if Zeta1 and Zeta2 *are* orbiting each other.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: stupid articles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Jan 92 22:52:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology,alt.slack,alt.alien.visitors
Organization: A room filled with typography (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>> I like an occasional bit of satire as much as anyone else, but the amount
>> of garbage in this newsgroup is getting out of hand.
>>
>> --
>>  *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
>>  Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
>>  37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
>>  Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
>
>Stop posting then.
>
>Iain.

Personally, I find the 'serious' postings in this group just as
entertaining as the 'silly' ones.  Did you know that this group has the
highest proportion of people who put the subject line in ALL CAPS WITH
AT LAEST ONE TYPO ??????//

It's like "BiFF D0ES UF0L0GY".

Hell, it's even weirder in here than in alt.slack or alt.religion.kibology!

--
..................    ...................................................
James "Kibo" Parry    271 Dartmouth St #3D, Boston MA 02116 [phone]
[e-mail]    Independent graphic designer and typeface designer.
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From: [e-mail] (Bryan Neil O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 21:01:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organisation: Faulty Logic & Incomplete Proof Society

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:

>Does anyone know how Don Showen makes his living?

Of course; he's a comedian. I thought that much was pretty obvious.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 21:12:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
says:
>
>    Alright, finally !  Now lets see some GIF's along with the original
>articles.  With all the film footage and photo's taken, this should be
>real easy.
>
>Kc

If this is an ongoing phenomena, I will personally go out there and film
it.  It's only about 100 miles away from me...

However, there was a similar incident according to a local several years ago
that turned out to be a bunch of teenagers and a couple ultralight planes
fitted with lights.  I have yet to see anything on the one Scranton TV
station I receive though but then again I'm not exactly a TV addict...

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ncrcom!ncrlnk!ncr-sd!SanDiego.NCR.COM!tortuga!kraus
From: [e-mail] (David (Dave) Kraus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Channeling valid? (was Re: Flying Serpents
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 16:37:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Owner)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David (Dave) Kraus)
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4034 talk.religion.newage:8695 sci.skeptic:19791

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Seth Cohn) writes:

Concerning his belief in channeling:

}Like I said, you can feel whatever you want, and I am not trying to
}convince you. My view is different.  I can accept that other's don't agree.
}and in fact don't WANT them to automattically agree me, if they don't
}VALIDATE the info, they are following in blind faith, which I abhor..

I applaud this attitude. Many of us, including me, could learn a little
from this.

}I use my mind, and find it "tuned" better by the info I get from chanelling
}(both my own and others) far more then ANY other source of wisdom
}I have found.  I question, and I find the answers all fit.... granted
}the answers aren't what "society" accepts, but I find they work for
}me... and they explain the world in ways that help me to deal with it....
}Or to steal a line: "reality" as society accepts it, is for those who
}can't handle the channeled truth.. (big grin)

What society accepts and what is true are often different. Some refuse
to see, others are reluctant to see, and others see things that aren't
there, but over time the truth wiggles its way to the forefront.

If I wanted to learn to channel, what would be my next step. Any books,
classes, other things that you would recommend?


====  David R. Kraus ============ | "If 6 turned out to be 9,
|     [phone]              |  ......I don't mind.  "
|                                 |
|   [e-mail]   |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!swells
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 22:11:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 42
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4035 talk.religion.newage:8696 sci.skeptic:19792

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Well Bryan, I am going to pretend you are really interested. Instead of
>quoting I am going to give my interpretation of what I have been learning from
>the Pleiadians. For those who don't know the Pleiadians are a group of
>entities from the future who are being channeled by Barbara Marciniak.  I
>consider them our future selves and their more than 200 tapes are truly a
>cosmic university.  I have listened to about 60 or 70 of their tapes and will
>distill what I have put together from these tapes.  It is an incredibly
>beautiful teaching that is designed to lead one to full self empowerment. I
>will be at one of their weekends on Feb. 1 & 2 at Lake Tahoe.
>
>Infinite love, peace and joy!!! Don Showen

So, basically, Mr. Showen gives us this incredible story that asserts
that everything people (presumably christians) of another religion
believes is totally incorrect, that our interpretation of history
is a big sham/scam, and there is really no way to prove any of what
he has revealed to us at this point.

throughout his whole post he implies, "I am right and you are wrong.
if you don't agree with me you are stupid and gullible.  I have
privileged information which must be absolute truth because everything
other religions teaches me is stupid.  I am so enlightened.  I am
so happy that I am, too - why can you all not see this, and follow
the path I have chosen as well?"

you see, mr. showen, you are not really saying anything basically
different than what almost every (if not every) other religion says,
which is, "all you know is wrong, and this is the only path to
truth."  and "gee, how enlightened i am - look everyone!"

i can stand here and say with just as much conviction as you have
that there is no god, no soul, no supernatural, and no magic, and
that i am right and everyone else is wrong.  what have i achieved?
nothing.

so why should i believe one person of extreme conviction over
another, given that each one claims things which cannot be proven
to my satisfaction?

sew
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Past Lives Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 19:15:35 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 90
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19794 alt.alien.visitors:4036 talk.religion.newage:8697

Reprinted from San Rafeal Independent Journal
Tuesday, November 16, 1976

Poking into people's past lives
By Pat Angle

     Don Showen has been blown up on a South Pacific island, had his tongue
cut out and been tied to a  tree and knifed to death by a gang of kids.
    But don t send sympathy cards to his family  all three painful and fatal
experiences occurred in Showen s past lives.  I guess I m just lucky,  he joked
the other day.
      This time around. the 33-year-old Mill Valley man is enjoying a relatively
placid existence as a $25-per session reincarnation counselor.
     Amid plants, pillows and hanging lamps in a comfortable room at his home
at 35A Lomita Drive. Showen helps people get in touch with prior lives It s
called  past incarnation awareness assessment  and Showen has certificates from
two schools of metaphysical counseling  one in Los Angeles and the other in
Portland  which say he is qualified to practice the technique.
      Almost everybody who comes to me wants to find out they were somebody
famous like Cleopatra or Jesus Christ,  Showen said with a grin. They re really
disappointed to find out they were just peasants or something.
      But I think the fact I ve never interviewed anybody who was famous in a
past life in more than 5OO counseling sessions tends to prove that what people
remember about other lives isn t just fantasy,  he added.
     Showen believes that almost everyone has lived more than once and that
people often can benefit by delving into their used lives
     For one thing, according to the counselor past experiences can provide
insights into current troubles One overweight man who came in for counseling
found he d been rich in one previous life, but desperately poor in another, the
child of lepers, and had died of starvation at age 6.  He was overeating to make
up for that last life,  Showen said.
     He also contends that shortly after death each individual makes
decisions about his or her next life which will carry over into that existence
and have a definite impact.
     He remembers one young woman who discovered in her last life she d been
a man killed by Indians after being forced to watch his wife and children
murdered by them.  She told me she d decided to get back at Indians,  Showen
recalled.  Finding that out really surprised her because she d just ended one of
two really disastrous romantic relationships she d had  both with Indians.
     After 500 reincarnation interviews, Showen said there appears to be
certain correlations between past and present events in people s lives.
     For example. he said people who suffer from migraine headaches often
discover they ve been decapitated in another life. And those who are afraid of
water probably drowned once, while others afraid of crowds may have been burned
at the stake.  People who were burned had to watch groups of people really
(excited) at their dying and so they hate crowds.   he explained.
     Despite the  till death do us part  passage in the marriage ceremony.
families tend to stick together in life after life, according to Showen.
Husbands and wives come back as brother and sister, mother and daughter, father
and son or even in the same relationship.
      One friend of mine found out her son was her father; the boy had been
conceived on the long drive home from his grandfather s funeral. And one guy who
had what he thought were homosexual feelings for his brother learned the two of
them had been man and wife in another life.
     Showen has had some particularly interesting cases, including a 20-
year-old girl with long, blond hair who determined she d been an African
chieftain in her past incarnation.
     Then, of course, there was the man having trouble trusting people; he
found out why by perusing past lives. In one, he d been a sheriff killed in a
street gunfight after the deputy he d depended on to back him up didn t show,
Showen said. And in another existence the man had been a crewman on a flying
saucer and had accidentally blown up a planet because he d trusted another
crewman s computations.
The technique Showen shows is a very simple one;  he asks people questions about
their past lives and urges them to give the first answer that pops into their
minds. The individual who comes for counseling holds in his hand a gadget called
a galvanic skin response meter, a biofeedback device which measures the degree
of a person s emotional arousal .
    When a person who talks about other existences shows a decided emotional
response, that s an indication he s talking about a genuine experience,
according to Showen.
     He usually begins by asking an individual about his last death  because
that s usually the most exciting part of most people s lives  and so most easy
to recall.
      Some people have a favorite way to die; one guy died by being frozen to
death six times.
     The death question posed to a reporter produced a persistent mental red
glow which, with a little assistance and encouragement from Showen, finally
turned into a forest fire.
     A few more questions and the truth was out: the reporter had last lived
as a Bulgarian horse trainer who d died in the fire in 1789 while chasing some
loose horses.
    Despite such exciting disclosures Showen is not content to take people
on trips into the past; he hopes soon to be able to usher them into the future
as well.
      If you can get an idea of what you ll be like in the year 2100, tune
into the talents and abilities you ll have then, why shouldn t you be able to
use them now?  he asked.  Maybe you ll have great psychic abilities or invent
something to make rain 150 years from today. So why not try to make it happen
now?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!batcomputer!alchemy.tn.cornell.edu!seth
From: [e-mail] (Seth Cohn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: How to channel- sources of info (was Re: Channeling valid?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 22:59:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Alchemy International
Lines: 55
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4037 talk.religion.newage:8698 sci.skeptic:19795
Nntp-Posting-Host: alchemy.tn.cornell.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David (Dave) Kraus) writes:
>
>If I wanted to learn to channel, what would be my next step. Any books,
>classes, other things that you would recommend?
>

Well, depends on the person, since each person resonates in different ways.
Some I might recommend Meditation to start with, to learn to calm the
mind down. Others don't need that. Some people need a teacher to help
them with this stuff to start with, others don't.  For instance,
I used to meditate somewhat, but not regularly, and I studied channelling
not to do it, but to understand it. WHen I decided I wanted to, I couldn't
let go enough to do it.  I only began when I wasn;'t expecting it to
happen (during a hypnotic regression) and have been able to reach back to
that state ever since.

As a general rule, I would recommend the following as the best
sources to learn HOW, as opposed to about. "Channeling" by Jon Klimo
is one of the best "about" books I can recommend.

1) Opening to Channel by Sanyana Roman and Duane Packer
   this is a balanced approach to the whole thing, without any (much?)
   dogma, and much experience.  They teach classes also.
    (H.J. Kramer 1987)

2) Attend some public and private sessions with a variety of
channels. Figure out who feels like the best teacher for you, and
ask them. Most channels are willing to teach the skill. Some
(the more famous/expensive ones) probably will charge morefor less
whereal the lesser ones will tend to give you a more personal approach.

3) READ channeling by as many different sources as you can
 (or listen to cassette tapes of them) Most channels explain how they
started, and so forth. Most stories are similar in many facets.
ANd listening to a variety of sources enables you
to learn to discern the junk from the gold. I am the first to say
that I do not like the content of certain channels and consdier them
worthless. I will not get into WHO since that is not relavant here.
But the main guideline is look for intelligence and willingness to
explain fully.  Most of the junky sources tend to spout dribble
and not want to talk clearly.  This doesn't mean that channeled sources
don't get into tough topics which can be confusing, but that
they attempt to EXPLAIN the material so that you understrandf it,
not merely talk forthe sake of talking.

Hope this helps.

Seth


--
Seth Cohn - [e-mail] 607-273-2815             |Th?s ?s ?
PO BOX 671  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty|s?bl?m?n?l
Ithaca NY   I hate spiritual discipline. I like spiritual anarchy|.s?g v?r?s
14851                                                            |C?py M?!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 01:08:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 10

Clark Matthews writes to me something about Deathstar...

What is Deathstar?

As far as your comments about Jack the Ripper being a Mason..
well, there are crazy people in all walks of life...if he was
a Mason this does not mean this is the typical thing that
Masons do.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 01:17:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 11

Clark Matthews writes good retort to Ryk spoor about
Columbus, Europe, etc.

Good post, Clark.  I applaud you.

If they don't see it, they not only don't believe it, it
must certainly mean that it doesn't exist, right?  WRONG.

:-)

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!mamura!maa
From: [e-mail] (Marc Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Information wanted
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 03:13:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne
Lines: 12

Can someone give me detailed info. on what MUFON/MUFONET, and
any other related societies/clubs are, how they operate,
contact addresses, etc...

Is there anything of this type or similar in Australia?

Thanks in advance

Marc Alexander                    |Internet [e-mail]
dept. of ee eng ,uni of melbourne |UUnet uunet!munnari!mullian!maa
parkville 3052 australia             zx-10rd350jex500rx2dod144
fax [phone] voice 3447689       "Interesting Concept!"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 18:54:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 86
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4041 sci.skeptic:19803 alt.conspiracy:10872

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>Grabbed this off the MUFONET echo

Many thanks!  Would you believe I watched three different newscasts
covering the event, all originating near its location, and only heard the
tiniest fraction of what's covered here?  Don't you love mass media?

>           During the evening hours of January 8, 1992,
>approximately 20 objects were sighted over an area near
>Scranton, Pennsylvania, known as Bald Mountain.  MUFON
>members were present, a video was taken of the objects,
>the viewing time was 1 1/2 hours.  Present were multiple
>witnesses, including five police officers.
>
>The objects sighted were "L" or rectangular shaped, lites
>were observed on the top and bottom of the objects.  A
>number of witnesses reported hearing a humming sound from an
>area of the hillside, where supposedly one or a number of
>the objects had landed.
>
>On site also were three local TV stations, who at this time
>have copied the video, presumably to be shown on their
>newscasts.

They all showed it.  I tried to tape it from one of them, but as luck would
have it I was taping the one which showed the least of it.  I saw a longer
version which I didn't get on tape.

Part of it showed a large ball of light which periodically blinked
brighter.  I'm virtually certain that this part was out of focus, and the
light was smaller than it appeared to be in this part.

Another part showed two or three lights which appeared to be connected to a
dark object.  The object turned so more or less lights were in view at a
given instant.  Sometimes the lights appeared to blink.  The object
resembled an airplane, but I'm not certain that it was.

The tape was shot by someone who wanted to remain anonymous, saying that
"people think I'm crazy enough already."

There were no reference points in the part I saw; just lights against a
dark sky.

>On January 12th and 13th, the objects reappeared in the sky
>over the same area, additional photographs were taken.

I didn't hear a single word about this.  One of the stations had rapidly
dismissed the initial sightings (or I should say "sighting"; they didn't
say anything about "approximately 20 objects") as a C-130.  The other
stations simply said that the FAA didn't know what it was, and let the
matter drop.  (The station claiming it was a C-130 said that it was cleared
to fly on a regular schedule or some such thing, so it didn't have to
notify them when it took off.  Are such things done?)

>---
>After checking a bit I found it was the CBS affiliate.  The news producer told
>me what follows.  It was taken directly from the AP wire, they suggested.  It
>_was_ Scranton, PA.  It _was_ last week, 1/9.  The producer-person made
>reference to "phones ringing off the hook" at some organization that sounded
>very similar to Stan Gordon's.   An object, but mostly a very large very
>bright light, was seen by some unknown-number-of-
>people-but-it-was-a-lot-of-people, it lasted for some unknown-length-of-time-
>but-it-was-a-long-time, a helicopter went/was-sent after it, saw it, filmed
>it, end of known story.

I've heard nothing about film/tape taken from a helicopter, or even about a
helicopter being sent after it.  Like I said at the beginning, wonderful
reporting by our mass media.

>Several police officers were involved in this sighting, and others.  It was a
>triangular craft-like fully-structured object.  Stan was not aware of any
>associated helicopter, and he was hesitant (understandably) in mentioning
>numbers of witnesses.  A few more than one, I guess, until we know more.

After reading all this, I'm inclined to wonder whether the person taping
from the ground could have taped the *wrong* object.  Part of the tape did
resemble a plane, as far as I could tell, but it would be pretty amazing
for such a large number of people as claimed here, seeing as many objects
as claimed here, to consistently mis-identify a plane.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 04:16:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4042 sci.skeptic:19804 alt.conspiracy:10873

I forgot to mention that the first report I saw on TV, before they aired
the videotape, said that the lights were hovering.  No one on any
station mentioned this later.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!apple!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Did a little research on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 05:25:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ron Hill) writes:
B
>My impression of the star map is that one could probably find a good match
>between *any* set of points drawn on paper and an actual star field, if
>one looked hard enough.  On the other hand, this is the only solid match
>that's ever been found (there is one in Fuller's book, but it's way off.)

Actually, there have been THREE proposed identifications of the supposed
alien "star map" that Betty Hill drew after her 1961 "UFO abduction."
I go into this in considerable detail in my book, "The UFO Verdict"
(Prometheus, 1986), where I have a whole chapter on the Hill case.

The first "identification" is, as Ron notes, in Fuller's book, "The
Interrupted Journey." It is simply a visual match-up by Betty Hill
of her 'star map' with a map of the constellation Pegasus.

The second was the famous identification by Marjorie Fish, which gave
us "Zeta Reticuli". Among UFOlogists, this is the only one it is
"Politically Correct" to mention. It is a 3-D map of nearby stars,
done by stringing beads on wires. It has major flaws that the pro-UFOlogists
never talk about, that are too complex to write down here. They are in
The UFO Verdict. Suffice it to say that there are many inconsistencies
and 'ad hoc' decisions in it.

The third is a pattern detected by Charles Atterberg, using pencil
and paper to plot the nearby stars. His accounts for more stars than
does Fish's pattern, and while it contains many non-hospitable stars
for life, the three main ones just 'happen' to be strong SETI candidates.
But again, I think it's a case of 'seek long enough, and ye shall find!'.


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Jan 92 18:33:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William Klippgen) writes:
>>>have any of you heard of this teory and/or the planet Ummo ???
>>
>>This is a famous contactee-oriented UFO case, with photographs, from
>>Madrid, Spain, starting in 1965.
>>
>>Dr. Claude Poher of the French National Center for Space Research (CNES)
>>investigated this incident, and concluded it was a hoax. (No, Poher is
>>NOT a skeptic; he accepts other UFO cases.) His analysis was published
>>byt the Center for UFO Studies in its Spring, 1977 Bulletin.
>
>Guys, this is the way the article *should* have been answered, rather than
>with all that crap.  If you think the Ummo case is a crock, say so, but say
>*why*.  It's possible the original poster hasn't heard any more details
>than what he posted, so making fun of him doesn't accomplish anything.
>
>--
> *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
> Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
> 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
> Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")

Thanks for pointing that out Jim..

Even though I don't agree with the skeptics on many things; clearly the
Ummo case has widely been held to be a hoax for some years now.

There's a new rub here as well..if you will take a look at the most recent
Puerto Rican text I put here a couple of weeks ago..lo and behold, the
peasant who claims to be abducted and given a message for Bush has
identified the craft with the _same_ markings as the Ummo.

Stranger and stranger :-|

The point about the ridicule is well taken..I wish *more* people would
respond in the fashion in which Robert did..no ridicule..no bullshit..just
answered the question.

Perhaps the "kids" would better off to post their remarks in alt.stupid or
it's twin brother, alt.slack?

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!uflorida!novavax!paula
From: [e-mail] (Morphina del Fleur)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: RICHH:  THE PARANORMAL IN *MY* DAILY LIFE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 03:27:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Morphina del Fleur)
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:4253 alt.alien.visitors:4045 talk.religion.newage:8710

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Blasik) writes:
>[e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>
>    o You are sound asleep in your bedroom. Suddenly you are awakened
>      by a bright light in your eyes. YOU ARE ABDUCTED BY ALIENS AND
>      ARE USED AS THE CONTROL HAMSTER IN AN EXPERIMENT OF GALACTIC PROPORTION.
                   ^^^^^^^

    Make that control GERBIL and things can get very interesting!!
    Bwahahahahahahhahahaha!!  Sometimes I just crack myself up.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!crosfield!imt
From: [e-mail] (ian taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: strange aircraft?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 11:06:27 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (ian taylor)
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.
Lines: 36

While driving home from work last night (Wed 22nd Jan) I saw an aircraft
with rather odd lights, and I was wondering if anyone could clarify what
I saw. The full story begins at about 6:30 pm, as I was driving south on the
M1 into London. The sky was extremely clear last night, with good visibility of
early evening stars. At a point about five or six miles outside London, I
noticed a lot of aerial activity - several light aircraft, and a helicopter,
which was intermittently using a searchlight. I would imagine this was a
police helicopter, since they are quite a common sight. There were probably
around half a dozen aircraft flying around the area, and they all seemed to
be circling, rather than actually headed somewhere. Now comes the interesting
bit. I noticed an aircraft crossing the motorway at ~200ft, and the
configuration of lights it showed seemed rather odd - there were two lights,
about 30-40ft apart, which were aligned in the direction of travel, ie at
each end of the craft. One light was red, and the other white, and every couple
of seconds, both lights would flash brighter, and then change colour, so the
red and white were reversed. The lights on this object were quite different to
the more familiar light configuration on the helicopter or the light aircraft,
but seemed about the same intensity when they were not 'pulsing' before a
colour change. The aircraft flew quite slowly over the road, in an easterly
direction. I couldn't make out any shape to the object - all that was visible
was the two lights. As I continued into London, I could still occasionaly see
planes and helicopters, but I didn't see the two-lighted craft again.

Can anyone identify what this strangely lit aircraft could be? I'm not at all
familiar with aircraft light regulations, but I'm sure I've never seen a
configuration like that before...

-ian

_______________________________________________________________________________
| Ian Taylor (x4097)    | The opinions expressed |"Well money can't buy me    |
| Crosfield Electronics    | here are not mine.     | love, it's true, but it    |
| Hemel Hempstead, UK    | God came to me in     | can buy a red Ferarri...   |
|            | a vision and told me   | and BABY...that'll do..."  |
| [e-mail]        | to do it.         | Zodiac Mindwarp            |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!uknet!newcastle.ac.uk!news
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jan 92 09:22:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: poros

You say you know everyone has been decieved.  How can you be sure you too are
not the victim of a deception.  Suppose a third groups of gods were making
a grab for power and it's necessary for them to get people to stop
believing in the existing gods?

   Why should it not be that the gods of Olympus and the Nordic gods and
now working together to overthrow the gods of the major religions, and to
do this they tell you all sorts of lies.

   In short how can you be sure that the information you are getting is
valid.  Any slighty powerful god should (?) know how to give you just
enough true information and to get some people convinced.

   So what independent evidence have you got.  Just as a skeptic would
not accept the truth of the Bible based just on the Bible, or the truth
of the Koran based just on the Koran, so why should the claims of
a channeller be accepted as true just because they say so.

...........................................................................
Dept of Process and Chemical Engineering,+|If builders built buildings the
Newcastle University, United Kingdom.    +|way computer programmers write
                                         +|programs,
JANET: [e-mail]         +|then the first woodpecker that
UUCP : ...!ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!W.P.Coyne +|came along would destroy
ARPA : [e-mail]         +|civilisation.
...........................................................................
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!usc!aero.org!robert
From: [e-mail] (R. S. Statsinger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Question
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 18:56:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Nick Palombo) writes:
|
|   I was just thinking about those sightings aroung Gulf Breeze FL. From what
|I understand that's near Pensacola Fl, right? Well, there's a Naval Air
|station there. Does anyone think it just might be something the Navy is
|flying? Obviously, whatever kind of craft it is, it is unconventional. But
|perhaps the people flying it are normal. Just a thought that I did not see
|discussed.

It could very well be that it was "us" flying crafts built by "them".
This is something you hear alot.

Newbie FAQ follows. Apologies in advance:

I frequent alot of New Age/fringe/flakey bookstores, and I have
yet to see a book about UFOs/alien visitors etc whose author
wasn't a lunatic. Well, lunatic is the wrong word: fanatic or
zealot is better. Is there anything REPUTABLE and IRREFUTABLE,
written by someone who at least seems somewhat balanced and
objective and whose sources can be verified?

Also, I've watched a couple of videos: the NOVA video, which
seems to try to explain away everything, and one other which
seems to not try to explain away anything. Again, is there
something balanced? Replies by email would be fine.

Thanks much.

Bob S.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 20:25:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

    You know, responses like the following really make me wonder if anyone
READS the posts I make, or just says "ah. He disagrees. I'll find one line
of thought that I can make fun of, since I can't rationally ARGUE with him."
    But onward into the fray...

>"Why should we have anything to do with this guy Columbus?"
>
>"We live in Europe, and we can't see *anything* when we look west.  If there's anything there, we have no contact with it, and therefore it does not matter.  Europe is the only REAL place for HUMAN BEINGS.  Anyone else who can't contact us in a meaningful
> way might as well not exist.  Besides, if we try to go there, we'll fall off the earth if the Sea Monsters don't get us first."

    Now, if you'd look back, the posts were dealing with assertions of ETs
contacting us. If ETs chose to contact us, they should be  leaving measurable,
verifiable traces of their existence.

    In the Columbus example above, the existence, or lack thereof, of
any other contactable place is verifiable. To make the analogy closer,
assume that  Columbus had been contacted telepathically by Indians and
said he was going over there. In this case, he could use physical means to
verify his otherwise vaporous claims. By the same token, IF there are energy-
beings contacting people through mental  means, they can be proven to exist
because they must leave some traces in the real world.

>
> RES> Sure, they might be there, but then it's the same as looking at the blank
> RES> sheet of paper; yep, it might well be a
> RES> picture of a polar bear in a blizzard,
> RES> but if I can't tell the difference then it remains a blank sheet of paper.
>
>In the words of the First Caliph of Alexandria:  "If all these books support the Koran, then the Koran is enough.  If any of these books gainsay the Koran, then they *deserve* to be burned anyway."
>
>The Caliph then burned tens of thousands of classical and ancient manuscripts contained in the entire Library of Alexandria, ca. 880 A.D.  3,000 years of scholarship, history, medicine and literature heated the entire city for the whole winter.

    Hmm. Now equating me with a bookburner and a close-minded religious
fanatic.

    Look, jack, PROOF is all I need. I'm willing to believe in ANYTHING
if someone can show PROOF.
    Redheaded Goddess and you are both making rather  nasty attacks on
my supposed close-minded nature, while none of you appear capable of being
able to understand the simple fact that REALITY can be DEMONSTRATED. If
you believe you are in contact with aliens or have strange supernatural
powers or are Channeling information from future people, there are a hundred
ways  to PROVE it to me... and not ONE of you has shown the slightest
inclination to do so.


>
> RES>        If you can't SHOW it to me, in some form or other, then it can't
> RES> be REALITY; it can only be an opinion or a philosophy that has no more
> RES> validity than a billion others... and consequently little utility.
>
>Somehow I get the impression that you wouldn't believe it if you saw it.  Are you familiar with the theories of Sheldrake and Bohm?  If so, what do you think of them?

    I would be able to believe anything I was shown.  I have the training
and the ability to  test any evidence you care to send my way. But it has to
be EVIDENCE. Not anecdotes, not comments from channelers, not a  "feeling".
Solid, hard evidence. Believe you have telepathy? Fine. Read my mind and
tell me something that no one but me knows. Believe you have contact with
aliens? Fine. Get something other than fuzzy philosophy out of them, get
them to tell you some major scientific point that can be verified here.
Believe in past lives? Okay. Ask the person something testable, for
example, find someone whose past life gave them access to knowledge
of the  location of some lost work of art or treasure. Then go find it.
If you believe in precognition, go win the lottery tomorrow. And the next
day, and the next. If you believe you are channeling thoughts from
people from the future, get exact stock quotes for 20 stocks for the next
three weeks.

    There are a thousand ways to prove ANY assertions you make... IF
they are real.


                    Sea Wasp
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From: [e-mail] (Seth Cohn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 21:54:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>   So what independent evidence have you got.  Just as a skeptic would
>not accept the truth of the Bible based just on the Bible, or the truth
>of the Koran based just on the Koran, so why should the claims of
>a channeller be accepted as true just because they say so.
>
>...........................................................................
>Dept of Process and Chemical Engineering,+|If builders built buildings the
>Newcastle University, United Kingdom.    +|way computer programmers write
>                                         +|programs,
>JANET: [e-mail]         +|then the first woodpecker that
>UUCP : ...!ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!W.P.Coyne +|came along would destroy
>ARPA : [e-mail]         +|civilisation.
>...........................................................................

True, do not accept ANYTHING just because it is said. But I find
MOST people who look into channeling with an open mind tend to find
something of substance there.  Have you ever done that?
Have any of you skeptics out there checked out a few of the
more "quiet" and intelligent ones? I know of a number of people
who channel who are selfskeptical and are glad to share
what THEY found to convince them. Most of the "good" channels are.
They have been convinced, not by a priesthood or by self delusion,
but by events which, I admit, are not repeatable experiments, but then
NEITHER is ANY psychology or other "mind" involved events.

Seth

P.S again I refer you to Channeling by Jon Klimo (Tarcher 1987?)

--
Seth Cohn - [e-mail] 607-273-2815             |Th?s ?s ?
PO BOX 671  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty|s?bl?m?n?l
Ithaca NY   I hate spiritual discipline. I like spiritual anarchy|.s?g v?r?s
14851       Avidly practicing Right Use of Will                  |C?py M?!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!think.com!spdcc!rdonahue
From: [e-mail] (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Did a little research on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 22:27:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>Item number 1: Zeta Ret. is a double star.  Normally, it's pretty
>unlikely that a planet in a binary system could harbor life due to high
>radiation fluxes and wide temperature variations.  These are caused by
>complex orbits and gravitational perturbations by the nearness of the
>companion star; I invite you to read some celestial mechanics to verify
>this.

    Zeta-1 and Zeta-2 are 4000AU apart.  The apparent magnitude of one
at the distance of the other is about -9 in the V band (in comparison
Veuns at it's brightest is -4.4 and the Full Moon is -12).

    In other words - they're plenty far apart enough to have totally
well developed individual plantary systems.

>Actually, planetary formation itself can be a real bitch if the
>stars are too close.  However, my info doesn't indicate if it's a *visual*
>double or a *physical* double i.e. binary.  If the system is only a visual
>double with a common proper motion (motion measured against much more
>distant stars which can be considered fixed) caused by formation in roughly
>the same area of space, the arguments about a minimal or non-existent
>"lifezone" are not applicable.  So, we need to determine if this baby is a
>physical double or not.

    Already done --- see above.  In fact a simple astro text book and
the Bright Star Catalogue would give you all the info you need to figure it
out.

    In terms of "double" it's both: physical and visual.
The period would be very long but the star is close enough to separate
the components visually.  But the separation is measured and the distance
is known...  hence the actual distance pops out.

>Item 2:  My info gave an M-K spectral classification for the two stars
>as G1 and G2.  Our sun is a G2 star, but it's a dwarf star, indicated
>by a third element: G2V (Roman numeral five).  The classification is
>important because the hotter/more massive a star is, the faster it
>burns its fuel and dies.  The Pleaidian stories have a major flaw:
>the Pleiades are type O and B stars and therefore can't have existed
>for very long.  The probability of life evolving on planets around
>those stars in that time frame (million versus billions of years) is
>small plus you've got a lot of radiation coming off those puppies.

    All true - the main sequence lifetime for G stars ia bout 9 Gyr.
I read a paper in Astron.Astrophy. (I don't have the refernce handy)
that puts the age at about 6 Gyr (i.e. older than the Sun) in other words
quite well-evolved enough for intelligent life to have developed...

    Most of the G stars in the solar neighborhood are < 3 billion years
old.  If the Sun/Earth are "typical" then the # of "usable" stars
within 20 parsecs of the Sun isn't too large - couple hundred or so...

    One other point:  most intro Astro books will tell you that the
Sun is a normal boring G star.  The truth is that it is nearly impossible to
find a star that is a very good match to the Sun.  There are a handful
of examples but most of them have one or two idiosyncracies that get
in the way...

Bob Donahue
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!think.com!spdcc!rdonahue
From: [e-mail] (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: More on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 22:34:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: insert anything here
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[e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>From: Simon Fraser University (re: Zeta2)

>>5.53m   Spectral Type G1V   Color Index 0.60   Distance 33 ly
>>Both stars are dwarfs. They are five arcminutes apart on the sky, a
>>separation of only 1/20 of a light year in that plane. It appears, given
>>the assumedly trigometrical parallaxes of these stars, that this is not
>>a binary system. Radial velocities would be of some interest here. Does
>>anyone have those?

>A twentieth of a ly is close for non-binaries (Alpha Cen. is almost 4.5 ly
>from us), but this could be a projection effect; radial velocities could
>help determine if Zeta1 and Zeta2 *are* orbiting each other.


    There is sufficient evidence to tell that it's not a projection
effect (moderate resolution spectroscopy).

    The change in spectral line position for two solar-mass stars
sep. at 1/20ly is too small to be measurable (I think), certainly < 0.1 km/s.

    Common proper motion is about all you have to go on, plus I think
it you look at other known visual binaries you'll see that separations of
a couple thousand AU's isn't uncommon.


Bob D.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Past Lives Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 01:10:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
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Lines: 1
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19821 alt.alien.visitors:4053 talk.religion.newage:8723

Methinks friend Don Showen is blowing thy own horn.  Blatant self-aggrandizment...bleh :(
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 01:47:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 23

Ryk Spoor writes: "There are a hundred ways to PROVE it
to me".

The point is:  You have to PRIVE it to YOURSELF.

RK write:  "Tell me something that no one but me knows."

Well, I will try:
Did you wet your pants a lot when you were little?
More specifically, some time between the ages of 7 and 9?

Kathy

All that is transient,
Is but reflected;
All that's inadequate,
Here it is perfected;
The indiscribable,
Here it is done;
The ever-Womanly
Leads us anon!

  --Chorus Mysticus, Mahler's Sym. No. 8.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 03:09:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes: "There are a hundred ways to PROVE it
>to me".
>The point is:  You have to PRIVE it to YOURSELF.

    Not really. If only an isolated individual can prove it to that
isolated individual, then this is not reality; it's an internal fantasy.
If these things REALLY exist, you can offer me independently verifiable
evidence.

>RK write:  "Tell me something that no one but me knows."
>Well, I will try:
>Did you wet your pants a lot when you were little?
>More specifically, some time between the ages of 7 and 9?

    Hmm. Does anyone else feel she might just be trying to be nasty
here? Not that this particular thing would bother me...

    Badly off, actually, K. My control over bodily functions is in fact
highly superior to most people's; I'm capable of controlling my heart rate
and blood pressure to quite a large extent, and bladder functions... well,
I've always been able to control them, since about 3-4.

    Here, I'll even give you a target to shoot for. Give me the
name, in the Ancient Sauran language which I invented for my writing,
that means "Crystal Song of a Magic Star". I'll be even more generous
and tell you that this particular name/word/words does not incorporate
any non-human sound patterns, so it's easily writable in the normal
alphabet.

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 03:31:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 44

Ryk Spoor writes:  "It's an internal Fantasy".

Maybe not.  Maybe it is an Internal Knowing.

Even the greatest teachers realize they can not teach the
unteachable.  There must be 'opening'.  There must be sincerity.
Not spoofing and ridicule and a "prove to me you are right
attitude".  Higher wisdoms, truths, do not come to the irreverent,
skeptical mind.   They come into, envelop, develop or created
(or whatever word one might think of...words can not describe
that which lives in spirit very well, that is why Christ
used so much metaphor in His teaching) into the hearts and
minds and souls of the true seeker.

Are you a true seeker, Ryk?

I could not "read" your private happenings (which you said
tell me one thing I know that no one else knows) even if I
WANTED to, if you have put a block on it (and are not really
giving permission to this).  There must be opening.  If you
were truly open with me, I might be able to give you something,
but it probably would only be 'give to me' to know in order
perhaps for a learning to occur for you, me, or both of us...
and if it happened...it would be coming as a gift.

There ARE those who indulge in manipulating others with their
minds, etc. and misuse spiritual gifts.  Sooner or later they
pay a price for this.  Even the greatest yogis speak of the
need to give up all siddhis (powers) to God.

You see Ryk, true spiritual is NOT about proving a point to
someone else, or PROVING to someone you know something of
one of their secrets, etc.  True spirituality is simply Be-ing.

Kathy

And we dance
To a whispered voice
Overheard by the Soul
Undertook by the Heart
And you may know it
If you may know it

   --Neil Diamond, "Be" from Jonathan Lingston Seagull LP
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From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 04:24:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 16

In the left corner, weighing in at 160 lbs, it's Ryk
In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Ryk Spoor writes: "There are a hundred ways to PROVE it
>to me".
>
>The point is:  You have to PRIVE it to YOURSELF.
                              :even when speaking in riddles, spell
                               she cannot

Get a life Goddess...

Scott - Who can tell you the most amazing things about Ryk Spoor
        because I have the secret inner knowledge that you will
        always lack my child.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 06:37:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Penn State University
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Ryk Spoor writes:  "It's an internal Fantasy".
>
>Maybe not.  Maybe it is an Internal Knowing.
>
>Even the greatest teachers realize they can not teach the
>unteachable.  There must be 'opening'.  There must be sincerity.
   :Goedel even proved it, but I suspect you don't think much of him.

>Not spoofing and ridicule and a "prove to me you are right
    :Sieg Heil!  Sieg Heil!  We must have FULL COOPERATION
     or no enlightenment for you!

>attitude".  Higher wisdoms, truths, do not come to the irreverent,
                                      :Ah, so Einstein, Schroedinger,
                                       Feynman, Newton, Pauling,
                                       Smale, Mandelbrot,
                                       Mc Clintock, Galileo,
                                       Abele and Copernicus
                                       lived lies, eh?

>skeptical mind.   They come into, envelop, develop or created
  :How would you know?  Your mind's so open it's a wonder it
    doesn't fall out...

>(or whatever word one might think of...words can not describe
>that which lives in spirit very well, that is why Christ
>used so much metaphor in His teaching) into the hearts and
                           :He told you this?

>minds and souls of the true seeker.

If it smells like a load of horse patootey, and it looks like a load
of horse patootey, you got horse patootey...  I am increasingly enveloped
by the smell of horse patootey with each of your successive posts.  Is
this an internal knowing master?

Ryk's given you a simple task.  If your amazing powers are up to it, perform
it and we will all believe.  If not then you have no good reason to continue
blathering about them...  Even Jesus (if the accounts are accurate) was
willing to raise the dead now and then...  Put up or shut up...

I have many books in my office.  Just tell me the first 5 starting
from the left on the bottom shelf above my desk.  I promise not
to place any Yogic guardians in the room to block your remote
viewing...  SCOUT'S HONOR!

>Are you a true seeker, Ryk?
           :Can I be a true seeker too?  C'mon pretty please with mana
            on top!

>You see Ryk, true spiritual is NOT about proving a point to
>someone else, or PROVING to someone you know something of
>one of their secrets, etc.  True spirituality is simply Be-ing.

Well then go back to Be-ing and stop Babb-ling.  This thread has nothing
to do with UFOs anymore.  It's just a my philosophy is better than yours
tirade.  Aren't you enlightened enough to know when to just walk away or
are your beliefs so insecure that you must ram them down everybody's
throat?  I can just see the reply:  I am not babbling or forcing my
beliefs on anyone, I am merely filling the world with true
wisdom and chirping birds...

Scott
"When you blindly affirm that you believe, you are signing a blank check
to your belief account, and brother that check will BOUNCE, and be
returned, stamped INSUFFICIENT MENTAL FUNDS." - Orson Scott Card
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: To Scott the Great
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 11:18:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 6

Some people have BIIIIIG mouths.  They think by ignorantly
expressing themselves they are intelligent.

Their blatherings only prove how ignorant they truly are.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Did a little research on Zeta Ret.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 07:15:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 31

In a message to All <22 Jan 92 13:43> Ron Hill wrote:

 RH> From: [e-mail] (Ron Hill)
 RH> Date: 22 Jan 92 10:59:40 GMT
 RH> Organization: VORT Computing
 RH> Calgary, Alberta, Canada    ...calgary!vort
 RH> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RH> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RH> My impression of the star map is that one could probably find a good match
 RH> between *any* set of points drawn on paper and an actual star field, if
 RH> one looked hard enough.  On the other hand, this is the only solid match
 RH> that's ever been found (there is one in Fuller's book, but it's way off.)
 RH> I'd like to hear from a statistician on this point in particular, but if
 RH> anyone has further information on the analysis of the map, feel free to
 RH> jump in.

Hello Ron.  The star map that closely matched the Hill description is the Fish Map.  It was created by Marjorie Fish, as you described, in the mid-70s.

As to alternative interpretations, I believe there are/were two.  Both involved the assumption that the map described by Betty Hill involved "forced perspective", e.g., the "double-star" in the foreground isn't an actual double star, but a perspective showing a "home star" in the foreground and a near neighbor in the near distance.

One of the alternative maps has the aliens coming from Tau Ceti.  Interestingly, all three more-or-less plausible maps include Tau Ceti.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 14:52:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>In the left corner, weighing in at 160 lbs, it's Ryk

    It's actually 190 lbs now, Scott -- I put on a fair amount of muscle
(and a little fat) since the last time you saw me, I guess.

>>Ryk Spoor writes: "There are a hundred ways to PROVE it
>>to me".
>>The point is:  You have to PRIVE it to YOURSELF.
>                              :even when speaking in riddles, spell
>                               she cannot

    Undoubtedly correct, but I was trying to have a conversation without
dropping to the level of spell checking. ;)


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: To Scott the Great
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 15:05:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Some people have BIIIIIG mouths.  They think by ignorantly
>expressing themselves they are intelligent.
>Their blatherings only prove how ignorant they truly are.
>Kathy


    I presume, then, you're talking about yourself, eh? Because it is you,
not me, who has been babbling things about "knowing" without proof and so on.
Scott has been a bit sarcastic to you, but then, you've earned it. You have
consistently been arrogantly and superciliously "sure" of your position, and
have had the gall to accuse ME of being close-minded whenever I ask for a
little evidence rather than simple assertions. I have attempted to be
reasonable and fair in my arguments, while several times YOU have seemed to
ride the border of deliberate insult. (If you had to provide an "example" of
your mental powers, for instance, you could have chosen anything [ the fact
that you were wrong proves that you just picked anything] and yet you chose
a subject which most people would find highly offensive.)

    Believe in whatever you want, Kath, but don't you DARE elevate it
to the level of a Truth when you obviously don't have the capacity to
demonstrate, or even GRASP, the difference between truth and wishful
thinking.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: To Scott the Great
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 15:15:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Some people have BIIIIIG mouths.  They think by ignorantly
>expressing themselves they are intelligent.

Must have hit a nerve, eh?  Some people will do ANYTHING to attempt to
change the subject once they are backed into a corner.  Some super-enlightened
being you are.  Once again, put up or shut up...

>Their blatherings only prove how ignorant they truly are.

Magician, heed thyself...

>Kathy

Scott
"Oh faithless and perverse generation; how long am I to be with you?"
Matthew 18:17
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 23:06:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 37

Ryk Spoor writes:  "I have attempted to be reasonable"

YOUR interpretation of "reasonable" is interesting.  Evidently
you will continually demand proof even though I will continually
tell you to supply your own proof.  Your evolution is in your
own hands, not mine.  I am not your teacher, or your proof/evidence
supplier.  Look inwardly.

About the remark that I can't spell (by Scott the Great)  (btw,
are you sure you have the right word there: great?..I can
think of another one more befitting):  I am a very good speller.
The problem is I am an extremely FAST typist, and that is the
reason for the spelling error, it should have been PROVE not
PRIVE.

About Scott the Great quoting a Bible passage to me:  It has
been said that even the devil can quote Scripture.

People like both of you can get very petty and mean when their
'demands' of what they want to fit into "their" belief systems
are not supplied.

You are looking at the wrong person to serve it up to you on
a silver platter.  Growth is often painful and demands courage.
When both of you face up to this spiritual principle instead
of rebelliously acting like children, the light might dawn
on you.

Grow up...I like to talk to men, not little boys.

Any men out there?  :-)

Kathy

Intuition is not a thought, it's the non-local cosmic field of
information that whispers to you in the silence between your
thoughts.   --Dr. Deepak Chopra
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!ub!dsinc!pitt.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 05:44:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 69

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes:  "I have attempted to be reasonable"
>
>YOUR interpretation of "reasonable" is interesting.  Evidently
>you will continually demand proof even though I will continually
>tell you to supply your own proof.  Your evolution is in your
>own hands, not mine.  I am not your teacher, or your proof/evidence
>supplier.  Look inwardly.

    Odd. Why should I seek out proof of things that are patently
ridiculous? YOU are the one claiming to "know" the truth. *IF* you do
really have the right line on what is real and what is not, then it is
incumbent on YOU, not ME, to prove what you are claiming. Or, at least,
it is incumbent on you to prove it IF you wish what you say to be taken
seriously, rather than treated as what it appears to be: the wishful thinking
of someone who has little or no power over their own REAL life, or who
has failed to attain something that they desperately desire. You are
constructing this fantasy of powers that YOU understand, along with others
who believe it for similar reasons, to fill some void within you.
    If you want someone else to believe this, put up or shut up. You
have shown no capacity for rational thought yet, and I'm not expecting
any now (not after the last couple... see later comment.)

>The problem is I am an extremely FAST typist, and that is the
>reason for the spelling error, it should have been PROVE not
>PRIVE.

    Most people are capable of finding a key called BACKSPACE or
DELETE and doing something called EDITING.

>You are looking at the wrong person to serve it up to you on
>a silver platter.  Growth is often painful and demands courage.
>When both of you face up to this spiritual principle instead
>of rebelliously acting like children, the light might dawn
>on you.

    Hah. YOU are the one wanting people to accept YOUR assertions... not
us. WE have tons of evidence to back OUR world view. You have none, or at
least none that YOU dare offer to "Real Men"... because Real Men (and Women)
use the one thing that differentiates them from animals, a mind capable of
abstract thought. I can handle logic and the scientific method. I can also
imagine almost anything, including the things that you believe in. The
difference between you and me is that *I* don't make the mistake of thinking
that imagination and belief make REALITY. And I don't expect people to accept
anything that I believe simply on faith; if I want someone to believe, I'll
give them evidence.

>Grow up...I like to talk to men, not little boys.

    You will get to talk to men when you become an adult yourself. An
adult is a person who can think and applies that thinking. You have yet
to demonstrate that capacity.
    I'm sorry to be so nasty about it, but it seems that only a blunt
statement gets ANY reaction from you. The fact is that you are believing in
a lie, or else you don't want to prove any "truth" you have.
    Perhaps this belief fills such a basic need in you that you dare not
release it because you're afraid of where that will leave you.

>Intuition is not a thought, it's the non-local cosmic field of
>information that whispers to you in the silence between your
>thoughts.   --Dr. Deepak Chopra

    Intuition is the work of the subconscious mind on data that was
accumulated but not directly accessible on the conscious level.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!microsoft!marcmil
From: [e-mail] (Marc MILANINI)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Keywords: Ummonians on earth
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jan 92 22:21:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Lines: 83

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William Klippgen) writes:
>>According to this information, several famous people on earth are of
>>'Ummonian' origin, such as Einstein and Marx.
>>
>This is a famous contactee-oriented UFO case, with photographs, from
>Madrid, Spain, starting in 1965.
>
>Dr. Claude Poher of the French National Center for Space Research (CNES)
>investigated this incident, and concluded it was a hoax. (No, Poher is
>NOT a skeptic; he accepts other UFO cases.) His analysis was published
>byt the Center for UFO Studies in its Spring, 1977 Bulletin.
>
>His conclusion: "These studies indicate that the photographs are a hoax,
>produced by using a small model of translucent plastic, on which the
>insignia was drawn in ink. This model was suspended for the photographer by
>means of a very fine line ... "
>
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
> Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!
>
>       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
>        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"

Thanks for that information. The "Ummo" case is still vivid in France. A
few months ago, a "Directeur de Recherche" -Research Manager- of the CNRS
-National Center for Scientific Research- published a book about that. His
name is Jean-Pierre Petit, and the title of his book must be "Enquete sur
les Extra-terrestres qui sont deja parmi nous" -Investigation on the ETs
who are already among us-. Here is a summary of that book.

The "Ummits" are so-called ETs who are in contact with several persons,
especially in Spain. They communicate with the contactees via mail, sending
them information about their planet, their arrival on the Earth, ...
The first thing is that they landed on Earth around 1953, which of course
invalidates the possibility of Einstein or even Marx to be one of them.
They have described quite precisely the place where they landed: it is near
Digne in the south of France. JP Petit has been there and found that the
description was so accurate that only someone who had visited the mountains
around Digne could have written it. After that, they spread to Spain, and
several other countries, and began to study our society. In the letters they
sent to contactees, they told about several incidents which happened to them,
and again, JP Petit found articles in some spanish nespapers relating strange
things that have arrived then (like the finding of one the Ummit labs).

The "Ummits" are allegedly quite similar to us, the only difference being that
they have a stain on their body. They live on a planet revolving around a star
that is yet to be identified (it is much like the Sun, G6 class if my memory
serves well), about 15 light years far. Their system of government could be
qualified of "communist". In the letters that contactees receive, there is
not a single trace of humor or metaphor. Still today, people keep on receiving
letters from them (26 years after the first ones !). The only condition for
being chosen is to show interest in the case, by going to meetings with other
contactees for example, and not use the letters for one's own purpose.

It seems that, like in lots of other abduction cases, the contactees have
used the letters for their own publicity. JP Petit asserts that the "Ummits"
stopped writing to them at once. But there are still many meetings around them
with people saying that their parents are ETs, ... (example taken from the
book).

The most interesting thing about that case is that JP Petit has used, or
found inspiration to be more precise, in some
of the scientific material found in the Ummit letters to publish Physics
articles in refered publications. His articles deal mainly with the
possibilities of parallel universes, time, general relativity. JP Petit is
regarded as quite prominent in those fields. He believes that the Ummo letters
can only be written by people having a very extensive knowledge of general
relativity, and physics. I must say that he is very much biased towards
believing in ufos, and he has carried out studies about their mode of
propulsion. He thinks that MHD is bound to be the solution (he is also an
expert in that field BTW). Nevertheless, I personnally think that he has
kept all the characteristics of a good scientist. I am sure that he considers
all that "New Age" stuff as having nothing to do with real Ufology, for
example.

Sorry for not quoting exactly which publications JP Petit made. I left the
book in France, and it will take me time to get it back.
--
=---K8>>@@@@@@@@ Marc Milanini @@@@ [e-mail] @@@@%%
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Keywords: Ummonians on earth
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 07:15:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: A room filled with typography (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 38
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4067 alt.religion.kibology:749

[discussion about whether Einstein and Karl Marx were aliens]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marc MILANINI) writes:
>The "Ummits" are allegedly quite similar to us, the only difference being that
>they have a stain on their body.

Gorbachev!  Gorbachev!  Gorbachev!

>They live on a planet revolving around a star
>that is yet to be identified (it is much like the Sun, G6 class if my memory
>serves well), about 15 light years far.

If it's G6 at 15 light years away, there can't be too many
possibilities.  There are only a few dozen stars in that radius, if
memory serves, and very few are Sun-like (most are invisible or barely
visible little red dwarfs, etc.)

>Their system of government could be
>qualified of "communist".

Gorbachev!  Gorbachev!  Gorbachev!

>In the letters that contactees receive, there is
>not a single trace of humor or metaphor.

Ralph Nader!


The people from MY home planet don't contact humans by writing them
LETTERS.  We're more advanced.  We send POSTCARDS!

                            -- Kibo


--
..................    ...................................................
James "Kibo" Parry    271 Dartmouth St #3D, Boston MA 02116 [phone]
[e-mail]    Independent graphic designer and typeface designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 04:18:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>About the remark that I can't spell (by Scott the Great)  (btw,
>are you sure you have the right word there: great?..I can
                                              :Absolutely sure...
>think of another one more befitting):  I am a very good speller.
                             :We are an angry goddess today, aren't we?
>The problem is I am an extremely FAST typist, and that is the
                                   :So are about 80% of the posters here...
>reason for the spelling error, it should have been PROVE not
>PRIVE.

Why do you insist on continually avoiding the one topic that will
either validate your claims or expose you as a liar or deluded?  Here
it is once again:  You have made a claim to extraordinary powers.
Are you capable of demonstrating them at will?  If so, either give
us a demonstration or shut up.

>About Scott the Great quoting a Bible passage to me:  It has
>been said that even the devil can quote Scripture.

It's also been said that pigs will fly.  Would it make you feel better
if I quoted De Sade instead?  Put up or shut up.

>People like both of you can get very petty and mean when their
>'demands' of what they want to fit into "their" belief systems
>are not supplied.

Once again, magician heed thyself.  One talent you truly have is the
ability to project all your personality defects on your perceived
enemies.  Put up or shut up.

>You are looking at the wrong person to serve it up to you on
>a silver platter.  Growth is often painful and demands courage.

I knew I was looking at the wrong person from your first post.  You're
right, growth IS painful and requires courage.  I guess that's why you've
done so little.  Put up or shut up.

>When both of you face up to this spiritual principle instead
>of rebelliously acting like children, the light might dawn
>on you.

Who's acting like a child?  You're acting like a petulant seven year old
who has just discovered Santa isn't for real and has decided that the
explanation for this unfortunate turn of events is that it was really the
Easter Bunny all along...  Put up or shut up.

>Grow up...I like to talk to men, not little boys.
>Any men out there?  :-)

Ah, I guess I have not supplied your 'demands' of what you want to fit
into "your" belief system, eh?  Bummer...  Put up or shut up.

>Kathy
>
>Intuition is not a thought, it's the non-local cosmic field of
>information that whispers to you in the silence between your
>thoughts.   --Dr. Deepak Chopra

Scott
"Logic is a Tweeting Bird" - Mr. Spock
"Put up or shut up." - James Randi
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: abductions [was Re:  Did a little research on Zeta Ret.]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 19:21:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ron Hill) writes:
>The program tried to present a journalistically balanced view of abduction
>episodes.  A neurologist was interviewed;  he attributed abduction events
>to hallucinations induced by hyperactivity in the hippocampus and the
>amygdala.  An historian who has interviewed ~50 abductees (~300 episodes)

Most of the theories I've heard attribute it to problems in the temporal
lobes.   Where are the hippocampus and amygdala located?

>was also interviewed;  he says there are too many similarities in fine
>details between events to make it possible to dismiss them as
>hallucinations.

There's one thing that bothers me about the argument that similarity of
details is evidence that something physical happened:  What if the
abduction experience is somehow encoded in the structure of our brains?  I
don't mean that it was encoded there *by* anyone, I mean that when certain
stimuli are applied (such as in Persinger's experiments), the brain goes
into a particular mode of operation that reads a different "program" than
the normal one.  Look at it this way:  if you jump to a random location in
your computer's memory, it will probably crash.  But *another* computer (of
the same model, of course) will crash the same way when you jump to the
same location.

OK, let's say you don't like the computer model.  After all, the brain
isn't a computer, and someone had to put the computer program there and
cause it to be the same in all computers.  Let's try a natural model.
Consider the Mandelbrot set.  If you manipulate numbers in a certain way,
you get a very complex (infinitely complex, in fact) image.  Although the
equation was created by man, the numbers themselves just *are* -- their
properties are universal.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jan 92 19:33:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>fitted with lights.  I have yet to see anything on the one Scranton TV
>station I receive though but then again I'm not exactly a TV addict...

I don't think anyone covered anything except the first night.  I first
heard of it at 5:00 on WNEP, then at 6:00 WNEP, WYOU, and WBRE all were
going crazy over it, and all of them showed parts of the videotape.  At the
end of WBRE's report, one of the anchors said that he suspected it was a
C-130 because he had just seen one in the area.  At 11:00, WBRE reported
that it WAS a C-130.  The other two stations didn't say anything of the
sort, but just ran shorter versions of their 6:00 reports.  Ignored in the
whole mess was the fact that the 5:00 report on WNEP said that the lights
were *hovering*.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!linac!att!att!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 13:00:57 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 42

Ryk spoor writes to me "You are the one claiming to "know"
the truth.

Again, this is *your* interpretation of what I am about.  Ever
hear of the Eleusinian mysteries?  Or of the Mystery Schools?
Or of initiation?  Or of Joseph Campbell?

When one becomes an initiate, he/she begins to awaken to truth.

It doesn't matter to me whether you take what I say 'seriously'.
This type of thinking, again, is from your intellect and ego which
wants to prove that it is right in its' thinking/and assertions.
You *assume* I am trying to prove you wrong (because this is what
you are doing in your communication with me).  I am merely expressing
myself.  And I can only speak from my own experiences.  If you choose
not to believe them or accept them, do not.  Doesn't make much difference
to me.

At some level of your being, I know you 'do' hear the words I speak,
and you 'do' know that you wish to know, otherwise you would not even
bother talking with me.  Of course, I may be wrong here, and you only
wish to spout off to feel important--many ego centric people do this,
also.

But again I say to you, the ets (the higher intelligences) will
not impose themselves on YOU.  YOU must make the opening for them
to come in with a sincere heart that truly wishes to learn and
understands at some level that you do not know it all, and that very
possibly, you may have been wrong or inaccurate in some of your
belief systems.  This is the kind of 'openness' I believe that they
look for.  You put up your own prison bars...but in doing so, you
have locked yourself into your own prison (crystallized belief
systems).

Put up or shut up?  I say to you:  open up or stay closed.  If you
stay closed, don't seek me out to talk with you.  I will respect
and honor wherever you wish to be in your own evolution.

Kathy

If a negative emotion is strong enough, it maynot only colour his
reasoning faculty, but even preclude its use altogether.  --Paul Brunton
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 08:16:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 31

In a message to All <23 Jan 92 14:02> Redheaded Goddess wrote:

 RG> From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
 RG> Date: 23 Jan 92 01:08:42 GMT
 RG> Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
 RG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RG> Clark Matthews writes to me something about Deathstar...

 RG> What is Deathstar?

Holmdel?  Or do I misread your path line?

 RG> As far as your comments about Jack the Ripper being a Mason..
 RG> well, there are crazy people in all walks of life...if he was
 RG> a Mason this does not mean this is the typical thing that
 RG> Masons do.

Sorry if I alarmed you.  Let me make it explicitly clear that I don't think the Whitechapel murders were "typical Masonic behavior" either.  But the graffiti scrawled near one of the last victims was unquestionably Masonic.  It's one of the most interesting aspects of the case and it spawned a lot of the occult theories about the crimes.

I only brought this up in the context of some flames from a hydrophobic fellow whose grandad was a Mason, or something.  Sorry if I confused the issue.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 08:31:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 37

In a message to All <23 Jan 92 14:02> Redheaded Goddess wrote:

 RG> From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
 RG> Date: 23 Jan 92 01:17:50 GMT
 RG> Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
 RG> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 RG> Clark Matthews writes good retort to Ryk spoor about
 RG> Columbus, Europe, etc.

 RG> Good post, Clark.  I applaud you.

Thanks!

 RG> If they don't see it, they not only don't believe it, it
 RG> must certainly mean that it doesn't exist, right?  WRONG.

I think so.  I think serious UFO research requires an insistance on evidence, critical thinking, and imagination.  The character who wrote that Snopes Post seems to lack all three.

Depressing to see stuff like that coming out of a college.

Best,
  Clark


 RG> :-)

 RG> Kathy

 RG> --- ConfMail V4.00
 RG> * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's leading UFO Investigative

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CLIPPING: Scranton UFOs / FAA Tapes!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 08:39:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 31

In a message to All <23 Jan 92 14:02> Jim Shaffer wrote:

 JS> From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 JS> Date: 22 Jan 92 18:54:38 GMT
 JS> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
 JS> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 JS> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy

 JS> I didn't hear a single word about this.  One of the stations had rapidly
 JS> dismissed the initial sightings (or I should say "sighting"; they didn't
 JS> say anything about "approximately 20 objects") as a C-130.  The other
 JS> stations simply said that the FAA didn't know what it was, and let the
 JS> matter drop.  (The station claiming it
 JS> was a C-130 said that it was cleared
 JS> to fly on a regular schedule or some such thing, so it didn't have to
 JS> notify them when it took off.  Are such things done?)

Jim!  Have you been following the FAA discussions on ParaNet?

Look -- here's our chance to GET FAA TRACKING TAPES before they erase them!  They're supposed to KEEP THE TAPES FOR 15 DAYS before bulking them -- so regardless of what they *say* about what it was, or wasn't, the tapes of the local air traffic should be extant.

Whaddya think??

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 08:49:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 131

In a message to All <23 Jan 92 19:03> Ryk E Spoor wrote:

 RES> From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
 RES> Date: 23 Jan 92 20:25:45 GMT
 RES> Organization: University of Pittsburgh
 RES> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 RES> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

Ryk, first of all...

 RES> In article <[e-mail]>
 RES> [e-mail] (Clark Matthews) writes:

 RES>        You know, responses like the
 RES> following really make me wonder if anyone
 RES> READS the posts I make, or just says "ah. He disagrees. I'll find one line
 RES> of thought that I can make fun of, since
 RES> I can't rationally ARGUE with him."
 RES>        But onward into the fray...

I did not write the above.  I wrote this...

 >>"Why should we have anything to do with this guy Columbus?"
 >>
 >>"We live in Europe, and we can't see *anything* when we look

... etc., etc.  I don't mind being quoted & ridiculed, as long I'm being quoted.  Now, to this ...

 RES>        Now, if you'd look back, the
 RES> posts were dealing with assertions of ETs
 RES> contacting us. If ETs chose to contact
 RES> us, they should be  leaving measurable,
 RES> verifiable traces of their existence.

I wish you'd said so.  You wrote vividly that you hadn't seen any evidence, didn't care to see any evidence, didn't want to see any evidence, and basically weren't interested in any evidence for UFOs.  I think you made yourself quite clear & I freely quoted the first Caliph of Alexandria because he was the most outlandish philistine I could think of on short notice.  My remarks have no religious significance at all -- the guy was simply a blinkered ignoramus of gigantic proportions.  Sorry if it bothered y



ou -- go back & read what I was responding to, though.

As to channeling, I agree with you.  I think channeling is a crock & it's totally screwed up this echo.  If you want to see evidence for UFOs, I'd suggest picking up Night Seige by Phil Imbrogno.  Or, by the sound of things, you might just drive up to Scranton some night and watch the skies...

If you think alternate realities are a fantasy, please tell me why electrons require a 720-degree spin to complete one rotation.


 RES>        In the Columbus example above, the existence, or lack thereof, of
 RES> any other contactable place is verifiable. To make the analogy closer,
 RES> assume that  Columbus had been contacted telepathically by Indians and
 RES> said he was going over there. In this case, he could use physical means to
 RES> verify his otherwise vaporous claims. By

Wrong.  Columbus is said to have seen two dead American Indians in a dugout canoe, near Iceland.  Like most European sailors, he saw unusual flotsam in the Gulf Stream, including branches, driftwood, dead animals, etc.  Indeed Columbus altered his mathematics to match his observations, actually reasoning (incorrectly) that his navigational minutes had to be smaller than the (mathematically certain) navigational minutes dictated by mathematicans and mapmakers as far back as Ptolemy.

 RES> the same token, IF there are energy-
 RES> beings contacting people through mental
 RES> means, they can be proven to exist
 RES> because they must leave some traces in the real world.

I agree, but I would allow that "energy beings" or at least beings capable of travelling dimensionally *would perhaps have some difficulty* in leaving such traces, due to the nature of their means of transport.  It's a little like expecting "lasting impressions" from recorded music from a CD -- holograms don't leave footprints.  I don't know for certain, of course.  But at least I'll consider the possibility...

 >> RES> Sure, they might be there, but then it's the same as
 RES> looking at the blank
 >> RES> sheet of paper; yep, it might well be a
 >> RES> picture of a polar bear in a blizzard,
 >> RES> but if I can't tell the difference then it remains a blank
 RES> sheet of paper.

Until you devise a test to see the polar bear.  I'd suggest looking for a heat signature.

The point is to test, not scoff.

 RES>        Hmm. Now equating me with a
 RES> bookburner and a close-minded religious
 RES> fanatic.

Sorry.  As I said above, I didn't mean to tar you with a broad brush with the Caliph thing.  Closed-mindedness was what I was trying to illustrate, nothing more.

 RES>        Look, jack, PROOF is all I
 RES> need. I'm willing to believe in ANYTHING
 RES> if someone can show PROOF.

Ryk, if I could show you conclusive proof I would be a happy man.  Some of the best minds around are grappling with the UFO phenomenon -- and many of the rest of the folks interested in this have sunk into New-Age Channeled cryptobabble.  No other subject today has a broader spectrum of scholarship & belief than UFOs (with the possible exception of JFK-assassination theories).

If you're really interested, check out Imbrogno's book & follow your interest from there.

 RES> none of you appear capable of being
 RES> able to understand the simple fact that REALITY can be DEMONSTRATED. If

Sure!  No arguement there.  I would point out that old Ptolemy could demonstrate a reality that worked very convincingly and accurately.  The Sun revolved around the Earth, of course -- but it worked.

We may not understand everything, you see.  We definitely don't understand what we *don't* see.  Like ~50% of the matter in the universe -- the dark matter.  Is it there?  Is it in black holes?  Does it have a different "spin"?  Does it comprise an alternate universe?  A parallel universe?  I'd sure like to know.

 RES> you believe you are in contact with aliens or have strange supernatural
 RES> powers or are Channeling information
 RES> from future people, there are a hundred
 RES> ways  to PROVE it to me... and not ONE of you has shown the slightest
 RES> inclination to do so.

I don't channel & don't mess with it.  Aliens avoid me (The heartbreak of psoriasis???  Beats me...)  I don't recall saying that I did any of the things you mention.

RES>        If you can't SHOW it to me, in some form or other, then it can't
RES> be REALITY; it can only be an opinion or a philosophy that has no more
RES> validity than a billion others... and consequently little utility.

"If the Koran is sufficient..."

 >>Somehow I get the impression that you wouldn't believe it if you
 RES> saw it.  Are you familiar with the theories of Sheldrake and
 RES> Bohm?  If so, what do you think of them?

 RES>        I would be able to believe
 RES> anything I was shown.  I have the training
 RES> and the ability to  test any evidence
 RES> you care to send my way. But it has to
 RES> be EVIDENCE. Not anecdotes, not
 RES> comments from channelers, not a  "feeling".

Look, I know you're probably steamed, but I must repeat my questions:  Are you familiar with the theories of Sheldrake and Bohm?  If so, what do you think of them?

If not, check them out.  Examine the data, the repetitions, confirmations, anomalies, etc.  If you're intrigued, devise a new experiment & try it.  The theories of these two men deal with a holographic paradigm for both matter and thought.  Have a look at Paul Pietsch's _Shufflebrain_ .

 RES> Solid, hard evidence. Believe you have telepathy? Fine. Read my mind

Ouch!

Was that a sting, or what?

Cheerio,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!mailgzrz!math.fu-berlin.de!tmpmbx!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 14:07:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Lines: 37

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus) writes:



>    Alright, finally !  Now lets see some GIF's along with the original
>articles.  With all the film footage and photo's taken, this should be
>real easy.

>Kc

Yes, Yes Yes, this is what we need !!!
Don't talk to much here but post GIF or better JPEG Files (much more smaller)
of UFO sightings !
By the way, JPEG is at least 5 times smaller than a GIF-file with better
picture quality(when converted from 24 bits scans).
For MSDOS-platform there are three programs for handling JPEG files:
Image Alchemy and GIF2JPG1.5 from Handmade Software, LOS GATOS, USA. and
cjpeg and djpeg from the independant JPEG group lead by Tom Lane.
For Unix platform there is the new XV-2.0 which can display and convert? JPEG
pics !
So try to scan with a good 24 bits color scanner and get it converted to JPEG.
So all 24 bits color are kept and not dithered to bit like in a GIF-pic !!!

All menschioned JPEG-tools above can be obtained by anonymous FTP.
Ask Your archie-server, where to find them !!


Best regards, Stefan Hartmann.


--

*******************************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:                           *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                                            *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79                   *
*******************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ringer!lonestar.utsa.edu!ray
From: [e-mail] (Robert S. Ray)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: strange aircraft?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jan 92 20:27:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: Jeanice Ray, age 11
Organization: Univ of Texas at San Antonio
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: lonestar.utsa.edu

Not long ago, I saw an UFO (?) It looked just like the one that I saw on a t.v.
show called Unsolved Mysteries.
It had a triangular shape.  Its color was
black.  The corners had bright, white lights and the middle of the craft had
a small red light. It seemed to be about 100-250 feet off the ground.

Has anyone ever seen anything similar to this description?

--
@#@#@#@##@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@@@@#@#@#@#@##@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@
|                                                                             |
|------- [e-mail]                                                |
"The future is fun! The future is fair!                                       |
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!nexus
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mike Corbin's True Colors?
Message-ID: <422800021@peg>
Date: 26 Jan 92 00:21:00 GMT
Lines: 178
Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800021:000:9977
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!nexus    Jan 25 20:21:00 1992


To those interested.

A couple of weeks ago, I posted in this conference, a "plug" for
AstroNet, a network of BBS's in Australia and New Zealand.  We had
previously been echoing ParaNet info down under, but were mysteriously
"cut off" for no apparent reason. The reason ended up to be based around
petty UFO group politics, which is a shame in my opinion.  I pursued the
ParaNet sysop - Mike Corbin via several means, and eventually he had the
'courtesy' of replying, in a rather rude manner. That was some time ago
- and I let the matter drop.

Imagine my surprise when I opened my mail-box and there was this letter
from Mike Corbin (see below) now wanting to "engage in meaningful
dialogue".  I have, at the risk of being "sued" or "barred from
InterNet" enclosed below the messages from this strange fellow.

I have several questions of you guys up there (USA).

1).  Can Mike Corbin fulfill his threat of barring me from using
InterNet, if so, how?
2)   Referring to his accusation of stealing stuff
from copyrighted ParaNet files - can someone actually retype a newspaper article
onto a computer network and claim the copyright for it?
3)   Is he [Mike Corbin] always this unpleasant to people?

Get your cheque book out Mike, and sue the tits off me!!!!!  This is
what threats get you.  Personally, I think you've got a "kangaroo loose in
the top paddock"!

================================================================================

From swift![e-mail] Sun Jan  5
23:48 ED T 1992 >From [e-mail]
Sun Jan  5 18:16:40 AESS T 1992 remote from swift >From
[e-mail] Sun Jan  5 17:15:35 1992 Date:
Sat, 04 Jan 92 21:17:23 PDT From:
[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) Subject: Hello
To: mailrus!peg.pegasus.oz.au!nexus X-Mailer: mailout v1.26 released


I noticed your posting on alt.alien.visitors about ParaNet, and thought
that I would attempt a meaningful dialogue with you regarding your
feelings about ParaNet in Australia.  First, are you Duncan?

I would be interested in hearing from you why you feel the way that you
do?

Thanks for your time. - Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET:
[e-mail]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From
cdp!ncar.UCAR.EDU!scicom!paranet!f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG![e-mail]
Fri Jan 17 04:25 EDT 1992 >From
ames.arc.nasa.gov!ncar.UCAR.EDU!scicom!paranet!f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
 Thu Jan 16 09:11:07 1992 remote from cdp Date: Thu, 16 Jan 92  9:12:18
PDT From: cdp!f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re:  Hello To: peg!nexus X-Mailer: mailout v1.26 released


 > It is nice of you now to desire to set up " a meaningful
 > dialogue", but it is a pity you did not do so earlier.  Secondly,
 > Yes I am Duncan - Does that change your 'meaningful dialogue'?
 > After pursuing you (at some cost) to find out why Australia had
 > no access to Paranet after all that time - the only answer I
 > received was to be told that Bob Fletcher (our Sysop) wsa lying to
 > me/us.  So I checked the email and found that Vlad Godic et al had
 > made an arrangement with you for his group to be the exclusive
 > receivers of ParaNet.  Seems as if you cut off our Sysop and not
 > the other way around to me - buddy!  I do not know what Vlad Godic
 > has told you about me, but I have intercepted some  other mail
 > where he discussed me and Nexus magazine in a rather derogatory
 > light.  I have never even met the guy, and the things he said
 > about me and Bob Fletcher being in a 'partnership' are bullshit.
 > The end result is ParaNet's name is now mud in Australia, and so is
 > Vlad's little group.  You are now accessed by about 3 or 4 users
 > at last count.  I note ironically that Vlad is charging
 > money for Pranet access .  I also note that ParaNet does not have
 > a good reputation among BBSs in the USA, - we got quite o a bit of
 > 'knowing sympathy' from several BBSs in the states.  It all came
 > down to "who to believe" in my case, and after checking what I
 > could, I believe Bob Fletcher is telling the truth.  Gunna talk to
 > me now?  Thanks for YOUR time, Duncan Roads, Nexus Magazine, Australia.

G'day Duncan!  Glad to see you had the nerve to respond to my little
letter. Actually, I knew it was you, but didn't want to offend anyone
else until I knew by confirmation.  I knew it was you by the cheap shot
you took in the alt.alien.visitors conference.  It had that same
"Fletcher" quality of "if I can't beat them, slander them."

Before I say anymore, I would like to comment on your so-called
"professional" journalistic ability.  I was highly disappointed to see
our private e-mail being sent out in public information packets.  Where
I am from, it is highly unethical to publicize private transmissions,
and in some cases, it is actionable by law.  Just so we both know where
we are, I am telling you that I will not engage in any discussion with
you until I have your assurance that whatever is written is kept private
and not republicized. As a further precaution, I will hereby (C) 1992
Michael Corbin.  All Rights Reserved., any portion of these
communications that we have.  Therefore, if anything is seen in public,
I will have an action against you for violation of this copyright. But,
is that really necessary?  Actually, the real problem is that I just
don't have time to play little games.

As you mention above, I really don't care what you or your group of
Aussies think about ParaNet.  I don't care what John Komar or his little
group of MUFONites thinks either.  The plain and simple truth is that
ParaNet is the absolute best.  You see, there is ParaNet and then there
are those that "wanna be ParaNet."  Although you might feel this to be
pompous or arrogant, it is the simple truth.  ParaNet is now going on
its sixth year of operation. In the places that really count, ParaNet is
well liked and respected.  I don't worry about "other" networks simply
because they have not demonstrated the same track record that ParaNet
has.  Their leadership is laughable, and I would just about bet that the
way that most of you have reacted to what has happened is because deep
inside you know this to be true.

I will state that Bob Fletcher is a liar and a childish manipulator.  He
is the worst kind of scum, and only that kind of scum could betray a
friendship such as what I thought that him and I had.  There was no
reason for what he did to cut off ParaNet from Australia the first time
a couple of years ago. The only motivation was that he wanted to gain
control of the name in your country for his own agenda.  Since you are
not interested in truth, I will not go into further detail here, but
suffice it to say, there are enough ParaNet people who can attest to his
actions, and know that it was not instituted by me.  I found out that
the only reason he was desirous in re-establishing his contact to us was
that he had hatched a plan to raid our files and charge for access to
his BBS as well as to provide material for your magazine, all without
acknowledgment of where it was ripped off from.  I noticed in the one
issue of NEXUS that you sent me, there was material that was taken from
ParaNet, all without any acknowledgment whatsoever.  I don't know about
you, but here that is shameful and dishonorable.  However, when the
final death bell was sounded for you guys is when Fletcher took
exception to my separate arrangements with Vlad Godic.  It had nothing
to do with Fletcher, nor you. It was not designed to affect your link
other than to provide a reliable feed to the serious people who were
more interested in ufology than silly games and politics which have
nothing to do with ufology. Bob cut the feed off, and I have the
messages archived to prove it.  I don't give a damn if Fletcher kissed
your ass to prove that I cut you off, the truth is the truth, and I can
prove it far beyond whatever Fletcher's lying face says.

Finally, ParaNet is a business just like NEXUS.  I don't have to put up
with any shit from anyone, period.  Again, you nor anyone else can
adversely affect ParaNet by your dribble.  I have heard this shit so
much before, I am used to it.  The truth is self-evident.  The funny
thing is that the observing public can see right through your veil and
have ascribed your actions to jealousy. YOU were not cut off by me.
Fletcher cut you off and didn't have the guts to inform you of his
decision.  I would have seriously entertained establishing a feed to
you, however you demonstrated your true agenda and I find that you are
just like the rest of those that we would not allow in ParaNet simply
because you are not interested in truth.

So, as far as I'm concerned, you have found your network of second
choice, MUFONet.  I hope you enjoy what you get.  And, finally, a word
of warning. Internet is much different than FidoNet.  The difference is
like sandbox and college.  In Internet, there are rules of conduct.
Just remember that anything you do in Internet can adversely affect your
status there.  This message is a private communication to you.  I do not
give you permission to publish it anywhere.  Should it show up anywhere
within Internet or public, I will have your user status revoked
immediately.  Also, if there are any further postings that are
derogatory to our organization or myself, I shall also take action to
have your user status revoked.  If you don't think this can happen, give
it a spin.

Never let it be said that I do not try to be fair.  If you have anything
further to say, I will be happy to discuss it with you, but I will not
play any more games.

Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP:
!scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET:
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!aio!galileo!kjenks
From: [e-mail] (Kenneth C. Jenks [GM2] 483-4368)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 02:49:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
Lines: 56
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4079 sci.skeptic:19855

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>            [...]  I also know the govt. is working on the Antarctica
>remnants.  And they are not about to tell us what they are finding.

Do you have any idea WHY "the government" would WANT to cover up
evidence of aliens or other non-verifiable phenomena?  What motivation
would any government have in such a cover-up?  How would it benefit
that government?  Who would it benefit?

I'm not disputing your claim that somebody might be working in
Antarctica (I know a few people who have, but they've never mentioned
any "remnants").  I'm looking for a realistic justification for a
seemingly irrational act: covering up events which could aid our
understanding of the Universe.  Why would (supposedly rational)
governmental agencies want to do such a thing?  If I can't figure out a
motive behind supposed cover-ups, I have a hard time believing a
cover-up would actually take place.

It can't be to deny the existence of alien intelligences.  NASA has
begun a very public SETI (Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence)
project.  We wouldn't have gotten funding if some people didn't think
it was worth the effort.  To justify the effort, one has to admit the
possibility of ETI's, but, at the same time, if we knew where they
were, we wouldn't have to search for them.

In the famous Watergate SNAFU, the reasons behind the attempted
cover-up was obvious.  Ditto in the Iran-Contra fiasco.  But why
would anybody want to suppress aliens, psi, "paranormal" activities,
etc.?

A cover-up would be practically impossible in most government agencies,
since paperwork trails can never be completely obscured, and documents
always seem to be leaked or declassified eventually.  Watergate and
Iran-Contra proved that there is always some evidence.  How could a
large-scale cover-up have occurred for many years without any
verifiable evidence appearing in the public eye?  Either there has
never been such a cover-up, or somebody has been VERY careful.  Why?

I admit I'm just here in alt.alien.visitors for the amusement value,
not because I take any of this stuff seriously, but I'm interested
in what motives might drive supposed government cover-ups.  Cross-
postint to sci.skeptic, but I don't read that newsgroup.


-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      [e-mail]  [phone]

     "[I swear] I will support and defend the Constitution of the
      United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I
      will bear faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this
      obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of
      evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties
      of the office on which I am about to enter.  So help me God."

        -- Standard Form 61, Appointment Affidavits, the oath taken
           by all new Federal employees.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA JFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 19:48:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>That's just it.  It's not just "the mind"--it's the BEING.

    How silly of us.
    The mind IS the being. I am my mind. Not my body, obviously
(since I would then be less ME if I had an artificial leg), but my mind
is what makes me ME.
    Praytell what else is there BUT mind and body? (that you can show
evidence for, that is)

>BTW Scott...are you a college boy by any chance?

    Is there a relevance to this question? 80% of those on this net
are college students, a large number of the rest are college employees.
Scott's a college student, I'm sure; I'm a graduate student looking at
my approaching 30th birthday, so I sure ain't no kid any more, though I'm
certainly not old yet.

                Sea Wasp
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 20:16:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes:  "What else ise there but mind and body?"
>When one transcends mind and body:  pure consciousness.  Soul.
>Being.  Is-ness.

    Sorry, static on the line here. Seems to me that consciousness is
a manifestation of the mind. I said something that you can show EVIDENCE
for. There is no evidence for the existence of a "soul" separate from
the mind.

>Read some Tibetan Buddhist material, or something by Ngakpa
>Chogyam ("Rainbown of Liberated Energy") for instance.

    All the Buddhist material I've ever read either deals trivially
with the ethics of behavior, or wanders off into philosophy (as do most
religions) without having any signposts to mark the point at which the
writer is leaving reality. This departure point appears to be about as
swift as most other religions (that is, virtually immediate).

>BTW, your comment to me using "milady" makes me think of Renaissance
>days...do you remember your incarnation back then by any chance?

    I'm quite sure I HAD no incarnations before this, nor will I
have any after. You're born, you live, you die.
    I use that terminology, Lady K, because I am a fantasy writer
and a role-playing gamer and I try to be somewhat more courteous to
ladies than to men. (Perhaps this makes me sexist... so be it.)


                    Sea Wasp
                    (aka about 60 other names)
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA: UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 15:05:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 25

Mary Ross writes about the possibility that the ets use
different vibrational frequencies, etc.

Mary, I believe that is it.  They have the knowledge/technology
which can "shield" themselves from being seen via camera
equipment, but can opt to "unshield" themselves to the naked
eye (or the Third Eye...that which is used for spiritual sight
by some evolved enough to do so).

In the contact notes of Bille Meier and Semjase, there is
some discussion about blocking, etc.

About your comment regarding the negativity on this newsgrouup:
well, there are some school boys out here, I am afraid.  I have
taught enough of them in jr. high to say that some of them
want attention, and will strive to get it, even if they have
to get 'negative' attention.  Sometimes it is just best to
ignore the time wasters.

Kathy

For a self-satisied person there is no chance of progress,
because he clings contentedly to his taste according to
his state of evolution, refusing to advance a step higher
than his present level.   --Hazrat Inayat Khan
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From: [e-mail] (Ron Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: abductions [was Re:  Did a little research on Zeta Ret.]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 12:49:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: VORT Computing    Calgary, Alberta, Canada    ...calgary!vort
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ron Hill) writes:
>>The program tried to present a journalistically balanced view of abduction
>>episodes.  A neurologist was interviewed;  he attributed abduction events
>>to hallucinations induced by hyperactivity in the hippocampus and the
>>amygdala.  An historian who has interviewed ~50 abductees (~300 episodes)
>
>Most of the theories I've heard attribute it to problems in the temporal
>lobes.   Where are the hippocampus and amygdala located?

These are old cortical structures (old in the evolutionary sense, what
people used to call "primitive").  They're supposed to have a function in
processing of memory, integration of memory with experience and
recognition of faces.  Take that with a grain of salt; it's from memory.

>>was also interviewed;  he says there are too many similarities in fine
>>details between events to make it possible to dismiss them as
>>hallucinations.
>
>There's one thing that bothers me about the argument that similarity of
>details is evidence that something physical happened:  What if the
>abduction experience is somehow encoded in the structure of our brains?  I
>don't mean that it was encoded there *by* anyone, I mean that when certain
>stimuli are applied (such as in Persinger's experiments), the brain goes
>into a particular mode of operation that reads a different "program" than
>the normal one.  Look at it this way:  if you jump to a random location in
>your computer's memory, it will probably crash.  But *another* computer (of
>the same model, of course) will crash the same way when you jump to the
>same location.

The assertion made by the neurologist was much the same as yours, namely
that the kinds of hallucinations experienced by "abductees" will be
strongly similar.  Some of the specific effects he mentioned were: a
sensation of floating (apparently common in abduction stories),
distortions in perception of the passage of time (accounting for lost
time), disruptions of long-term memory storage (accounting for amnesia)
and hallucinations of abstractions of human faces (accounting for both
similarities and differences between "aliens" and humans).  I think there
were other specific types of hallucinations mentioned, but I can't recall
what they are.

All the effects mentioned above are transient, that is, they last only as
long as the period of hyperactivity.  The neurologist also discussed the
"transcendental" aspect of the phenomenon; that is, the experience (once
remembered) tends to permanently alter an individual's world-view.  I
think this has also been described in conjunction with the relationship
between temporal lobe hyperactivity and religious conversion.

One interesting aspect of the interview was the historical dimension of
the phenomenon.  In past ages, people would have interpreted events of
this sort as demonic possession.  The shift to an alien abduction
interpretation is relatively recent.  On the other hand, real alien
abduction incidents (if true) would also probably have been interpreted as
demonic possession too, so we can't use this aspect of it to get at the
truth.

One facet which the neurologist did not address is why *both* people
involved in the event experienced hallucinations simultaneously.  I don't
know if an external stimulus could produce such an effect, or how often
this kind of disorder occurs, so that remains an open question.

--
-RJH ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA: UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 15:43:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Mary Ross writes about the possibility that the ets use
>different vibrational frequencies, etc.

    (Please note: this "different vibrational frequencies" mumbo-jumbo
is straight out of the 1930-1950 era space opera science fiction genre. It's
outmoded. At least choose your base of fiction differently.)

>Mary, I believe that is it.  They have the knowledge/technology
>which can "shield" themselves from being seen via camera
>equipment, but can opt to "unshield" themselves to the naked
>eye (or the Third Eye...that which is used for spiritual sight
>by some evolved enough to do so).

    So how do they manage this when someone is WATCHING them at the
SAME TIME as they are being filmed? Won't work at all. Cameras work on
the same principles as the eye, and recieve the impulses of light and
react to them based on the laws of physics (and, to quote the noted
authority Montgomery Scott [ :)  ] "Ye canna change the laws o' physics!").

>About your comment regarding the negativity on this newsgrouup:
>well, there are some school boys out here, I am afraid.  I have
>taught enough of them in jr. high to say that some of them
>want attention, and will strive to get it, even if they have
>to get 'negative' attention.  Sometimes it is just best to
>ignore the time wasters.

    Hmm. Considering prior posts, I must assume the lady (I now use
the term loosely, since her postings have recently had the politeness
level of a dockworker in a bad mood) refers to me and Scott and the other
realists here.
    "Ignore the time wasters"... A shame you can't heed your own words,
milady. Your belief in nonprovable phenomena causes you to waste a great deal
of time and effort, which could otherwise be turned to more constructive
ends (and it's obvious, by the fluency with which you write, that you have
a good deal of potential there).
    By the way: if attention was what I wanted, I could have gotten it
just as easily by writing in AGREEMENT with you, with full eloquence. I
can write in your vein of pseudoscientific jargon even better than YOU do.
No, I'm writing because I won't let utter nonsense go unchallenged. I
don't expect you will ever change your beliefs -- they are obviously too
important to your sense of self for that to happen -- but I am at least sending
a signal to the others who might stop by and read this group that there are
SOME who believe that aliens might visit/be visiting Earth... and who have
the training to deal with that possibility rationally.
    (Junior high? Hm. What do you teach, eh? I'll bet it isn't science.
If it is, I shudder to think what kind of damage the teachers after you
will have to undo.)

                Sea Wasp
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 16:03:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

Ryk Spoor (Sea Wasp) writes: "How does this work when
someone is WATCHING them at the same time?"

Well, are there cases wherein this has actually happened? (i.e...
someone claimed to 'see' them but could not get it on camera?)

I would say they probably have blocking techniques that work
through air wave vibrational frequency.  Remember, a camera
is a machine.  The human eye contains the light of the Soul.

BTW, I used to teach music (chorus and general music). I am
a musician and very artistically inclined.  I play piano and
started to learn Celtic harp.  I am very right brained and
quite intuitive.

The scientists still have a lot to learn about integrating
both sides of the brains.

Incidentally, to reply to your negative attention getting needs
comments..most people love attention and response.  It indicates
to them that someone is taking an interest in their thoughts/ideas/
beings and that they have enough caring to respond to them
(hopefully the response is in a polite and caring manner, sometimes
the communication gets negative because of the projecting of
that type of energy).  Repeatedly you have attempted to put down
my way of being and my way of perceiving/knowing...it is your
perogative to do so, and I do feel it is a way that the ego
has of attempting to "make itself heard".

We all have ego..but some are working hard to purify more than
others.  Some are very intellectual and caught into mind sets.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 03:31:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Scott:
>
>Grow up.  Learn what it means to be a mn instead of an
>obnoxious little boy.

Hey! I thought you weren't going to talk to me until I learned some manners!
Have I learned them yet?  Will you ever stop contradicting yourself?

>Learn what it means to honor the divine feminine in woman.

Translation:  Blindly obey me or face the wrath of PMS...

>The more you spout off, the more stupid you sound.
>
>Learn some basic manners in life.  I realize you do not inwardly
>respect yourself and you carry a lot of rage and anger, but this
>is your issue to work out.

Basic manners?  I take it that everyone who disagrees with you is
rude and impolite?  Do you consider your stereotypical attacks on
science Emily Post behavior?

>Just because you demand for people to give you answers does not
>mean they have to give you answers.  You have a lot of learning
>ahead of you in this lifetime.

You don't have to do anything for me.  However, if you continue making
claims about extraordinary powers, I am going to continue to request that
you demonstrate them for all interested parties.  Once again to remind you
of what I have asked so you don't forget:
1. What is the vibrational frequency of air?
2. What are the 5 leftmost books on the shelf over my desk?
Put up or shut up...

>Realize you are stuck with your own negative energy.  I realize
>you are after attention and will grab for it in any way you can.

Well, you got the first sentence right.  If the free energy of
forming that unique combination of molecules that is me were not
negative, I don't expect I'd be here.  I'm damned grateful for my
negative energy.  It all relates to this mumbo-jumbo called
thermodynamics but I digress...

>Kathy
>
>A man's situation is different. Both physiologically and psychologically
>he is usually less attuned to the ebb and flow of his moods than
>is woman.  As a result, the goddess can take him by surprise.  Sometimes
>she appears to usurp his entire personality so that a man in this state
>seems almost to speak with her voice, in a womanish, irrational,
>and even hysterical way.
>   --Sallie Nicholsm "Jung and Tarot, An Archetypal Journey"

Scott

"Their (women's) role is to learn, listening quietly and with due
submission.  I do not permit women to teach or dictate to the men;
they should keep quiet.  For Adam was created first, and Eve
afterwards; moreover it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the
woman who, yielding to deception, fell into sin." - 1 Timothy 2:12
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 21:11:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 82

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor questions, "..whether the writer is leaving reality.."
>That is the key point:  What is reality?  You think that which
>you see here is the *only* reality?  Because you have not yet
>to see others, does that mean they do not exist?

    Not at all. But this IS the only reality that MATTERS, because
it is the only one that can have direct effects on me. If you can
travel/contact other realities and produce effects on yourself equivalent
to those initiated by this reality (for example, if you can "go" to one
of these "other realities"  and feed yourself and never need food here)
then I will concede that these other realities are real enough to merit
serious research into their functionality.
    But if these so-called other realities can't be used to produce
effects in THIS reality, that I inhabit, then their existence becomes
as trivial as the question of what happened before the Big Bang is
to the average man. The answer or lack thereof will have no effect on them
or their lives.
    "A difference which MAKES no difference IS no difference". If
you can transfer yourself into another Reality and avoid or change
effects in THIS one, then I will agree that your other realities are
existent. Otherwise, you are talking about merely a different way
of looking at THIS reality... and I don't need to be a philosopher
to look at this reality in a  different way. I just have to be
"different" myself -- stoned, insane, or just half-asleep or maybe
wired out. But no matter HOW I view this reality -- even if I get
so far out that I percieve the #60 bus as a giant ice cream sundae --
REALITY itself remains unchanged. I may think I see a giant sundae,
but I'll still be a bumper ornament on a bus no matter what I
believe.

>direct experience, no longer mere speculation.  Of course, one
>person could never "explain or prove" reality to another.

    Certainly you can. To use an extreme example, you could
deny the reality of a gun all you wanted, but if someone pulled the
trigger (assuming a loaded, operating weapon) the bullet would
demonstrate its reality MOST conclusively.
    On a more genteel plane, milady, to demonstrate that you
can contact "another" reality, all you need do is produce some
physical result on yourself that follows from the actions of this
other reality. For example, only eat something in that other reality
for two months. If you fail to even lose weight, you've proven that
the "other reality" you're talking about is just as real as this one.

>You see a chair in your kitchen and say that is reality, and yet,
>read Chopra...physics, etc...about space, air, etc.

    Even physics agrees that the chair is there. THe amount of
actual matter occupying that space is indeed small, but the  object/
concatenation of objects that makes up that chair is undoubtedly there.
(You may not be able to determine EXACTLY where "there" is, since
Heisenberg restricts the calculation of location and velocity to only
one of the two, but you can determine a locus (very  sharply defined!)
that the chair occupies.)

>people have been helped through the help of a shaman wherein
>medical doctors failed.  The mind is a complex thing.

    Yep. Called psychosomatic illness and other things allied to it.
The mind IS a complex thing, and the mind coupled with the body can do
amazing things, including releasing endorphins and a whole host of other
chemicals which can inhibit pain and change other bodily functions.
Many diseases can be affected by state of mind BECAUSE of the bodily
functions that one's attitudes affect. Depression or fear place an immense
strain on the body; a shaman/faith healer/psychologist/Medical Doctor
can sometimes relieve these fears and replace them with a different
attitude that frees up immense resources for the body to use in
fighting off disease. Shamans and so on often fail because they are
in the position of offering cures for faith.  An MD is generally expected
to give all sides of the problem, including the fact that no cure is
100% certain. But the MD can produce the same result in people that have
absolute faith in him by simply saying "this treatment WILL make you
better." But the key is belief. If you believe the shaman/psychologist/faith
healer, his treatment has a good chance of working... because HE isn't
going to help you... it's your own mind and body that will.
    This has nothing to do with other realities; it's the marvelous
functioning of the biological mechanism that is the human body, controlled
by the human mind.


                    Sea Wasp
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 21:33:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 50

Ryk Spoor writes: "if youcan "go" to one of these "other
realities" and feed yourself and never need food here.."

Actually, it has been known and recorded of various yogis
who go into samadhi for years..such as sitting near trees..
their fingernails growing into the bark...they are still
living bodily, but are in other dimensions/realities/states
of consciousness (whatever word you wish to use, etc.)

Admittedly we are here in physical bodies that need food and
water (unless you happen to be a breatharian, or which
they have been documented, too [such as Theresse Neumann])
but when traveling/visiting other dimensions/states of consciousness,
the visiting may be done with other bodies (other than, or in addition
to, the physical).  Matter-consciousness is not all that exists.

I will end this post with excerpts from "Autobiography of a Yogi"
by Paramahansa (means Great Soul) Yogananda...

"A yogi who trhough perfect meditation has merged his consciousness
with the Creator perceives the cosmical essence as ligh (vibrations
of life energy); to him there is no difference between the light
rays composing water and the light rays composing land.  Free
from matter-consciousness, free from teh three dimensions of space
and the fourth dimension of time, a master transfers his body
of light with equal ease over or through the light rays of earth,
water, fire, and air."
--
BTW, in mentioning about the yogi who stays motionless near a tree,
he does NOT eat any food whatsoever.  Also, yogis have been known
to accomplish phenomenal feats (such as being locked in small
boxes for days, etc.)..

Kathy

"What has life or death to do with light?  In the image of My light
I have made you.  The realtivities of life and death belong to the
cosmic dream.  Behold your dreamless being!  Awake, My child, awake!"

   --Autobiography of a Yogi

Also, since you are "scientifically minded"..here's another to
contemplate:  "As steps in man's awakening, the Lord inspires scientists
to discover, at the right time and place, the secrets of His creation.
Many modern discoveries help man to apprehend the cosmos as a varied
expression of one power--light, guided by divine intelligence.  The
wonders of the motion picture, of radio, of television, of radar,
of the photoelectric cell--the amazing "electric eye," of atomic
energies, ar all based on the electromagnetic phenomenon of light.
   --Autobiography of a Yogi, Ch. 30, Law of Miracles, p. 318
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From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 21:47:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes: "if youcan "go" to one of these "other
>realities" and feed yourself and never need food here.."
>
>Actually, it has been known and recorded of various yogis
>who go into samadhi for years..such as sitting near trees..
>their fingernails growing into the bark...they are still
>living bodily, but are in other dimensions/realities/states
>of consciousness (whatever word you wish to use, etc.)

    Hearsay. If this could truly be done (i.e., a person take in
no food or water for, say, a few weeks and still be alive, let alone
not losing weight) it would be the biggest news in medical history.
If it could be done it'd be being studied about as intensely as anything
else in history, since the implications (even ignoring the "other realities"
question) are titanic.
    Anyone who could demonstrate such an ability could write his
own ticket. And I'd find it hard to believe that only people totally
uninterested in demonstrating their technique would gain these
talents.

>BTW, in mentioning about the yogi who stays motionless near a tree,
>he does NOT eat any food whatsoever.  Also, yogis have been known
>to accomplish phenomenal feats (such as being locked in small
>boxes for days, etc.)..

    That's not so hard to believe; I can easily believe in a state
of suspended animation that allows a person to go comatose for some
number of days (maybe up to a week) and still be alive at the end of it;
after all, a lot of animals hibernate for longer than that. But
I'll bet the yogi loses some weight during that time.
    Now, if he could do that same stunt in a box the same size which,
instead of air, was filled with pure nitrogen, THAT would impress me.

>Many modern discoveries help man to apprehend the cosmos as a varied
>expression of one power--light, guided by divine intelligence.  The
>wonders of the motion picture, of radio, of television, of radar,
>of the photoelectric cell--the amazing "electric eye," of atomic
>energies, ar all based on the electromagnetic phenomenon of light.

    True. Although there does not seem to be anything mystic about that.
Also, there are other powers known: a total of four, in fact. There is
the strong nuclear, or "color" force, the weak nuclear, the electromagnetic,
and the gravitic. The interesting thing is that while relationships can be
demonstrated between the first three, giving reasonable ability to fit
them into a single theory, gravity stubbornly remains an "unrelated" force.
We can describe WHAT it does, but we still don't know WHY yet... and it
is the only major force remaining in that category. Not surprising, really,
since gravity is both the weakest and the strongest force (weakest element per
element, but strongest in the end) and the hardest to measure... and certainly
the hardest to manipulate.


                    Sea Wasp
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA JFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 21:23:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Scott the Great (???) writes: "if a UFO is only going to
>appear to the mind.."
>
>That's just it.  It's not just "the mind"--it's the BEING.

What's the difference?  Even if you claim there is one, where's your
evidence?  By the way, just to remind you:  What is the vibrational
frequency of air?  And what are the first 5 books on the shelf in my
office.  PUT UP OR SHUT UP (for the 8th time or so)...

>BTW Scott...are you a college boy by any chance?

My status is irrelevant.  I have an office, you figure it out.  In fact,
why not just project yourself onto the Astral plane and come down here
and see what I do for a living.  Better yet, tell me the name of the
two national magazines my name has appeared in during the past month.  That
will explain a great deal about me.  Here's a helpful hint: the two articles
have been clipped out and placed on the bulletin board outside my office...
So while you're reading the titles of those books, just scoot outside
my office and look on the board.  Should be trivial for an adept like you.
All those amazing powers and you have to ask ME the questions?  Sheeeessshhh!

>Kathy
>
>   Be
>as a page that aches for a word
> which speaks on a theme
>  that is timeless
>
>    --Neil Diamond: BE, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

Scott
"Your baloney has a first name, it's B U L L..."
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 17:34:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Ryk Spoor (Sea Wasp) writes: "How does this work when
>someone is WATCHING them at the same time?"
>
>Well, are there cases wherein this has actually happened? (i.e...
>someone claimed to 'see' them but could not get it on camera?)

Many I'm sure, but I'll bet there's another explanation...

>I would say they probably have blocking techniques that work
>through air wave vibrational frequency.  Remember, a camera
>is a machine.  The human eye contains the light of the Soul.

Alright, I'll ask you, WHAT IS the airwave vibrational frequency?  And if a UFO
is only going to appear to the mind then why bother to make it visible to the
eye in the first place?

>BTW, I used to teach music (chorus and general music). I am
>a musician and very artistically inclined.  I play piano and
>started to learn Celtic harp.  I am very right brained and
>quite intuitive.
        :Is this a cry for attention or what?  Validate me!
         Validate me!  I is talented!

>The scientists still have a lot to learn about integrating
>both sides of the brains.
      :Can
Oh PUUUUHHHHLLLLLLEEEEEEEZZZZZZ...  Hofstaedter is a fantastic author,
Feynman made nude paintings of striptease dancers, Jane
Richardson is a fantastic artist, a mathematician friend of mine took best
on the East Coast for her musical instrument, and the list could go on and
on...  People like this are all soulless automata because they disagree with
you, eh?  Wake up, There are more scientists who are artists or pursue things
totally unrelated to the left brain than you'd ever believe.  I have
to see a radical new ager contribute ANYTHING to science.  Must be a
huge government conspiracy, eh?

>that type of energy).  Repeatedly you have attempted to put down
>my way of being and my way of perceiving/knowing...it is your
>perogative to do so, and I do feel it is a way that the ego
>has of attempting to "make itself heard".

Repeatedly, you have made assertions that are just plain ridiculous
or false.  If your beliefs are so weak that they cannot address the
slightest criticism, perhaps it is time to reevaluate them.  Give
me any hard evidence for reevaluating mine and I will...
You said you have mental powers.  Once again I am reminding you to
put up or shut up...  In the words of someone you probably look up
to "Do or do not, there is no try."

>We all have ego..but some are working hard to purify more than
>others.  Some are very intellectual and caught into mind sets.

Some people are so obsessed with their new age claptrap that they refuse
to even try to examine it critically.  It's kind of like religious
fundamentalism.  Therefore, you and I will bang heads until I get bored
with replying to your manure.

>Kathy

Scott
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA JFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 18:51:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 15

Scott the Great (???) writes: "if a UFO is only going to
appear to the mind.."

That's just it.  It's not just "the mind"--it's the BEING.

BTW Scott...are you a college boy by any chance?

Kathy

   Be
as a page that aches for a word
 which speaks on a theme
  that is timeless

    --Neil Diamond: BE, Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!ultb!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!TJM8890
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 21:24:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4093 talk.religion.newage:8759 sci.skeptic:19861
Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxb.isc.rit.edu

Hi W.P.Coyne!

>  So what independent evidence have you got.  Just as a skeptic would
>not accept the truth of the Bible based just on the Bible, or the truth
of the Koran based just on the Koran, so why should the claims of
>a channeller be accepted as true just because they say so.

  Exactly.  This is why I test all the concepts that I read about
on reality itself, and compare it to the knowledge I glean every
day in my life.  If there is a concept I cannot understand or
verify, I merely hold it in storage until the day I can realize
the true natures of the concept.

  It is my perception so far that there is truth in what some
channelers are saying.  It was not based on unconditional gullible
belief, but from an understanding of the concepts and the
successful application of those to my reality (i.e. your beliefs
form your PERSONAL reality).

  So, I'm pretty sure that if you were to read the books yourself
you would be able to discern for yourself if those concepts are
valid or not.  Maybe you'll read them and find you are not interested
in them, in which case you go along your own path, experiencing life
according to your wishes.

                            Tyson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 23:26:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 47

Ryk Spoor writes:  "If this could be done...it would be the
biggest news in medical history".

Well, it HAS been done.  Check out the book "Therese Neumann,
Mystic and Sitgmatist" by Adalbert Albert Vogl, Tan Books
and Publishers.

Therese's case has been documented and she was carefully watched
and oberved for long long periods of time.  She ate NO food,
only water and a communion wafer periodically.

Beings such as this have obviously translated themselves into
beings who can receive energy directly from the air and no
longer need it for their bodies.

Also check out the book on The Incorruptibles...bodies of saints
...their bodies SHOW NO SIGN OF DECAY whatsoever and are intact.
I have one book which lists some of them and also shows their bodies
(displayed often in various cathedrals in Europe).

The story of yogis is not hearsay.  One finds these things not
uncommon in India.

Sorry you don't want to believe it or accept it, but it's true.

Medical history people just aren't really too hep, soemtimes about
the extraordinary.  They tend to ignore the incredible.

Therese Neumann really existed, and so did Padre Pio (the Capucine
monk who could do bi-location).  I met a man who was healed
through his contact with Padre Pio and also experienced Padre
Pio in his hospital (a bi-location).

Kathy

"At this time, in the spring of 1922, Therese had lost the urge to
eat anything whatever and felt no need for food.  It is an
established fact that after that time she did not take any sold food
in any way, shape or form for the rest of her life; thus her
total abstinence lasted 40 years.  The infinitesimal amount of
water which she used in properly swallow the Host was not enough
to sustain life.  Even that bit of water was dispensed with in
1926..."

   Vogl: "Therese Naumann, Mystic an Stigmatist"
If you wish to order the book, write to:  Tan Books and Publishers,
PO Box 424, Rockford, IL 61105
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 20:02:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 46

Ryk Spoor writes:  "What else ise there but mind and body?"

When one transcends mind and body:  pure consciousness.  Soul.
Being.  Is-ness.

Mind and body wish to control; be in dominance, do not wish to
let soul come in and take dominion.

Read some Tibetan Buddhist material, or something by Ngakpa
Chogyam ("Rainbown of Liberated Energy") for instance.

Not ALL on this net are college boys.  I have had correspondence
via private email with many who are *not*...they do not post
much publicly, because of the pointless arguments and trivialities
that appear on these nets (such as on alt.alien.visitors and
talk.religion.newage).

However, I find I always learning something, even when speaking
to the sleepy ones.

BTW, your comment to me using "milady" makes me think of Renaissance
days...do you remember your incarnation back then by any chance?

Kathy

"Air-Element personalities are very Powerful and very Interesting.
They exist in all cultures or at least have existed in all cultures.
Wherever they are to be found they are recognized as Special People.
Some are very Special People indeed and are known as Mystics, Lamas,
Medicine-people, Shamans, Sufis, Wizards, Witches, Witch-doctors,
Sorcerers, Magicians, Yogins, Yoginis, Seers, and Saints.  There
are many mor names for these people than these because they have
existed in all societies and at all times throughout history.

It's not easy to say much about these people because psychologically
they are outside most people's frame of reference altogether.  It's
really only possible to discuss how they appear - but that is not
such a simple matter either, because they seem different in the
eyes of different people.  Some of them have either discovered Space
and are Integrating it with as many moments of their lives as they
can Open themselves to.  Some of them have just Discovered Space or
are in the process of Discovering it."

   --Ngakpa Chogyam: "Rainbow of Liberated Energy"
Note:  Ven.Ngakpa Chogyam became an Initiated Ngakpa (Awareness-spell
person) and gives courses on the Tibetan Mystic Path.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 00:25:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) says:

>Ryk Spoor writes: "There are a hundred ways to PROVE it
>to me".
>
>The point is:  You have to PRIVE it to YOURSELF.
>
>RK write:  "Tell me something that no one but me knows."
>
>Well, I will try:
>Did you wet your pants a lot when you were little?
>More specifically, some time between the ages of 7 and 9?
>
>Kathy
>
>All that is transient,
>Is but reflected;
>All that's inadequate,
>Here it is perfected;
>The indiscribable,
>Here it is done;
>The ever-Womanly
>Leads us anon!
>
>  --Chorus Mysticus, Mahler's Sym. No. 8.
>
>

Gee, can women be anal retentive also?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Message to Scott the Great and the other one (anal retentive)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 00:32:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 15

Scott and the other one (oops, I forgot your name...the one who
mentioned something about women being anal retentive):

I think both of you should go home and let your mothers teach
you some manners.

When you learn to speak in a civil tone, I will consider speaking
with you...and not until then.

Kathy

Man may propagate and celebrate the Divine Spirit but it is through
woman alone that the spirit is made flesh.

    --Sallie Nichols
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csd1227
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: abductions [was Re:  Did a little research on Zeta Ret.]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 07:43:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>There's one thing that bothers me about the argument that similarity of
>details is evidence that something physical happened:  What if the
>abduction experience is somehow encoded in the structure of our brains?

I think I understand what you're talking about.  I can see it accounting
for the so-called 'near-death experiences' of seeing the light at the
end of a tunnel, of the feeling of being a disembodied spirit looking
at oneself on the operating table.  But putting together a complicated
abduction scenario with unknown beings seems to be going quite a bit too
far.  We see similar stories within regions, but other geographical areas
often seem to have different alien types assigned to them.  There are
quite a few aductees who claim to have been taken in a perfectly lucid
state of mind, requiring no hypnotism to uncover the details.  Their
descriptions match the ones of those requiring hypnotism.  And there
are reports of groups of people seeing the same beings at the same
time (i.e., they see the same scenario, not just the same faces).
I wouldn't doubt that your idea might account for some phenomena, but
I have a hard time seeing how it would cause this one.

Greg.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csd1227
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: strange aircraft?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 07:53:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert S. Ray) writes:
>Not long ago, I saw an UFO (?) It looked just like the one that I saw on a t.v.
>show called Unsolved Mysteries.
>It had a triangular shape.  Its color was
>black.  The corners had bright, white lights and the middle of the craft had
>a small red light. It seemed to be about 100-250 feet off the ground.

Please tell us more.  Where did you see it, how was it behaving, etc.
There was a 'flap' of seemingly similar objects in the Hudson Valley area
not long ago, as well as one in Belgium.   They had the characteristic
of flying low and very slowly, flying in straight lines and oblivious to
the populace below.  They would occasionally make wide 180 degree turns,
as though doing an ariel survey over an area of land.

Greg.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 20:32:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 35

Ryk Spoor questions, "..whether the writer is leaving reality.."

That is the key point:  What is reality?  You think that which
you see here is the *only* reality?  Because you have not yet
to see others, does that mean they do not exist?

So many people seem to think/assume that philosophies are 'just
talk'...but when one incorporates/creates a quest within himself..
perhaps taking the route of a mystic tradition...it is then
direct experience, no longer mere speculation.  Of course, one
person could never "explain or prove" reality to another.

You see a chair in your kitchen and say that is reality, and yet,
read Chopra...physics, etc...about space, air, etc.

A shaman sees/enters into extraordinary realities...simply because
they are not part of *your* world does not mean they exist.  Many
people have been helped through the help of a shaman wherein
medical doctors failed.  The mind is a complex thing.

Remember, the words mind are symbols for something.  I can not
describe to you or prove to you what is pure consciousness,
void, etc.

Kathy

Souls in the angelic heavens live as a breath.  The soul in its
nature is a current; the nature of this current is to envelop in
itself all that may come along and meet it on its way.  The soul
collects all that comes to it.  Therefore it becomes different
from its original condition.  Yet in its real being the soul is
a vibration, the soul is a breath, the soul is the Essence, the
soul is Intelligence, and the soul is the essence of the personality.

   --Hazrat Inayat Khan: "The Soul - Whence and Whither"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!wupost!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Great and the other one (anal retentive)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 01:09:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Scott and the other one (oops, I forgot your name...the one who
>mentioned something about women being anal retentive):

Hey I never said you were anal retentive.  I have just implied you are narrow
minded, arrogant, hyprocritical and mostly full of it.  You sound a lot like
most of the teachers I had to deal with as a teenager: Unimaginative,
boring, and authoritarian.  Do you espouse your philosophy to your
students?  It's too bad you can't give me detention for disagreeing with
you, eh?

>I think both of you should go home and let your mothers teach
>you some manners.

I think you should go back to school and learn some common sense.  The
thought of you teaching anything more sophisticated than potty training
is terrifying...

>When you learn to speak in a civil tone, I will consider speaking
>with you...and not until then.

Uh oh, now you've gone and done it.  You've contradicted yourself by
speaking to me.  An excellent time to remind you once again to demonstrate
your amazing powers.  What are the first 5 books on the shelf in my
office?  What is the vibrational frequency of air?  By avoiding me are
you now admitting that you are utterly INCAPABLE of answering either
of these questions?  I guess you're going to shut up rather than put
up.  Case closed...

>Kathy
>
>Man may propagate and celebrate the Divine Spirit but it is through
>woman alone that the spirit is made flesh.
>
>    --Sallie Nichols

Scott

"You will desire your husband, but he will be your master." Gen. 3:16
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csd1227
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 08:08:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 108

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kenneth C. Jenks [GM2] 483-4368) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>            [...]  I also know the govt. is working on the Antarctica
>>remnants.  And they are not about to tell us what they are finding.
>
>Do you have any idea WHY "the government" would WANT to cover up
>evidence of aliens or other non-verifiable phenomena?  What motivation
>would any government have in such a cover-up?  How would it benefit
>that government?  Who would it benefit?

Many conservative elements in this country have an us vs. them attitude,
where the 'them' is not necessarily aliens, but just the governments
of other (esp. communist) countries.   It is their moral obligation
to secure and keep secret any information that may give us an advantage,
militarily or otherwise.  The most obvious benefits would be to understand
how the craft themselves operate.  One can only imagine how many other
benefits there might be.

>I'm not disputing your claim that somebody might be working in
>Antarctica (I know a few people who have, but they've never mentioned
>any "remnants").  I'm looking for a realistic justification for a
>seemingly irrational act: covering up events which could aid our
>understanding of the Universe.  Why would (supposedly rational)
>governmental agencies want to do such a thing?  If I can't figure out a
>motive behind supposed cover-ups, I have a hard time believing a
>cover-up would actually take place.

It may not aid Joe Scientist down at NASA, but those involved would
probably like to keep whatever they learn to themselves - again
for reasons of national security.

  Some of them may be worried about public panic - about the effects
on organized religion, on the economy, and (perhaps most importantly)
on politics.  A conservative friend of mine gets emotionally upset any
time I mention the possibility of alien visitors, just like it bothers
him to be around people of different races/cultures.  It is obvious that
there are a lot of people like this, especially in the good ol' U.S.A.

>It can't be to deny the existence of alien intelligences.  NASA has
>begun a very public SETI (Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence)
>project.  We wouldn't have gotten funding if some people didn't think
>it was worth the effort.  To justify the effort, one has to admit the
>possibility of ETI's, but, at the same time, if we knew where they
>were, we wouldn't have to search for them.

SETI could be just a smokescreen against the media.  If someone from
the news calls NASA to find out about their opinion on ET's, they
get conveniently directed to Carl Sagan and what they're doing with SETI.
Admitting the possibility of ET's elsewhere is not the same as saying
they're here on Earth (perhaps in great numbers), and that they have
been abducting many people.

>In the famous Watergate SNAFU, the reasons behind the attempted
>cover-up was obvious.  Ditto in the Iran-Contra fiasco.  But why
>would anybody want to suppress aliens, psi, "paranormal" activities,
>etc.?
>
>A cover-up would be practically impossible in most government agencies,
>since paperwork trails can never be completely obscured, and documents
>always seem to be leaked or declassified eventually.  Watergate and
>Iran-Contra proved that there is always some evidence.  How could a
>large-scale cover-up have occurred for many years without any
>verifiable evidence appearing in the public eye?  Either there has
>never been such a cover-up, or somebody has been VERY careful.  Why?

Neither you nor I know how good the government is at cover-up operations,
since we don't know about the successes - just the failures.  Watergate
and Iran-Contra only show that the government does frequently engage in
large-scale coverup operations, and that when they get caught, they'll
just try harder next time.  Do you really think that if every coverup
attempt has failed, that they'd be so persistent?
There is ample evidence of government coverup - haven't you seen any of
the many crossed-out pages of govenment documents pertaining to UFO's
that have been publicly displayed?    If you are still
confused over why they would want to cover up alien visitations and
crashed saucers, then perhaps you need to do a little research
(and thinking!) on your own.

>I admit I'm just here in alt.alien.visitors for the amusement value,
>not because I take any of this stuff seriously, but I'm interested
>in what motives might drive supposed government cover-ups.  Cross-
>postint to sci.skeptic, but I don't read that newsgroup.

You might think your attitude represents a healthy skeptical attitude,
but a sincere skeptic wouldn't be so quick to offer a disclaimer (you
just HAD to let everyone know that you are here for laughs -  horror of
horrors if your boss were to see you talking seriously about UFOs!).
And a true skeptic wouldn't be so quick to be so utterly UN-skeptical about the
government's motives either.

>-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
>      [e-mail]  [phone]
>
>     "[I swear] I will support and defend the Constitution of the
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>      United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^^^^^^^
       Yup, this xenophobia is one element the driving force at work here.

>      will bear faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this
>      obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of
>      evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties
>      of the office on which I am about to enter.  So help me God."
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       And why should I take YOU seriously?
>
>        -- Standard Form 61, Appointment Affidavits, the oath taken
>           by all new Federal employees.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jan 92 08:35:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mary Ross)
says:
>According to 'my alien friend', they (and of course their ships)
>exist at a different vibrational frequency than we do.  One that is
>not naturally visible to us.  They have the ability to lower their
>frequency to become visible, much in the same manner as our meditation.
>This is why pictures may not appear clear, the ship is not completely
>visible therefore the picture is grainy.

I'm afraid Ashtar will have to do better than that.  Assuming the aliens really
do have the ability to control their visibility, once they make themselves
visible to the human eye, they are visible to the camera.  Please ask your
friend just what the frequency is that is completely visible to the human eye
and only partially visible to cameras.  If she would prefer to simply give
the wavelength, that is acceptable too...

>I know that this will possibly be a controversial topic/opinion,  I
>am a firm believer in listening to all possibilities and then deciding
>what sounds right for you.   I simply wanted to offer an explaination
>that has not previously been suggested.

No problem... Here's Ashtar's big opportunity to contribute to our
understanding of the universe.

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 03:18:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

Scott:

Grow up.  Learn what it means to be a mn instead of an
obnoxious little boy.

Learn what it means to honor the divine feminine in woman.

The more you spout off, the more stupid you sound.

Learn some basic manners in life.  I realize you do not inwardly
respect yourself and you carry a lot of rage and anger, but this
is your issue to work out.

Just because you demand for people to give you answers does not
mean they have to give you answers.  You have a lot of learning
ahead of you in this lifetime.

Realize you are stuck with your own negative energy.  I realize
you are after attention and will grab for it in any way you can.

Stop your hysterics and work on getting your act together in
this lifetime.  You will be happier when you do.

Kathy

A man's situation is different. Both physiologically and psychologically
he is usually less attuned to the ebb and flow of his moods than
is woman.  As a result, the goddess can take him by surprise.  Sometimes
she appears to usurp his entire personality so that a man in this state
seems almost to speak with her voice, in a womanish, irrational,
and even hysterical way.

   --Sallie Nichols, "Jung and Tarot, An Archetypal Journey"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbnewsj!4str
From: [e-mail] (greg.a..clewell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 11:23:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>>Scott:
>>Grow up.  Learn what it means to be a man instead of an
>>obnoxious little boy.
>Hey! I thought you weren't going to talk to me until I learned some manners!
>Have I learned them yet?  Will you ever stop contradicting yourself?

>>Learn what it means to honor the divine feminine in woman.

>Translation:  Blindly obey me or face the wrath of PMS...
<shouldn't get into this>
On and on the feud rages!  Kathy, Scott, you two will never agree on anything!
Scott, oh great one, it is hard for your oh so analytical mind to fathom,
but the Redhead Goddess IS a goddess to some of us.  She doesn't have to
qualify herself, she just IS.  I know that won't satisfy you..  Basically
you should learn to honor the divine feminine in women. ;-)  Why do you attack
the goddess so relentlessly?   Face the wrath of pms?  Come on, you seem to
be taking the totally hostile position.   This isn't a court of law man,
just groove on the righteous chicks sayings.   You 2 would probably get along
in real life (tm).  It is so easy to be cruel on the faceless net.   Rant on
on goddess.  Scott, hope you find the proof, or lack of proof to indisputably
prove whatever you are trying to prove (is one of the five books on your desk
Green Eggs and Ham, by Dr. seuss?).   Love you Goddess!           _greg

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever, then, anything in nature seems to us ridiculous, absurd or evil,
it is because we have but partial knowledge of things, and are in the main
ignorant of the order and coherence of nature as a whole, and because we
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 12:22:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 35

Scott, no, you have not learned manners yet.  Sometimes
even truth can be contradictory.  Reread the Ngakpa's
section on being stern.

You get what you need in life, and what you need is some
one who cares enough to teach you the rudimentary necessities
of being polite to people and honoring them simply because
they happen to be human beings and part of Creation.

Don't worry about extraordinary powers...you are not ready
for that one, anyway.  When you are in kindergarten, college
calculus won't matter much or serve you well, anyway.

BTW, stop quoting Biblical passages to me...lots of male
patriarchy and chauvinism that I don't buy there (not *all*
of it is 'inspired', and there was evidently a lot of bungling
and mistranslations when it all got put together anyway).

Souls are equal regardless of sex.

Kathy

"Blake titles his picture, "The Female From His Darkness Rose".  Many
people nowadays say that it was in *spite* of Adam's darkness, not
*from* it, that Eve managed to get herself born.  They emphasize that
word "spite", too, as they recount how Eve (poor thing) has struggled
all these years against her man's unconsciousness, suffering the
many black looks (and black eyes) he has given her along the way!
But that isn't the way Blake painted it, or said it.  And it isn't
the way I feelabout it either. Blake says it was *from* Adam's
darkness--almost youmight say *because* of it, that Even came
into being."   --Sallie Nichols: "Jung and Tarot, An Archetypal Jour-
ney)
(in referenceto the drawing by William Blake: "The Female from His
Darkness Rose")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 12:28:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 20

Greg Clewell writes: "...she just IS."

Thank you, Greg, for understanding some things that are *beyond*
the analytical mind.  You said it so well.

Greg writes (in reference to Scott):"Why do you attack the
goddess so relentlessly?"

I would venture to guess because he is at odds with her in himself.
He has a big job ahead to reconciliate the opposites within
himself.

Greg, I could feel your light hearted energy as you made your
post.  Thanks much for the good and supportive energy.  I
appreciate it.  :-)

Kathy

"Our Being is a brilliant pattern of energies: a spectrum of
possibilities"  --Ngakpa Chogyam
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!darcy
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Message-ID: <422800022@peg>
Date: 27 Jan 92 23:29:00 GMT
References: <584090405@[e-mail]>
Lines: 7
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:584090405:peg:422800022:000:138
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!darcy    Jan 27 19:29:00 1992


Is this book by Petit available in English ?

If so, would someone please post details of publisher
and English language title.

Thanks.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!moxie!hackney
From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 14:01:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Home
Lines: 11
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4109 sci.skeptic:19870

[e-mail] (Kenneth C. Jenks [GM2] 483-4368) writes:
> I have a hard time believing a
> cover-up would actually take place.
> It can't be to deny the existence of alien intelligences.

What about Astronaut McDivot who saw the cylinder and arm UFO out his window,
photographed it extensively, told the world about this event on national
television, only to say that NASA made the film 'disappear' ?
--
Greg Hackney
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Past Lives Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 13:18:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19871 alt.alien.visitors:4110 talk.religion.newage:8765

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Reprinted from San Rafeal Independent Journal
> Tuesday, November 16, 1976
[..]
> The technique Showen shows is a very simple one;  he asks people questions about
> their past lives and urges them to give the first answer that pops into their
> minds. The individual who comes for counseling holds in his hand a gadget called
> a galvanic skin response meter, a biofeedback device which measures the degree
> of a person s emotional arousal .
>     When a person who talks about other existences shows a decided emotional
> response, that s an indication he s talking about a genuine experience,
> according to Showen.

I don't know much about it, but isn't that the same thing that is
called Lie Detector?  If you show a 'decided emotional response'
in this application, you are thought to be lying.  Or did I get it
all wrong, and it is the other way around?

-Caddy------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)--------
'An electron is a particle' is short for 'An electron behaves---
like a tiny billard ball', while 'An electron is a wave' is-----
short for 'An electron behaves like a tiny water surface wave'.-
But why should there be a thing in the macrocosmos that behaves-
like a huge electron?-------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 13:30:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4111 sci.skeptic:19873 alt.conspiracy:11047

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
> After reading all this, I'm inclined to wonder whether the person taping
> from the ground could have taped the *wrong* object.  Part of the tape did
> resemble a plane, as far as I could tell, but it would be pretty amazing
> for such a large number of people as claimed here, seeing as many objects
> as claimed here, to consistently mis-identify a plane.

No, if it was a plane, and the conditions were such that it was
difficult to recognize as a plane, many people looking at it
*should* mis-identify it.  They should see different things only
if one could recognize it from certain angles.

-Caddy------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)--------
'An electron is a particle' is short for 'An electron behaves---
like a tiny billard ball', while 'An electron is a wave' is-----
short for 'An electron behaves like a tiny water surface wave'.-
But why should there be a thing in the macrocosmos that behaves-
like a huge electron?-------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aquarius Project
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 12:48:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Lines: 27
Nntp-Posting-Host: unix1.tcd.ie

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael C. Wagner) writes:

>Anyone have anymore information on the Aquarius project(the name could be
>wrong).. Basically it is the goverments use of telepaths to track objects
>such as subs, houses, people etc.. Recently I have heard rumors that the
>"viewers" (A name given to these telepaths) were actually starting to
>track UFO's(Unknow objects)... Since the goverment is so amazingly good
>at hidding facts to the public for are supposed "Common good", was
>wondering if anyone has heard anything else, even if it is rumor(though
>please note is as so, if it is.)

Strangely enough, I was under the impression that this group was
supposed to discuss pseudo-science and its fraudulence. I think your
posting belongs in alt.alien.visitors, where it might find a more
receptive audience.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (navilluS'O nayrB)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Past Lives Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 15:48:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Lines: 22
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Nntp-Posting-Host: unix1.tcd.ie

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:

>I don't know much about it, but isn't that the same thing that is
>called Lie Detector?  If you show a 'decided emotional response'
>in this application, you are thought to be lying.  Or did I get it
>all wrong, and it is the other way around?

Seems correct -- also, the Scientologists use such things in their
E-meters. Apparently, the things show the user how much money he can get
out of his current victim :-)

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!zazen!psl.wisc.edu!gorski
From: [e-mail] (Tom Gorski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 16:01:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Wisconsin Physical Sciences Lab
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor (Sea Wasp) writes: "How does this work when
>someone is WATCHING them at the same time?"

[...]

>I would say they probably have blocking techniques that work
>through air wave vibrational frequency.  Remember, a camera
>is a machine.  The human eye contains the light of the Soul.

Unless you're ready to pluck out your own orbs and stumble around
illuminated only by the "light of the soul", I suggest that you
don't ignore the fact that like a cameras, eyeballs utilize photo-
electrical and chemical processes.

You're so quick to believe that the aliens have some trick science
that fools cameras, yet so slow to believe that the alien phenomenon
may in large measure just be the trick science of our own brains.
Can you have it both ways?

[...]

>We all have ego..but some are working hard to purify more than
             ^^^
>others.  Some are very intellectual and caught into mind sets.

Okay:  I've seen you spray that word [ego] around at the end of postings
like a can of mace or a paralyzer beam--to either disarm your
opponent or shame him/her into crawling back under the rock from which
they came.  It's very effective, pretending to transcend your own ego
while you comment on the next person's.

But here's the rub:  where are you coming from when you talk about somebody
else's ego?  If you're working on your own, why worry about the next guy's?
It's a crude bogus little manipulative game that you play!  I've seen it
(and done it myself) a hundred times and know exactly how it works.

Yes, I'm coming from my own ego right now, and I know it.  And so are
you when you slide in those little lines like the one above.

>
>Kathy
>
>
--Tom G.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 16:10:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4115 sci.skeptic:19876
Nntp-Posting-Host: unix1.tcd.ie

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes:

>What about Astronaut McDivot who saw the cylinder and arm UFO out his window,
>photographed it extensively, told the world about this event on national
>television, only to say that NASA made the film 'disappear' ?

I was a bit young for this kind of thing at the time, but surely, if
anyone took him seriously, I'd have heard something since then.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!rw7.urc.tue.nl!wsadjw
From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Past Lives Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 16:25:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19880 alt.alien.visitors:4116 talk.religion.newage:8770

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>> minds. The individual who comes for counseling holds in his hand a gadget called
>> a galvanic skin response meter, a biofeedback device which measures the degree
>> of a person s emotional arousal .
>
>I don't know much about it, but isn't that the same thing that is
>called Lie Detector?  If you show a 'decided emotional response'
>in this application, you are thought to be lying.  Or did I get it
>all wrong, and it is the other way around?
>

It's not only a Lie detector, it is a universal quack machine.
Scientology, electro-acupuncture according to Voll, the socalled
Emano-meter, Mora-therapy and probably a couple of others all
rely on this gadget.  With some training one can tell the most
barefaced lies without having the thing react (I've seen two
psychotherapists do that) ; conversely telling the truth about
something you don't like to think about elicits a response too.

JWN
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!edcastle!cam
From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 17:33:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4117 sci.skeptic:19881

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes:

>What about Astronaut McDivot who saw the cylinder and arm UFO out his window,
>photographed it extensively, told the world about this event on national
>television, only to say that NASA made the film 'disappear' ?

McDivot?? McDivot (like MacHinery) is a joke Scottish name!


--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!newcastle.ac.uk!news
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: EVIDENCE TYPES (was Flying S...Announcement)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 12:40:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.
Lines: 69
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Nntp-Posting-Host: poros

[e-mail] writes:

>Hi W.P.Coyne!

>>  So what independent evidence have you got.  Just as a skeptic would
>>not accept the truth of the Bible based just on the Bible, or the truth
>of the Koran based just on the Koran, so why should the claims of
>>a channeller be accepted as true just because they say so.

>  Exactly.  This is why I test all the concepts that I read about
>on reality itself, and compare it to the knowledge I glean every
>day in my life.  If there is a concept I cannot understand or
>verify, I merely hold it in storage until the day I can realize
>the true natures of the concept.

very sensible.

>  It is my perception so far that there is truth in what some
>channelers are saying.  It was not based on unconditional gullible
>belief, but from an understanding of the concepts and the
>successful application of those to my reality (i.e. your beliefs
>form your PERSONAL reality).

The important point is not whether there is truth in what they are saying
but whether they are giving information which is special - eg that
would not be known by the channeller( even if they were a cheat),
information which is new (eg new inventions, scientific theories etc).

   Humans have an impressive ability to believe what they want or what
confirms beliefs they already hold, while ignoring other information.
The history of trickery and self-trickery in paranormal things, and
the discoveries in psychology of various things (self-delusion methods,
the mind filling in gaps in observed reality - eg the eyes blind spot)

all these things make it vital to have claims which can be tested
experimentally, with repeated experiments.

>  So, I'm pretty sure that if you were to read the books yourself
>you would be able to discern for yourself if those concepts are
>valid or not.  Maybe you'll read them and find you are not interested

  I would be reluctant to accept as true any extremely controversial
claims purely on the evidence of a book, no matter how apparently
strong the evidence presented therein.  IF the claims are known to
go against the known scientific evidence, and few if any scientists
in those fields support the claims.

>valid or not.  Maybe you'll read them and find you are not interested
>in them, in which case you go along your own path, experiencing life
>according to your wishes.

How can you say "experiencing life according to your wished", surely
you believe people experience life which may or may not go according
to their wishes.  Or do you believe that people who get
murdered, tortured, robbed etc do so bacause they subconsiously
really wish it to happen. In which case what happens when to people
wish for opposite things for each other.
I ask because I have heard that some groups do believe that we each make
our own reality.
>                            Tyson

...........................................................................
Dept of Process and Chemical Engineering,+|If builders built buildings the
Newcastle University, United Kingdom.    +|way computer programmers write
                                         +|programs,
JANET: [e-mail]         +|then the first woodpecker that
UUCP : ...!ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!W.P.Coyne +|came along would destroy
ARPA : [e-mail]         +|civilisation.
...........................................................................
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From: [e-mail] (John Emery)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Flying Serpents and Dragons Book Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 17:06:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Well Bryan thanks for your warm skeptic response.  Its been so long since a
>skeptic has responded with such elegance that I was beginning to feel unloved
>and deserted. I was really beginning to think all the skeptics had all put me in
>their kill file. Skeptics are just inverted Christians, both stuck in their
>egos with no concept of their spirituality.  My purpose is to get skeptics and
>Christians to quit focusing on their egos which are going to die and start
>focusing on the aspects of theirselves that can t die. In that part of
>ourselves lies our real purposes for being and our real goals.

Dear Don, why do you believe that all those you speak of (esp. Christians)
are "stuck in their egos"?

You are loved,

John
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Andrew Rahe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 18:11:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
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In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


    Besides the fact that the U.S. government has no real reason to "cover
up" the existence of UFO's, there's the question that could they even
hide extraterriestial existence from the public? Does anybody realize
what other governments keep tabs on Uncle Sam through spies and
intelligence/counterintelligence? I'm sure the Soviets, Israelies,
British, and a slew of other countries would have found out about this
"classified" information by now. How many governments can keep UFO's a
secret from us unsuspecting masses?
    Oh, I get it, it must be one of them "world-wide military-industrial
conspiracy" things. Like JFK... yeah... that's it...
        Stephen Rahe
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 19:35:04 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan) writes:

>> What about Astronaut McDivot

> I was a bit young for this kind of thing at the time, but surely, if
> anyone took him seriously, I'd have heard something since then.
>    -- Bryan

Young? I assume that you are older than 2 days. It was on television 2 days
ago, on the Fox Network I think. A re-run, with interviews of McDivot and
Robert Lazar. (Incidently, I recorded it on VCR to show it to my son who
was at work at the time.)

I'm not claiming the story is true or false. All I'm saying is I saw
the interview (being broadcast to millions of homes) of an American astronaut
who told what he saw (a UFO) out the window of his spacecraft. He also said
it is being covered up by NASA.
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 19:38:02 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:

>> What about Astronaut McDivot
> McDivot?? McDivot (like MacHinery) is a joke Scottish name!

Interesting. But we Americans generally don't make fun of our national heros,
only certain Republican politicians. :-)
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From: [e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 21:10:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes...
>[e-mail] (Kenneth C. Jenks [GM2] 483-4368) writes:
>> I have a hard time believing a
>> cover-up would actually take place.
>> It can't be to deny the existence of alien intelligences.
>
>What about Astronaut McDivot who saw the cylinder and arm UFO out his window,
>photographed it extensively, told the world about this event on national
>television, only to say that NASA made the film 'disappear' ?

James Oberg, criticizing the entire "astronaut UFO sighting" list
from J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee's book _Edge of Reality_ in
his article "Astronaut 'UFO' Sightings," The Skeptical Inquirer vol. 3,
no. 1 (Fall 1978), p. 41 writes:

"June 3, 1964--Gemini 4:  Jim McDivitt reported he photographed several
strange objects, including a cylindrical object with arms sticking out
and an egg-shaped UFO with some sort of exhaust.
   "This is the most famous 'astronaut UFO' case, and it has been
embellished and distorted in dozens of publications.  McDivitt saw
a 'beer-can shaped' object which he took to be another man-made
satellite (some observers believe it was his own booster rocket), and
tried to take a few photos which did not turn out.  A still from the
movie camera (which McDivitt insists he never touched during the
sighting) was mistakenly released without the astronaut's review,
showing what turned out to be a light reflection off his co-pilot's
window, according to McDivitt.  UFO buffs took this photo and
acclaimed it as one of the best UFO photos ever taken, showing (they
claim) a glowing object with a plasma tail.  McDivitt never saw
anything like that in space.  Verdict:  Gross exaggeration and distortion
on the part of UFO writers.  Also, the year is wrong--it should be 1965."

>--
>Greg Hackney
>[e-mail]

Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
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From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 20:59:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 82

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>
>Scott, no, you have not learned manners yet.  Sometimes
>even truth can be contradictory.  Reread the Ngakpa's
>section on being stern.

truth (trooth) n.  1. Conformity to knowledge, fact actuality or logic. 2.
Fidelity to an original or standard. 3. Reality; actuality. 4. A statement
proven to be or accepted as true. 5. Sincerity; integrity; honesty.

true adj. 1. Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous.
2. Exactly conforming to a rule, standard, or pattern. 3. Reliable, accurate.
4. Real; genuine. 5. Faithful, as to a friend, vow, or cause; steadfast;
loyal.

contradictory adj. 1. Involving or having the nature of a contradiction. 2.
Given to contradiction. 3. Either of two propositions related in such a way
that it is impossible for both to be truth or both to be false.

Given the above definitions, please explain how truth can be contradictory
or is this another one of those assertions from the 8th dimensions which
you are so fond of making?  Surely you can explain the Ngapka
to an uncouth vile oaf like myself...

>You get what you need in life, and what you need is some
>one who cares enough to teach you the rudimentary necessities
>of being polite to people and honoring them simply because
>they happen to be human beings and part of Creation.

If you wish to have your quirky little views of life that is fine with me.
If you wish to dictate the nature of reality on this newsgroup, this thread
may never end...

>Don't worry about extraordinary powers...you are not ready
>for that one, anyway.  When you are in kindergarten, college
>calculus won't matter much or serve you well, anyway.

Avoiding the subject again...  A one... A two.. A one two three and...
1. What is the vibrational frequency of air?
2. What are the five leftmost books on my bookshelf in my office?
(Special bonus clue:  the sixth book is currently _The Last Days of
Christ the Vampire_ and Green Eggs and Ham is at home)
Put up or shut up, the saga continues...

>BTW, stop quoting Biblical passages to me...lots of male
>patriarchy and chauvinism that I don't buy there (not *all*
>of it is 'inspired', and there was evidently a lot of bungling
>and mistranslations when it all got put together anyway).

Have I asked you to stop quoting ultra-feminist new age pop psychology
claptrap?  As long as you continue to do so I will provide you with only
the very best translations of the Good News.  Since I am using the
Oxford Annotated Bible for all of my quotations, I can assure you that the
translations are very accurate as confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls
and numerous other sources.  Nothing but the best for you!  Are you
afraid of the Bible?

>Souls are equal regardless of sex.
>
>Kathy
>
>"Blake titles his picture, "The Female From His Darkness Rose".  Many
>people nowadays say that it was in *spite* of Adam's darkness, not
>*from* it, that Eve managed to get herself born.  They emphasize that
>word "spite", too, as they recount how Eve (poor thing) has struggled
>all these years against her man's unconsciousness, suffering the
>many black looks (and black eyes) he has given her along the way!
>But that isn't the way Blake painted it, or said it.  And it isn't
>the way I feelabout it either. Blake says it was *from* Adam's
>darkness--almost youmight say *because* of it, that Even came
>into being."   --Sallie Nichols: "Jung and Tarot, An Archetypal Jour-
>ney)
>(in referenceto the drawing by William Blake: "The Female from His
>Darkness Rose")

Scott

"Wives, be subject to your husbands as though to the Lord; for the man is the
head of the woman, just as Christ is the head of the Church. Christ is, indeed,
the saviour of that body; but just as the church is subject to Christ, so
must women be subject to their husbands in everything." - Ephesians 5:24
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From: [e-mail] (Prentiss Riddle)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Looking for a recent book on government involvement in paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 23:53:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Ministry of Information, William's Marsh
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:19892 alt.alien.visitors:4125

Some time within the past two or three years I heard an interview on
the NPR news with a journalist who had recently published a book on
U.S. government involvement in the paranormal.

The author came from a skeptical point of view with regard to
paranormal phenomena per se, but he had some claims about government
shenanigans which were pretty bizarre in themselves.  For instance, he
spoke at length about the Majestic-12 documents, asserting that they
had been forged by the U.S. Air Force in order to discredit UFO
researchers and get them to stop poking their noses into secret U.S.
military test flights, which the UFO community often mistook for UFOs.
[A strategy which seems to have backfired, if this is true.]

The only other detail I remember concerned a member of the U.S.
Congress who kept a self-styled psychic on his payroll.

Does this book ring any bells?  If you know the author or the title,
please *mail*  them to me as I only haphazardly read these newsgroups.
If I find the answer, I'll post it in a followup.  Thanks.

-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") [e-mail]
-- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
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From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 00:45:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) says:

>Greg Clewell writes: "...she just IS."
>
>Thank you, Greg, for understanding some things that are *beyond*
>the analytical mind.  You said it so well.
>
>Greg writes (in reference to Scott):"Why do you attack the
>goddess so relentlessly?"
>
>I would venture to guess because he is at odds with her in himself.
>He has a big job ahead to reconciliate the opposites within
>himself.
>
>Greg, I could feel your light hearted energy as you made your
>post.  Thanks much for the good and supportive energy.  I
>appreciate it.  :-)
>
>Kathy
>
>"Our Being is a brilliant pattern of energies: a spectrum of
>possibilities"  --Ngakpa Chogyam
>

You have failed to answer the most fundamental questions that Scott
gave you.

Like many who claim power and knowledge, when the rubber should meet
the road, you fail to produce proof of your powers.

Tell him what 5 books he has on his book shelf.  Tell him something
about himself that only he would know.

You can't because you are like the others in the field of the para-
normal and UFO investigators - you can't provide "tangible proof" of
your powers.

You are the same that strike down the name and the briefings of GOD
because that is also a belief system.  You even take time to strike
down anything to do with GOD since it is a manly written document.
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 00:33:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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[e-mail] (James J. Lippard) writes:
> "June 3, 1964--Gemini 4:  Jim McDivitt reported he photographed several
> strange objects, including a cylindrical object with arms sticking out

According to this version, it was June 1966 instead of 1964.

Narrator:
Gemini and Apollo astronaut James McDivitt says:

McDivitt:
[while in orbit above the Earth] "I happened to glance out one time
and there against the black sky was a white object. The geometry of
it was sort of like a beer can or a coke can with a pencil sticking
out of one of the round edges at about a 45 degree angle".

Narrator:
McDivitt was able to snap a few photos, but after turning them
over to NASA, the photographs disappeared.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 01:14:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 59

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Scott, no, you have not learned manners yet.  Sometimes
>even truth can be contradictory.  Reread the Ngakpa's
>section on being stern.
>
[ things removed ]
>
>Souls are equal regardless of sex.
>
>Kathy
>
[more things removed from this very spot]

I like the "Souls are equal..." part.

That sounds something like, "Every man is my master in that I may learn from
him...". I like that one too.

I have greatly enjoyed this written battle. It has provided a lot of
entertainment. Thats why I read this, by the way. Entertainment. Yup. That's
it.

On an intellectual level, I am disheartened by the fact that the
discussion did drop to personal attacks. Oh well. Cant have everything.

If I were a judge, and Im not, but if I were a judge here, mind you this
is strictly my opinion -- my opinion is not god's, OK? But if I were
to judge the outcome, I would say that Scott won. If Kathy had maintained
her cool in the face of the onslaught, she could have retained credibility.
The reader would be comfortable that she was self assured and well seated
in her position. At this point, I'd give the points to Scott for breaking
through what was a sterling defense. Kathy did a great job, but lost the
battle in the final seconds before the whistle.

So what does this mean?

Unfortunately, it means nothing. It means nothing because this is entertainment
and not a way-of-life. Kathy will go on being a New Ager, and Scott will go
on studying physics and mathematics. In the immortal words of Kurt Vonnegut,

"And so it goes."

Lucky for us the Ukranians are not selling arms to the New Agers and the
Physicists. Otherwise, we'd all wish we were in Croatia now.

So, anyone care to stop talking business and start talking
alien.visitors? Im up for it if you are.


Abientot.

Joe


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 22:17:06 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes:
>
>What about Astronaut McDivot who saw the cylinder and arm UFO out his window,
>photographed it extensively, told the world about this event on national
>television, only to say that NASA made the film 'disappear' ?

Yes, the famous McDivitt "tadpole UFO" (so-called because of its shape).
Jim Oberg has the details of this one, too, in his "UFOs and Outer
Space Mysteries."

This *was* a genuine UFO, sort of, because it was a satellite in earth
orbit, and its identity was not *absolutely* certain. Its position,
appearance, and orbit matches up pretty well with one of the Soviet
satellites (I forget which one). But, you guessed it, certain UFOlogists
offered proof positive certain that the satellite in question was just
a *little off* from the position of the object that McDivitt saw, so
he must have seen a "real" UFO. It all depends on which you think is
more likely: Martians in earth orbit, mimicking a Soviet satellite, or
somebody's calculation of the orbital position of a satellite, years
after the event, is a little bit off.

McDivitt, by the way, always said that the photo touted by UFOlogists
did NOT depict the object he saw. That, it seems, was a grossly
overexposed reflection of sunlight off a bolt near his window. What
he saw was too faint for the hand-held camera to pick up.
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 01:58:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>to judge the outcome, I would say that Scott won. If Kathy had maintained

    Gee. Don't I even get honorable mention? I was the one who
challenged her first and was met by her bedwetting response. :)

>So, anyone care to stop talking business and start talking
>alien.visitors? Im up for it if you are.

    That was what started the whole thread, Joe. I want to talk about
alien visitors. Kathy wanted to talk about channeling, crystals, auras,
and so on. So I just started a periodic reality check, as I do whenever this
group really starts going far out into the vacuum of spaced out minds.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;

"It is possible for one to have an open mind and still retain a mental screen
door to prevent the flies from getting in." -- Jason Wood
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!halcyon!gtenmc!gander
From: [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 22:12:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Redheaded Goddess) says:
>>
>>The scientists still have a lot to learn about integrating
>>both sides of the brains.
>      :Can
>Oh PUUUUHHHHLLLLLLEEEEEEEZZZZZZ...  Hofstaedter is a fantastic author,
>Feynman made nude paintings of striptease dancers, Jane
>Richardson is a fantastic artist, a mathematician friend of mine took best
>on the East Coast for her musical instrument, and the list could go on and
>on...  People like this are all soulless automata because they disagree with
>you, eh?  Wake up, There are more scientists who are artists or pursue things
>totally unrelated to the left brain than you'd ever believe.  I have
>to see a radical new ager contribute ANYTHING to science.  Must be a
>huge government conspiracy, eh?


Ever heard of Einstein, Edison, or Tesla?  All of them used altered states
of consciousness to gain much, if not all of their inspiration.  Ever hear
of Einstein's 'cat naps', or his dream about riding on a beam of light?
How about Edison's 'meditations', where he would 'nap' with steel ball
bearings in one hand, holding them above a metal pie plate.  When he got
too deep, the ball bearings would drop into the pie pan, waking him up.
And of course there is the great Tesla, who not only got his ideas during
altered states of consciousness (alpha level - halfway between sleeping and
wakefulness, the dreaming state), but did all of his experiements IN HIS
IMAGINATION.  Only when an experiment worked IN HIS MIND did he actually
build anything, and well over 90% of his experiements worked the first time.
Edison should have done this - I understand that he spent THOUSANDS of tries
trying to get the light bulb right.  If you are interested in learning how
to do this, take Silva Mind Control (8,000,000 graduates worldwide), or
some other similar program.  If you don't care to actually do your homework
and find out about things like this before criticizing, perhaps your
uninformed criticisms could remain private?

>>Kathy

>Scott

Gary


"Never try to teach a pig to sing -
  it's frustrating for you,
  and it just annoys the pig"

(maybe I should take my own advice!)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!halcyon!gtenmc!gander
From: [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 22:37:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>>Ryk Spoor writes:  "What else ise there but mind and body?"
>>When one transcends mind and body:  pure consciousness.  Soul.
>>Being.  Is-ness.

>    Sorry, static on the line here. Seems to me that consciousness is
>a manifestation of the mind. I said something that you can show EVIDENCE
>for. There is no evidence for the existence of a "soul" separate from
>the mind.

Ryk, what part of you perceives only a body and mind? Your body or your mind?
If your body, which part percieves this?  If your mind, then isn't that kind
of like a recursive dictionary definition: A - see B.  B - see A?  Ryk, there
really doesn't have to be evidence of a soul.  Nobody owes YOU any explanation
at all, except yourself, of course.  And you don't want one, or you would go
out into the world, learn about spiritual things, and then gain awareness of
your soul.  You would rather sit around and bitch and moan about someone
else's opinion that disagrees with your own.  If you are not knowledgeable
about an area, how can you possible comment on it with any intelligence at all?

Also, Ryk, are you happy with your life, the way that things are going for you?
It sounds like this is not the case, like you need something more in your life.
No, I am NOT religious, but living one's life without knowledge of a soul, a
higher self, God/Goddess/All That Is seems very empty to me.  Are you full
of life, Ryk?  Are you fulfilled as a person with your beliefs?  From your
criticism, it seems not, but maybe you truly are happy the way you are. I
hope so.

Kathy may have some good points, and you may or may not agree with them.
Is that OK with you?  It doesn't sound like it.  Personally I agree
with a lot of what Kathy has to say, although I don't agree with everything,
of course.  But I completely agree with her right to say it.  Did you see
"Dances With Wolves", by any chance?  There was a wonderful scene where
the wise Indian chief was holding a bull session to decide what to do about
the white man who came to live nearby.  Everyone who wanted to speak was
allowed to do so, and NO ONE was commented on/questioned/criticized.  It
really was a revelation to me, since criticism is one of societies biggest
problems, and I personally grew up with a LOT of it.  Ryk, you might learn
something from this scene.  Rent the movie and watch it, if you would.

Ryk and Kathy, do you enjoy beating each other up?  Perhaps you could
respond directly to each other, unless you think that it is that entertaining
to the rest of the newsgroup. Of course, it may be like the soap operas -
"Tune in next week for the exciting saga of Ryk and Kathy, etc...", with
the majority of the readers of this group tuning in just to read about you
two.  Nothing personal against either one of you, but are either of you
really growing as individuals by doing this?  Perhaps you should both
read the quote below, and stop trying to teach pigs to sing.
Rise above it, please.


>                    Sea Wasp
>                    (aka about 60 other names)

Gary


"Never try to teach a pig to sing -
  it's frustrating for you,
  and it just annoys the pig."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!halcyon!gtenmc!gander
From: [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 22:46:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
Lines: 36

Ryk,

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>>Ryk Spoor questions, "..whether the writer is leaving reality.."
>>That is the key point:  What is reality?  You think that which
>>you see here is the *only* reality?  Because you have not yet
>>to see others, does that mean they do not exist?

>    Not at all. But this IS the only reality that MATTERS, because
>it is the only one that can have direct effects on me. If you can
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ryk, for you this is definitely true.  This is your reality.  That is too
bad, because there is much outside this reality that can DEFINITELY help
you in this one.


>    But if these so-called other realities can't be used to produce
>effects in THIS reality, that I inhabit, then their existence becomes
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ryk, why don't you take Silva Mind Control, or some other similar course,
and start using other realities to change this one?  It's not difficult,
and LOTS of people have done it.  Would you like to do this, Ryk?  Silva
offers a money-back guarantee, so if you take the course and are not
satisfied, then nothing is lost, but a bit of your time, and you can
come back here and ream the create-your-own-reality'ers real good.
How about it, Ryk, are you up to it?  Or you can continue to say "The
world looks flat, I don't know about any evidence to the contrary, and
therefore it MUST be flat...". Up to you...

>                    Sea Wasp

Gary
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!halcyon!gtenmc!gander
From: [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 23:02:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
Lines: 18

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Greg writes (in reference to Scott):"Why do you attack the
>goddess so relentlessly?"
Good question - Scott is a very threatened, insecure person.  He is threatened
by women in general, and Goddess is obviously a threat, a woman with
threatening views, disagreeing views, and anything that disagrees with him
is a threat.  If he indeed is in some sort of teaching capacity, I would hate
to be in his class.  I'll bet that students learn real quick not to disagree
or offer an alternate opinion.  Scott, are you a father, by any chance?  Are
you this offensive with your children also?  Perhaps you should look at this
before having any children of your own, or becoming a father of any kind.
If you can't resolve this issue, perhaps a vasectomy is the best solution for
your problem.  Do you have any pets?  Animals are very sensitive to human
moods and feelings, and even animal don't always do what you want them to do.
Think about it, Scott.


Gary
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 18:32:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Marc MILANINI) writes:
>The "Ummits" are allegedly quite similar to us, the only difference being that
>they have a stain on their body. They live on a planet revolving around a star
>that is yet to be identified (it is much like the Sun, G6 class if my memory
>serves well), about 15 light years far.

I find it hard to believe that a star only 15 LY away hasn't been
identified yet.  But otherwise, that was a fascinating article.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  CLIPPING: Recent UFO sighting(s) in Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 18:37:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>Well, there is a reasonably sized airport in the area.  I have seen B-52s
>C-130s, various jet fighters, and Cobras flying in the area before.  Of course
>this doesn't explain the hovering.  However, if the C-130 were heading
>directly toward a witness, it could appear to be hovering.  I have seen
>this myself on numerous occasions.  Since I wasn't there, I simply don't
>know the details of the thing and I suspect we never will alas.
                                   -----------------------

Too true.  Unless of course MUFON or someone else happens to catch a repeat
performance of whatever it was -- although they could only prove *their*
sighting and not the originals, so there would *still* be doubt.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  abductions [was Re:  Did a little research on Zeta Ret.]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 20:29:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Larson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>There's one thing that bothers me about the argument that similarity of
>>details is evidence that something physical happened:  What if the
>>abduction experience is somehow encoded in the structure of our brains?
>
>are reports of groups of people seeing the same beings at the same
>time (i.e., they see the same scenario, not just the same faces).

I didn't know that.  In fact, I was going to throw Marian apparitions into
the same category as NDEs and abductions, and I know that at Medjugorje the
children have been reported as having simultaneous but independent
conversations with Mary.  But if there are accounts correlating in enough
detail (of either abductions or apparitions), I guess it blows the theory
that they're just altered states of consciousness.  (At least for some of
the accounts, anyway.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 05:50:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 104

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander) writes:
>Ryk, what part of you perceives only a body and mind? Your body or your mind?
>If your body, which part percieves this?  If your mind, then isn't that kind
>of like a recursive dictionary definition: A - see B.  B - see A?  Ryk, there
>really doesn't have to be evidence of a soul.  Nobody owes YOU any explanation

    The mind percieves things through the mechanism of the body. The mind
being a construct of patterns that cannot be directly ascribed to a simple
physical map of the brain, it can in that sense be called an "unmaterial"
part of the self. If that's what you want to call a soul, then fine. But
I don't see that as mystical. The mind-body dichotomy only exists if you
view it in a simplistic fashion. In actuality it's the interaction of
the body with the environment, through its initially hardwired responses,
that produces the mind. The mind is the computer program, so to speak, while
the body is the computer. It is not necessary for the computer to have a third
part to determine that it has a program -- the fact that it functions proves
that both exist and are functional.

>at all, except yourself, of course.  And you don't want one, or you would go
>out into the world, learn about spiritual things, and then gain awareness of
>your soul.  You would rather sit around and bitch and moan about someone
>else's opinion that disagrees with your own.  If you are not knowledgeable
>about an area, how can you possible comment on it with any intelligence at all?

    I've spoken with a wide variety of people on these subjects, including
ministers, three witches, a wizard (he calls himself that so don't blame me
for using the term), several new-age crystal believer types, and so on.
    Thus far none of them have been able to come up with any evidence
of a "soul" whatsoever. It's like any other religion, it's a matter of belief,
and by Occam's Razor I'd rather take the simpler explanation. Thus, instead
of three parts (body, mind, soul) I take body and mind, which satisfy all the
requirements.

>Also, Ryk, are you happy with your life, the way that things are going for you?
>It sounds like this is not the case, like you need something more in your life.
>No, I am NOT religious, but living one's life without knowledge of a soul, a
>higher self, God/Goddess/All That Is seems very empty to me.  Are you full
>of life, Ryk?  Are you fulfilled as a person with your beliefs?  From your
>criticism, it seems not, but maybe you truly are happy the way you are. I
>hope so.

    Seems to me that believing in something without evidence is a pretty
empty way to live. I mean, it implies that you NEED something that simply
ISN'T THERE just to justify your existence. I don't need that. I just AM,
and that's enough.

>Kathy may have some good points, and you may or may not agree with them.
>Is that OK with you?  It doesn't sound like it.  Personally I agree

    Sure, it's okay with me. But on a group entitled "alien visitors"
I like to try to give reality checks every so often to minimize the
fog and vapor, and hope that people will actually talk about aliens
instead of spirits and channeling and other nonsense like "vibrational
frequencies of air" and so on, taken straight out of 1950s space opera
or from 1890s spiritualism.

>of course.  But I completely agree with her right to say it.  Did you see

    I've never doubted her right to say it. I simply exercise my own
right to call it bull, and require that she give some evidence for the
ridiculous claims she makes.
    She can claim to have the power to move mountains, transmute
lead to gold with a glance, and raise the dead, but if she wants anyone
to believe her she has to provide EVIDENCE.

>"Dances With Wolves", by any chance?  There was a wonderful scene where
>the wise Indian chief was holding a bull session to decide what to do about
>the white man who came to live nearby.  Everyone who wanted to speak was
>allowed to do so, and NO ONE was commented on/questioned/criticized.  It
>really was a revelation to me, since criticism is one of societies biggest
>problems, and I personally grew up with a LOT of it.  Ryk, you might learn
>something from this scene.  Rent the movie and watch it, if you would.

    That's an old tradition. I've seen it in other societies before,
and it's got a lot to recommend it.
    But then, the question still remains as to who is right and who
isn't. If you're a relatavist, okay, then that question ceases to have
meaning. But if you're a believer in Reality, then it has to be resolved,
and that resolution means that SOMEONE is going to be criticized... if only
by the implicit criticism of having HIS suggestions not be implemented.

>Ryk and Kathy, do you enjoy beating each other up?  Perhaps you could
>respond directly to each other, unless you think that it is that entertaining
>to the rest of the newsgroup. Of course, it may be like the soap operas -
>"Tune in next week for the exciting saga of Ryk and Kathy, etc...", with
>the majority of the readers of this group tuning in just to read about you
>two.  Nothing personal against either one of you, but are either of you
>really growing as individuals by doing this?  Perhaps you should both
>read the quote below, and stop trying to teach pigs to sing.

    Please get the quote right -- and the attribution as well, eh?
"Never try to teach a pig to sing -- it wastes your time and annoys the
pig." -- Lazarus Long (Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love)

    No, I don't expect any personal growth from this, since I am not
expecting any evidence to be forthcoming. I consider these periodic
debates to simply be notices that there ARE some hard-headed thinkers out
here who are NOT crystal-channeling-spiritualist-NewAgers, and who might
actually want to talk about semi--realistic things...


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 05:24:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 64

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(gtenmc!gander) says:
>
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail]         d
>(Redheade
>Goddess) writes:
>>Greg writes (in reference to Scott):"Why do you attack the
>>goddess so relentlessly?"
>Good question - Scott is a very threatened, insecure person.  He is threatened
>by women in general, and Goddess is obviously a threat, a woman with
     :Uh yeah, tell that to my fiance the mathematician...

>threatening views, disagreeing views, and anything that disagrees with him
>is a threat.  If he indeed is in some sort of teaching capacity, I would hate
        :Kathy is not a threat, she is just a harmless fuzz brain who is used
         to having everyone worship her because she is female and frequents
         Usenet.  Ask any woman about what happens when they log onto IRC
         or Relay or posts to alt.personals and you will gain much wisdom
         my misguided child...
         If Kathy cannot stand any criticism of her views, then she should
         stick to posting them in talk.religion.newage where she is
         surrounded by her peons and sycophants who hope to get lucky.

>to be in his class.  I'll bet that students learn real quick not to disagree
>or offer an alternate opinion.  Scott, are you a father, by any chance?  Are
                :No, they quickly learn that I frequently answer their
                 questions with more questions and guide them toward the
                 right answer to a problem rather than spoonfeed it
                 to them on the excuse that I have a direct satellite
                 FTL radio link to Zeta Reticuli.  Wrong again...

>you this offensive with your children also?  Perhaps you should look at this
                                 :No kids... yet... Next insult...

>before having any children of your own, or becoming a father of any kind.
>If you can't resolve this issue, perhaps a vasectomy is the best solution for
>your problem.  Do you have any pets?  Animals are very sensitive to human
        :Aren't we in a bad mood today...

>moods and feelings, and even animal don't always do what you want them to do.
                                             :Would you like to see my pet
                                              Cobra?

>Think about it, Scott.

Wow, guess you showed me!  How dare an insolent misogynistic insecure hydrogen
bomb worshipping science teratoid like me dare refute the G O D D E S S!
Answer me this one question... How many more Kathy droogs are going to
pop in here to defend her honor?  Now if you think I'm going to spend hours
every day replying to each and every one of her incensed worshippers who
feel they must challenge me, you're W R O N G!  In fact, this is my last
message on the topic.  That's right, unlike Kathy, I really do shut up when
I say I will.  Flame me all you want if it will make you feel better.  You
will eat static in reply.  It's been fun but I have better things to do...
Scott to Deep Space Nine, one to beam up...  WHHHIIRRRRRRHUMMMMMM... >poof<

>Gary

Scott

"If you have a mythology in which the metaphor for the mystery is the father,
you are going to have a different set of signals from what you would have if
the metaphor for the wisdom and mystery of the world were the mother.  And
they are two perfectly good metaphors." - Joseph Campbell, _The Power of Myth_
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!sxw103
From: [e-mail] (S. Wukovitz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 07:08:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(gtenmc!gander) speaks knowingly:
>(hey!  maybe she'll put out if i defend her enough!  or at
>least maybe i get to find out if *all* of that hair is red...)
>Good question - Scott is a very threatened, insecure person.  He is threatened
>by women in general, and Goddess is obviously a threat, a woman with
OH yeah!!  Definitely...

>threatening views, disagreeing views, and anything that disagrees with him
>is a threat.  If he indeed is in some sort of teaching capacity, I would hate
>to be in his class.  I'll bet that students learn real quick not to disagree
Heard he failed them ALL.  (hee)

>or offer an alternate opinion.  Scott, are you a father, by any chance?  Are
>you this offensive with your children also?  Perhaps you should look at this
Yup he has 5 kids and his wife is barefoot and pregged *again*...

>If you can't resolve this issue, perhaps a vasectomy is the best solution for
Oh COME ON you KNOW you really meant CASTRATION...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wow this is fun...
My psychic powers tell me that you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT...hahaha whee

So anyway what *are* those 5 books?  I HATE it when people keep
secrets...

-Stephanie Wukovitz ([e-mail])
the redheaded skeptic
"Christ the Vampire wants YOU"
(*giggle* someone stop me from falling over... *hee*)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Shaffer
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Scranton UFOs / FAA Tapes!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 07:13:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 12

That was a good idea, but I wish one of us would've had it a little sooner.
If my memory serves, the first sighting was on the 8th or 9th, so those
tapes are probably gone, and I doubt there'd be time to get through the
paperwork etc. for the second sighting.

(Remember, I didn't even know there *was* more than one sighting until a few
days ago.)

--
Jim Shaffer - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!rutgers!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Intangible Forces (Undoubtedly, ETs use them)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 12:52:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 58

Perhaps the most interesting email I have received recently
came from someone on this newsgroup who told me that I will
never be able to "explain the intangible in words to the
gods of physics".

Some time back I studied shiatsu in a DoJo (means "Place of the
Way", I believe) and I remember the sensei telling us about
working with 'intangible forces'.

Phrases such as invisible light wave frequencies come from some
place within my being (or maybe I read it somewhere?  ...I do
not know) -- my conscious mind not fully understanding all
(and that is acceptable and all right with me)  Perhaps there will
be a moment in time when all will be understood what is represented
behind those words.  Intuition has its' movements and waves of
energy, and light its' many spectrums.

For the scientists and skeptics will probably never enter a DoJo
as part of their search, or bow down in humility in a sacred manner
to pay honor for all that a DoJo represents and symbolizes.

It is my thinking that a when many come back to a realization (
a realizing...bringing reality to earth) of their true essence,
they will have made openings in themselves that permit the creation/
connection of the light wave frequency body which will enable them
to penetrate the sphere of the 'intangible'.  Different worlds,
different realities, maybe, but in the end, all inter-connected at
some level of being.  When one enters/penetrates the intangible, he
may meet the angelic presences and ETs of higher luminosity light.

Analytical minds, I doubt, will ever achieve this connection/knowing/
awareness/realization as long as they stay in intellectual mindsets.
When they do not make the awareness, they will continue to scoff and
sneer and rant and rave and rail against others who no
longer fit their mould/and closures of their particular mindset.

We are not just mind, we are not just body...we are mindbody and much,
much more.  We are multi-dimensional beings.

Is there any one out there who has studied in a DoJo?  Just curious...

Kathy

"We cannot imagine that there can exist a reality that is not mental,
emotional, or physical.  We are bound by our beliefs about what can
be.  So we miss, we ignore our essence, our true nature, without
which we cannot really know what it is to be a genuine human
being."  --A. H. Almaas: "Essence: The Diamond Approach to Inner
Realization"

"...many will laugh at you and contradict you, and your words will
not serve to better those who are lacking in humility.  But you
should say them anyway...."  Dibitonto, Sherwood: "UFO Contact from
Angels in Starships (publisher:  Wendelle Stevens)

"..woman's secret...will always remain hidden from penetration of
masculine consciousness."  --Sallie Nichols: "Jung and Tarot, An
Archetypal Journey"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!apple!claris!szebra!spectrx!system
From: [e-mail] (Aaron Anderer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 06:29:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone] Silicon Valley, Ca
Lines: 25

[e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:

> Scott:
>
> Grow up.  Learn what it means to be a mn instead of an
> obnoxious little boy.
>
> Learn what it means to honor the divine feminine in woman.
>
> The more you spout off, the more stupid you sound.

I don't really think this belongs here, maybe on alt.dev.null or
talk.bizarre.  and anyways on the subject, don't cut on guys that way,
I am 17 years old, and personally I resent being called a little boy
(gotta stick up for the fellow man) but anyways, I feel that I'm a pretty
liberal guy and all, but when women go DEMANDING that we learn to honor and
worship the divine female, sheesh, give me a break, earn my respect first.

----
Disclaimer:  I can say whatever the hell I want, I own this system

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Anderer, System Operator                [e-mail]
SPECTROX SYSTEMS [phone]              szebra!spectrx!system
Weevilroni(TM) Food for real men who need regular bowel movements
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!ames!apple!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 16:07:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>
>I find it hard to believe that a star only 15 LY away hasn't been
>identified yet.  But otherwise, that was a fascinating article.

I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe this, as that star would be a bright,
*naked eye* object. Without doing the detailed calculation, at 4
light years, a solar-like star, Alpha Centauri, is magnitude 0.
At 10 parsecs (32.6 LYR), the sun would be mag 5, a faint star but
still visible to the naked eye. So at 15 LYR you're at something
like magnitude 2, roughly like the stars in the Big Dipper.

And scientists still haven't *noticed* this star yet, nooooooo!




--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
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From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 16:43:51 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes:

>Young? I assume that you are older than 2 days. It was on television 2 days
>ago, on the Fox Network I think. A re-run, with interviews of McDivot and
>Robert Lazar. (Incidently, I recorded it on VCR to show it to my son who
>was at work at the time.)

Well, sorry, but the unix1.tcd.ie is a Unix machine in Trinity College
Dublin, Ireland, and thankfully we don't get Fox TV (yeuch) here. Maybe
you'll send me a PAL version of the tape :-)

>I'm not claiming the story is true or false. All I'm saying is I saw
>the interview (being broadcast to millions of homes) of an American astronaut
>who told what he saw (a UFO) out the window of his spacecraft. He also said
>it is being covered up by NASA.

"The Time Tunnel" gets re-broadcast all the time too, as does "Unsolved
Mysteries" and "Nova" and other shows. That means nothing.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: EVIDENCE TYPES (was Flying S...Announcement)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 18:04:22 GMT
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  Hi Tom!

  I'm not sure how to quote in Netnews, but I'll have to find out
sometime.

  If you focus on a very distant goal, Tom, it can look very discouraging.
It's happened to me.  The key here is to break that goal up into many
little mini-goals that you can achieve one at a time.  It is important,
however, that each of those mini-goals have some degree of importance
to them, and therefore are satisfying each time you achieve them.

  You seem to find your work unfulfilling and a waste of your time.  It's
obvious now that you should begin changing your path one at a time,
then.  The easy part is laying out a plan, with phases, steps, substeps,
etc.  It might be harder doing some steps, but if you can get a measure
of satisfaction and pride from making each step, then you WILL find
find the energy to make the whole journey to the ultimate goal.  This
seems better than waiting till you reach the ultimate goal to reward
yourself.

  I don't have all the answers yet.  I have my goals to achieve, and
I have times when I feel exhausted or low on patience.  Currently,
however, I'm focused on learning how to enjoy life, so that I can
draw upon that energy to move along.  It seems to me that emotion
and self-expression is the key.  There are times I'm thinking that
the emotions that I'm feeling are of the limited scope that I
sometimes experience, and then suddenly I'm surprised at an awesome
burst of exhilirating emotion (when alone and playing with emotions)
which makes me redefine how rich emotions can be.  I DO know that at
this point, I had organized my life in a very 'safe' way, to the
point where it was ridiculously easy to feel very little emotion.
The price, however, of such a skill, is depression at times.

  It seems very clear to me that there is a lot of rich energy to be
found when one is very self-expressive .  I have been
watching 'popular' and well liked people, and they all have been
very expressive.  This shows very clearly when they are communicating
with others, which draws a lot of attention.  The ones who are
not expressive are usually sullen and quiet.  Try and see for
yourself, studying people's faces as they talk.  You can get a
general idea of the differences between expressive and not
so expressive people.

  So, lack of expression can lead to stress and tension (a sense of
uptightness).  The unreleased emotions bang around inside, making
it hard to relax.  Affirmation about oneself does require an
emotional support as well.

  I don't say it's easy to suddenly be expressive.  There's the fear
to face, the fear of looking utterly ridiculous when expressive, the
fear of emotions running away, the fear of hurting others when
overly emotional, etc... There's an answer to overcoming the fear, a
question I'm pondering now...

  Tyson
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^3: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 18:50:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Larson) writes:

>...  A conservative friend of mine gets emotionally upset any
>time I mention the possibility of alien visitors, just like it bothers
>him to be around people of different races/cultures.  ...

That's xenophobia and racism, not conservatism.
--
              [e-mail]
            "What'd you like, Normie?"
         "A reason to live.  Gimme another beer."
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 22:13:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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this is stupid.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 17:45:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>>to judge the outcome, I would say that Scott won. If Kathy had maintained
>
>    Gee. Don't I even get honorable mention? I was the one who
>challenged her first and was met by her bedwetting response. :)
>
>>So, anyone care to stop talking business and start talking
>>alien.visitors? Im up for it if you are.
>

Sorry, I came in at the middle and missed your discussion. Please accept
all appropriate credit where due.




>                                 Sea Wasp
>                                   /^\
>                                   ;;;

Sea Wasp's are the deadliest creatures, poison wise, on this planet. They
are tiny jellyfish from Australia. This is all I know about Sea Wasps. During
the WWII (Basil, whatever you do, dont mention the war.), people on Pacific
islands would get stung by these things and die. Also, there were sea snakes
called "Three Step Snakes" because you could get three steps after being
bit and then you would die. But these are much less poisonous to people
than Sea Wasps. Thank the gods, none of this has anything to do with
heavily marketed, for profit only religions.

The government is too ineffective to hide something of the magnitude of
massive intrusion of our ancestoral planetary homeland by beings from
elsewhere.

Just wanted to throw in my $0.25 (inflation).


Joe

--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CLIPPING: Scranton UFOs / FAA Tapes!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 01:39:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
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> Jim!  Have you been following the FAA discussions on ParaNet?

> Look -- here's our chance to GET FAA TRACKING TAPES before they erase them!  They're supposed to KEEP THE TAPES FOR 15 DAYS before
> bulking them -- so regardless of what they *say* about what it was, or wasn't, the tapes of the local air traffic should be extant.

> Whaddya think??

> Best,
> Clark

_______________________________


     GO JIM, GO !!!!   He's right ! And you don't have much time ! Get the bloody tape and run with it !

     This is our big chance to see and hear an actual event taking place. Somebody get a move on.

Kc
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: esta es otra prueba
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 23:17:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt
Lines: 1

alien.visitor
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: otra prueba ms
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 23:19:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt
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Netnews
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!netcomsv!cruzio!jethro
From: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Summary: Yes, we do create our own reality.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 19:26:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4153 talk.religion.newage:8794 sci.skeptic:19923

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> How can you say "experiencing life according to your wished", surely
> you believe people experience life which may or may not go according
> to their wishes.  Or do you believe that people who get
> murdered, tortured, robbed etc do so bacause they subconsiously
> really wish it to happen. In which case what happens when to people
> wish for opposite things for each other.
> I ask because I have heard that some groups do believe that we each make
> our own reality.

I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
of this.

A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
service to the other by playing out those beliefs.

``The beliefs you now focus your attention on will create the realities
that you live with, play with, best or are beaten by.'' -- Harry Palmer

--
======================================================================
Jeffery Tye                             cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us!jethro
Beyond Your Limits                                      [phone]
======================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 02:01:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 28 Jan 92 19:26:44 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:

   I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
   that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
   determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
   of this.

   A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
   experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
   them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
   hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
   the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
   the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
   each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
   service to the other by playing out those beliefs.

This is truly the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard!  Do you
really believe this drivel, or are you just spoutingit to make a quick
buck?  This line of reasoning is no different from:
-She was asking to be raped.
-The devil made me do it.
-Etc

Only people who have no belief in their own abilities subscribe to
such crap. This notion of pre-determinism is bunk.

Get a life.


--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail]) | The most detestable wickedness, the most
Field Robotics Center,          | horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries
Carnegie Mellon University      | that have afflicted the human race have had
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | their origin in this thing called
[phone]                  | revelation, or revealed religion. It has
                                | been the most dishonorable belief against
The opinions expressed are mine | the character of the Divinity, the most
and do not reflect the official | destructive to morality and the peace and
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  | happiness of man that ever was propagated
or any other organization.      | since man began to exist.  Thomas Paine
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 02:32:32 GMT
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Sounds like stuff that Dick Sutphen's been writing about for years.  What's this
"licensed" stuff??  What does that mean?
--
Ed Carp     [e-mail], [e-mail]    408/252-5947
                     [e-mail]    415/336-0797

UNIX  SysAdmin, Systems  Programming  Services,  Utilities
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU!curmi
From: [e-mail] (Jamie Paul Curmi)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Read This Scott The Great!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 03:18:15 GMT
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Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
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I don't know what it is that you have against Kathy (The Goddess).  She sounds
like she is very nice, and you sound like a total creep!

You pick on her because of her beliefs, yet you quote the BIBLE!  You call that
a book of truth?  Is your best come-back a number of outdated sexist remarks?

As for the books on your shelf, you probably have 5 copies of Playboy......
After all, no women would put up with your sexisty crap, so you could only
get your thrills from such magazines.

Scott The Obnoxious sounds much more appropriate.

Jamie

[e-mail]
*******************************************************************************
"I do not pretend to understand the universe.  It's a great deal bigger
 than I am."                          - Tom Stoppard.
*******************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (David Corner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 20:16:09 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>
>> How can you say "experiencing life according to your wished", surely
>> you believe people experience life which may or may not go according
>> to their wishes.  Or do you believe that people who get
>> murdered, tortured, robbed etc do so bacause they subconsiously
>> really wish it to happen. In which case what happens when to people
>> wish for opposite things for each other.
>> I ask because I have heard that some groups do believe that we each make
>> our own reality.
>
>I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
>that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
>determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
>of this.
>
>A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>service to the other by playing out those beliefs.

I am licensed to teach a course in moral theory.  I don't know what sense you
attach to the term "responsible" above (as in "each of us are fully responsible
for our experiences") but surely people who are murdered are not *morally*
responsible for their own murders.  Also, it is hard to see how someone can be
of service to me by mugging, raping, or murdering me.  If someone were to rob
me, would they deserve my thanks?  Typically people who perform a service are
owed gratitude, are they not?

If someone is murdered, it is their murderer who is responsible for their
murder, and no one else.  The same applies to rape (no matter how much society
tries to blame women for their own rapes) and any other crime.

I would grant that people have far more control over their own circumstances
than they usually dream they do.  I would even grant that there is some sense
in which a person may have a hand in everything that happens to them.  Still
further, I believe that people have control over what will happen to them in
the future and that their beliefs play a role in this-- who would deny such a
thing?  But I think you have gone too far to suggest that people are
responsible for everything that happens to them or that everyone is always of
service to others no matter what they do... these views seem morally absurd to
me.


--
David Corner                       **  Internet: [e-mail]
California Polytechnic State       **            [e-mail]
University, San Luis Obispo        **  Bitnet:   [e-mail]
*******************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Gerald Bryan (Denver))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: EVIDENCE TYPES (was Flying S...Announcement)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 04:43:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ?
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>  I don't have all the answers yet.

Be sure to let us know when you do   :)
--
"Believe what you want, but DON'T believe it here" -- Harry Crumb
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Aquarius Project
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 18:57:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael C. Wagner) writes:
>>Anyone have anymore information on the Aquarius project(the name could be
>>wrong).. Basically it is the goverments use of telepaths to track objects
>>such as subs, houses, people etc.. Recently I have heard rumors that the
>>"viewers" (A name given to these telepaths) were actually starting to
>>track UFO's(Unknow objects)... Since the goverment is so amazingly good

To the best of my knowledge, that particular Project Aquarius (as opposed
to the one that Moore, Cooper, et al talk about) exists only in Howard
Blum's book "Out There" (soon to be a movie.)

Have stories about it started to come from another source, or did Michael
Wagner hear about it in some roundabout way?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: McDivitt's sighting [was Reason for "Government Cover-ups"]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 19:03:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James J. Lippard) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes...
>>What about Astronaut McDivot who saw the cylinder and arm UFO out his window,
>>photographed it extensively, told the world about this event on national
>>television, only to say that NASA made the film 'disappear' ?
>
>James Oberg, criticizing the entire "astronaut UFO sighting" list
>from J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee's book _Edge of Reality_ in
>his article "Astronaut 'UFO' Sightings," The Skeptical Inquirer vol. 3,
>no. 1 (Fall 1978), p. 41 writes:

[explanation deleted]

I always thought it was something like that too, but if you look a few
articles down from Greg's first one, you'll see that McDivitt was
apparently interviewed on TV recently saying it was some sort of cover-up.
(Although the program was a re-run, it has to have been sometime in the
past few years because it was on the Fox network and Lazar was on the same
show.  Me, I missed it, because the local cable dis-service doesn't carry
any Fox channels and I don't watch "tabloid TV" anyway.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!axm113
From: [e-mail] (Abner Mintz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Read This Scott The Great!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 05:02:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 63

Er - sorry to interrupt, but perhaps a few points ...

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Jamie Paul Curmi) says:

>I don't know what it is that you have against Kathy (The Goddess).  She sounds
>like she is very nice, and you sound like a total creep!

Perhaps what he has against her is that a) she has insulted him repeatedly
(yes, I know he has returned the favor) and b) she seems to miss his main point
which is that evidence should be foremost in any discussion.  How can you
convince someone else without evidence?  The powers of self-delusion and
madness are such that anyone else's (or even one's own) "revelations" must be
taken with a grain of salt.  Tesla, etc. who have been mentioned earlier had
the great virtue of immediately testing their ideas.  Maybe (as the person said
in their note) most of the experiments worked, but not all.  Some failed,
because no series of guesses no matter how inspired are likely to be all
accurate, and if your premises are wrong, none will be accurate.

>You pick on her because of her beliefs, yet you quote the BIBLE!  You call
>that
>a book of truth?  Is your best come-back a number of outdated sexist remarks?

Actually, I suspect Scott took up using the bible as a means of fighting fire
with fire, a weapon of absurdity versus absurdity.  Unless he's had a radical
conversion since the last time I've talked with him, he's rather skeptical
about religion in general.  He's no more likely to put up with the radical
matriarcy (rulership by women) of the Goddess types then he is to put up with
the sexist claptrap of the fundamentalists (most other christians I have met
tend to be genuinely nice people and not at all sexist).

>As for the books on your shelf, you probably have 5 copies of Playboy......
>After all, no women would put up with your sexisty crap, so you could only
>get your thrills from such magazines.

Hmmmm ... gee, I guess I should tell his fiance that.  She's the one who put
me onto this entire thread (this isn't a newsgroup I normally read), as she
thinks the entire thing is hilarious.  Still, to risk sounding like a
critical outsider, I wonder what this really has to do with the supposed
purpose of the group: discussing alien visitors.  Flame-fests are fun, but
it's generally polite to take them into email, especially when the original
point has been so rehashed that no-one learns anything from the conversation.

>Scott The Obnoxious sounds much more appropriate.

Scott LeGrande.  LeGrande = "the great", so he calls himself Scott the great.
No more ridiculous than calling oneself a Goddess, or a fractal teddybear,
or anything else I've read around the net!

>Jamie

Don't bother with replying in the group - email it.  I don't have the time to
add another group to read.  Thanks!

Tizrak.

>[e-mail]
>******************************************************************************
>*
>"I do not pretend to understand the universe.  It's a great deal bigger
> than I am."                                     - Tom Stoppard.
>******************************************************************************
>*
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From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: McDivitt's sighting [was Reason for "Government Cover-ups"]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 06:02:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4162 sci.skeptic:19929

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (James J. Lippard) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Greg Hackney) writes...
>I always thought it was something like that too, but if you look a few
>articles down from Greg's first one, you'll see that McDivitt was
>apparently interviewed on TV recently saying it was some sort of cover-up.
>(Although the program was a re-run, it has to have been sometime in the
>past few years because it was on the Fox network and Lazar was on the same
>show.  Me, I missed it, because the local cable dis-service doesn't carry
>any Fox channels and I don't watch "tabloid TV" anyway.)

I recorded the show.  It is called "The UFO Report: Sightings".  He does
not charge that there was a government cover-up.  the actual statement is
that he snapped a few photos of the object and the film got lost.
You, the viewer, are left to make that connection.  There are many clever
cues like this in the show that appear during a second viewing.  Such things
as boldly stating in the beginning that the guests HAVE had encounters
with extraterresterials (Gee I thought that called them UFOs because they're
unidentified, silly me) are placed in to influence your conclusions.
  The best thing about this show is that there is a nice sample of UFO
videos.  That's about all I can recommend about it though.  Does anyone
know if they plan to do any more?

>--
> *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
> Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
> 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
> Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)

Scott
"Touch my Chakra, love my Chakra."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sxw103
From: [e-mail] (S. Wukovitz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Intangible Forces (Undoubtedly crap)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 04:52:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 82

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Rednecked Goddess) says:

>Way", I believe) and I remember the sensei telling us about
>working with 'intangible forces'.
Hm.  In aikido one uses "ki."  Our sensei said it was BS actually...
but a helpful concept in its place...

>place within my being (or maybe I read it somewhere?  ...I do
                 ^--(bowels)

>behind those words.  Intuition has its' movements and waves of
 ^--(hm?)                                ^--(hey!  like
                                        BOWEL movements...)

Intuition is a wonderful thing which has probably generated more
cool science and mathematics than you could imagine.  However,
you should really learn how to use possessive pronouns.  You did
it twice, so I assume that it wasn't just fast typing...so what
*did* you teach in that middle school?  Gym??

Oh, and by the way...whenever my intuition tells me something about
mathematics, you know what my first reaction is?

I *prove* the damn thing.  Gives one, like, that warm happy feeling
(kinda like an enema I suppose, or wetting your pants between ages
7 and 9).  Sometimes it's a really emotional experience (the proof,
that is, not the bodily functions)...to know that you have just
added something to mathematics, that you know something *for*
*certain*...creation/discovery is exhilarating.

>they will have made openings in themselves that permit the creation/
                     ^--(for colostomy bag)

>Analytical minds, I doubt, will ever achieve this connection/knowing/
>awareness/realization as long as they stay in intellectual mindsets.
Um gee you're right we ANALyticals just sit around having no fun.
Guess I have to stop dreaming lucidly, reading books about religion,
playing lots of instruments, speaking Esperanto, etc...do I get to
keep the rollerblades, or do analytical minds not skate, either?

>sneer and rant and rave and rail against others who no
>longer fit their mould/and closures of their particular mindset.
Was it a math course or a science course that you failed?  (Note:
"Physics for Poets" does not count here)

It would seem that much of the ranting, raving, and sneering (better
stop...your face might stay that way) has been emanating from *your*
keyboard because you are afraid of people who are asking for proof.
Skeptics, it would seem, no longer fit the mold/closures of *your*
particular mindset--they demand *more* than vigorous claims of vague
mystical power and knowledge...it seems to frighten you.  I think
many, if not most, skeptics would be delighted to see a demonstration
of real, honest-to-Gawd/Gawdess/Thingee/WhoKnowsWhat psychic powers
or the like.  So, c'mon, ok, name ONE of the five books...does that
help at all?

Oops!  They can't bring themselves to believe you without some
evidence!  Ooooh, they must be AFRAID OF THE **GODDESS**.  Or of
the TRUTH.  Personally I think it's a really stupid idea to claim
to have special powers in front of a skeptic...you *know* they're
gonna ask you to demonstrate them and you're just going to get
defensive (again and again...)

Um, actually until I started reading your posts I was under the
impression that pagans (at least net.pagans) are pretty neat people.
Really, you're acting like the stereotypical christian...my closest
female friend worships the goddess...she and I look at things in
different ways, but we respect each other's views...also she never
preaches at me, which helps, I'm sure.

>Is there any one out there who has studied in a DoJo?  Just curious...
Yo.  BTW, that's what most martial arts classes/clubs/etc. call
their meeting place or group...

>"..woman's secret...will always remain hidden from penetration of
Gee and I thought it was a deodorant!!  Or maybe it *is* PMS...
You can borrow my Midol anytime, sweetie...

-Stephanie Wukovitz
the redheaded skeptic
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: let's get serious
Summary: talk about alien visitations
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 11:36:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Distribution: usa
Organization: clearer than blir
Lines: 98

Let's get down to business.

During 4 years in Japan I rented many videos on the subject of UFOs.
These were packaged from TV specials shown in primetime. The Japanese
are very serious about UFOs, but given my knowledge of Japan and the
rip-offs prevalent their I always wonder if the viewers are just being
taken. (Like why is it that same TV celebrity always manages to catch
a UFO on her home video camera just in time for another trip through
the talk show circuit?)

After seeing lots of video I have become much more fascinated with
testimony from ex-military and ex-intelligence (sic) officers.
I have been out of the country so long that I would appreciate
being updated on the best and most comprehensive books concerning
UFOs (with plenty of the type of testimony mentioned above) that
are written by respected researchers in the field. No New Age BS
please!! If the book uses pseudo techno-jargon it's not for me.
I just want accounts and a piecing together of the pattern that
has emerged.

In Japan, the theory put forth goes like this:

1. UFOs crashed in New Mexico. One near Roswell one elsewhere.
   There was a survivor of the crash who died in captivity.
   The army got the UFO parts. (Interview with plenty of people
   who saw artifacts from the crash. Talk with the kid of a
   military guy in charge of the crash site who brought stuff
   home. Everyone is in agreement that the pieces were as light
   as balsa wood, but could not be broken. Some had strange
   writing on them.)
2. This crash and others was probably caused by high-powered
   radar that was commonly being used at the time that supposedly
   screwed up the navigational systems of the UFOs. The aliens
   quickly adjusted and the crashes ceased. I've also heard that
   there was a mid-air collision, but that's not the Japanese
   version.
3. This contact led to a successful planned contact in the early
   1960's with an alien in the desert.
4. A general understanding has developed between the US and one
   type of alien (btw, an official Canadian document concludes
   that a study of the phenomena shows that extraterrestials
   from at least 5 (7?) other star systems regularly visit the
   earth).
5. The type the US is in contact with is the little guys with
   big heads, large eyes, small nose and slit mouths. These
   ones can be on the aggressive side apparently. (A good
   partner for the US, I figure.)
6. The deal between the US and the aliens is that they can study
   US citizens with no reprisals if they give us technology.
   (Neat footage of a Japanese camera crew going to Groom Lake
   Nevada and coming away with video of an object that changes
   size and shape and appears to disappear momentarily only to
   reappear nearby; all common UFO phenomena.) I wanna go there
   but I hear the place has groupies nowadays (anyone been there?)
7. The US is kept informed of who is picked up and where. There
   is supposedly a list of 200,000 people that have been picked
   up. An interview with an ex-military intelligence officer
   tells that he has even seen pictures in some cases of mutilated
   humans when the aliens have gone too far.
8. The experiments are supposedly for genetic research. The claim
   is even made that some of the small type aliens are artificial
   beings (drones) genetically manufactured by another type. The
   experiments continue, they say.

Specific stories that interest me:

1. That people in the space shuttle once saw a UFO. (Audio tape
recorded by amateur radioist played on Japanese tv, voice of the
shuttle pilot compared to known recording from same mission that aired
on This Morning America, sounded like the same guy to me.)  The most
interesting thing to me was that as soon as it was seen the pilot
reported to ground control that he had spotted an "alien spacecraft".
The implication was that he was familiar with what he was seeing,
rather than calling it a bogey or a UFO.

2. That a British man took a photograph (blurry of course) of an alien
he encountered while hiking(?).

3. The triangular ships with lights on each corner being seen in Belgium.
Also some sightings in the US. This is interesting because the type
of ship didn't match types traditionally seen. A new 1992 model? Or
a new type of alien on vacation?

I know this is all old news on this newsgroup, but the postings here
obviously need to be more focused.

Anyone who once was, or can lead me to, high-level ex-military
personnel who have seen the evidence is invited to e-mail me at:

[e-mail]

Like I say. I'm beyond looking at interesting photos or videos
and listening to people describe what they saw. I'm more interested
in the eyewitnesses to the apparently massive federal documentation
of what is going on. I want to get an idea of the picture painted
by this documentation.

-- tvp
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Intangible Forces (Undoubtedly crap)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 12:30:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 18

S. Wuskowitz writes:  "In aikido one uses Ki".

Yes, and in China it is referred to as "Chi".
The Hindus call it "prana".
Christ called it "light".
Wilhlm Reich (if my memory serves me correctly) called it
  "orgonne energy"

I am a second-degree Reiki practitioner.  I am quite familiar
with the term "Ki".  Different words for the same thing/concept/
energy/vibration...etc. (whatever word your want to use).
I am not big on words any way to describe that which goes
beyond human vocabulary.

Kathy

Learn deeply of the Mind and its mystery for therein lies
the secretof immortality   --Hermes
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Read this Scott the Great!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 12:42:26 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 16

Abner Mintz writes: "How can you convince someone else
without evidence?"

That is the first fallacy.  Our work is to convince
OURSELVES and not others.  I think YOU have missedMY
point.

The burden of proof lies upon/within your own being/consciousness.

Kathy

"Your science must learn to recognize its limitations.  Matter cannot
be master over matter.  When man is awakened to the fact that true
knowledge comes in other ways as well, science will also be a
help on the chosen path."
  --Dibitonto/Sherwood/Stevens: "UFO Contact from Angels in Starships"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: EVIDENCE TYPES (was Flying S...Announcement)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 10:38:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>I'm not sure how to quote in Netnews, but I'll have to find out
>sometime.

Maybe you'll trouble yourself to post patronising irrelevancies like the
spiel you have come out with to "Tom" (whoever he is) somewhere else,
too. This crap belongs squarely in talk.religion.newage with all other
fluff of this kind. Go away.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 10:42:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:

>I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
>that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
>determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
>of this.

Yes? And...

>A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>service to the other by playing out those beliefs.

Aw come on, you don't seriously believe this, do you? Are you suggesting
that being murdered is some sort of "bad vibe" or something? And what do
you mean by creating the experience of murdering someone? What you are
talking is arrant nonsense, I'm afraid.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!moxie!hackney
From: [e-mail] (Greg Hackney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: McDivitt's sighting [was Reason for "Government Cover-ups"]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 13:45:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Home
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4169 sci.skeptic:19936

[e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
> I always thought it was something like that too, but if you look a few
> articles down from Greg's first one, you'll see that McDivitt was
> apparently interviewed on TV recently saying it was some sort of cover-up.
> (Although the program was a re-run, it has to have been sometime in the
> past few years because it was on the Fox network and Lazar was on the same
> show.

On the show, McDivitt looked to be in his late 50's. To me this would imply
that over the years he had yet to be convinced that the object was ever
successfully identified. He saw something, but can't prove it.

For some reason this reminds me of the story I heard of Admiral Bird (sp?)
who was flying solo over one of the magnetic poles, and reported that he
was suddenly seeing tropical forests and dinosaurs, but of course could
never prove it.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 20:54:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 31

From: [e-mail] (Mary Ross)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> It seems that an assumption has been made by a number of people
> that UFO sightings are not substantiated because of a lack of
> visible proof. I would like to share with you the reason for this
> as it was explained to me by a member of the Ashtar Command .

What's the Ashtar Command?

> suffice to say she is a volunarily incarnate being
> from another dimension who is here to help the earth in the coming
> transition).

transition? where're we going?

> According to 'my alien friend'

How often does he visit you? I want to know more about your close
encounters.

I truly believe in the existence of live in anothers planets , but
i think that they don't have to be different from us. I think that
we come from the same origin (parents) but in some time in the
past each "son" moved to each own planet where he grow his own
family. Much like the british, when moved to Australia and to the
U.S.A. The Americans are much like the Britishs.

The people that live in others planets are ordinary people , maybe
they also have some kind of "netnews" and they are discussing
the existence of life in others planets.
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 92 18:40:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (gtenmc!gander) writes:
....
> Ever heard of Einstein, Edison, or Tesla?  All of them used altered states
> of consciousness to gain much, if not all of their inspiration.  Ever hear
> of Einstein's 'cat naps', or his dream about riding on a beam of light?
> How about Edison's 'meditations', where he would 'nap' with steel ball
> bearings in one hand, holding them above a metal pie plate....

...quietly muttering "Strawberries...strawberries...."

Craig
-- "Democracy is the theory that  Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  the common people know what         Internet: [e-mail] --
--  they want, and deserve to get     Austin: [e-mail] --
--  it good and hard" - H. L. Mencken               VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 21:04:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>>
>>   I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
>>   that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
>>   determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
>>   of this.
>>
>>   A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>>   experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>>   them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>>   hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>>   the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>>   the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>>   each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>>   service to the other by playing out those beliefs.
>>
>This is truly the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard!  Do you
>really believe this drivel, or are you just spoutingit to make a quick
>buck?  This line of reasoning is no different from:
>-She was asking to be raped.
>-The devil made me do it.
>-Etc
>
>Only people who have no belief in their own abilities subscribe to
>such crap. This notion of pre-determinism is bunk.
>
>Get a life.

  Gerry, Do you realize you are basing your reply on an assumption on what
Jeff meant?

  Do you actually know what Jeff was really saying?

                                Tyson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  Reason for "Government Cover-ups" (was: Flying Serpents...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 18:47:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Hackney) writes:
>Narrator:
>Gemini and Apollo astronaut James McDivitt says:
>
>McDivitt:
>[while in orbit above the Earth] "I happened to glance out one time
>and there against the black sky was a white object. The geometry of
>it was sort of like a beer can or a coke can with a pencil sticking
>out of one of the round edges at about a 45 degree angle".
>
>Narrator:
>McDivitt was able to snap a few photos, but after turning them
>over to NASA, the photographs disappeared.

OK, I heard *that* story a long time ago.  So was this Fox program
interviewing McDivitt *in the present*, or showing footage of some old
interview?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!ultb!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!TJM8890
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: EVIDENCE TYPES (was Flying S...Announcement)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 03:45:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
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Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxa.isc.rit.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>I'm not sure how to quote in Netnews, but I'll have to find out
>>sometime.
>
>Maybe you'll trouble yourself to post patronising irrelevancies like the
>spiel you have come out with to "Tom" (whoever he is) somewhere else,
>too. This crap belongs squarely in talk.religion.newage with all other
>fluff of this kind. Go away.

  Hahahahahaha!  I love the way you talk, Brian....

  Anyways, I took a look at the top, and noticed it was being distributed to
alt.aliens.visitors and sci.skeptic as well.  This escaped my notice, and you
brought it to my attention.  Thanks.  I went into help and found /distribution
will change it.

  This way, my crap won't bother you as much as it seems to do.  Seeya, and
have a good life!

                            Tyson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!ames!apple!netcomsv!cruzio!jethro
From: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Avatar licensing (was Re: Creating reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 03:01:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:

> Sounds like stuff that Dick Sutphen's been writing about for years.  What's this
> "licensed" stuff??  What does that mean?

An Avatar Master is licensed to deliver the course by Star's Edge International.
The course is 8 days and includes many experiential exercise and processes to
get a person to the point where they know they create their own reality. The
processes are proprietary and so Star's Edge licenses each master to deliver the
course based on their ability and understanding of the material.

Many people have written about the nature of reality and it was certainly
something the great sages and masters taught. The written word merely points
to the experience. The Avatar course gets a person into *feeling* and
experiencing their ability to create reality. There is very little reading
in the course. The 8 days is a deep exploration into consciousness.

Namaste,

Jeffery

``All you ever needed was a method whereby your mind could be brought under
the control of your will. ... Now we understand that patterns are the result
of life passing through old belief systems -- and we possess the tool to
alter any belief system.'' -- Harry Palmer

--
======================================================================
Jeffery Tye                             cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us!jethro
Beyond Your Limits                                      [phone]
======================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!apple!netcomsv!cruzio!jethro
From: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Summary: The only victims are the ones you believe are victims.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 02:47:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>
>    A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>    experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>    them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>    hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>    the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>    the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>    each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>    service to the other by playing out those beliefs.
>
> This is truly the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard!  Do you
> really believe this drivel, or are you just spoutingit to make a quick
> buck?  This line of reasoning is no different from:
> -She was asking to be raped.
> -The devil made me do it.
> -Etc
>
> Only people who have no belief in their own abilities subscribe to
> such crap. This notion of pre-determinism is bunk.
>
> Get a life.

I have apparently pushed one of your buttons and fanned one of your
beliefs - that there are victims. The belief that victims exist is
one of the most limiting beliefs on the planet. My post was not about
pre-determination - it was about every persons ability to create the
experiences and events in their life based upon the beliefs they hold.

When we all come to the realization that no one is a victim, that there
are just experiences, and that we create our own reality - moment by
moment - then people will cease to give over their power to other
beings who want to control them. One cannot be victimized unless one
has a deep seated belief that they are a victim and is willing to play
that role for the other party.

Everyone has and uses the ability to create their own reality. Most
do it unconsciously and create against themselves. All of the crimes
we label as murder, rape, robbery, etc. are the result of self-limiting
beliefs that are held by the individual and by mass-consciousness. The
perpetrator and the so-called victim each carry self-limiting beliefs
about themselves, each other and the world.

I also believe that the person who is mudered cannot be killed. The body
may experience pain and die but who they really are is beyond form, time
and restriction. Each of us came into this life to experience something.
I also do not believe in Karma. That too is a self-limiting belief. Each
of us are unlimited beings, unique and separate, yet ONE. We create our
own reality.

All of this can be known if one is willing to dive into the nature
of reality and experience how consciousness creates in order to
experience itself existing as the creation. It is the judgment we
place on our experiences that gets us into trouble. Life just is
and is here to be enjoyed. When all of us take responsibility, 100%,
for our reality we will live in a world where people will appreciate
one another and no longer create against themselves.

Namaste,

Jeffery

--
======================================================================
Jeffery Tye                             cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us!jethro
Beyond Your Limits                                      [phone]
======================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pitt.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message to Scott the Obnoxious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 06:27:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:
>Sorry, I came in at the middle and missed your discussion. Please accept
>all appropriate credit where due.

    Thanks... :)

>>                                 Sea Wasp
>Sea Wasp's are the deadliest creatures, poison wise, on this planet. They
>are tiny jellyfish from Australia. This is all I know about Sea Wasps. During

    Now that's pretty neat... you're only the second person on the
net to recognize the origin of my name. (The other was a marine biologist...)

    Though I dunno if I'd call them TINY... _Chironex Fleckeri_ can get
to be half the size of a football (american)...


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 07:13:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Jeff's Universe!  Jeff's Universe!  Oh YEAH!
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Jeffery Tye) says:
>When we all come to the realization that no one is a victim, that there
>are just experiences, and that we create our own reality - moment by
>moment - then people will cease to give over their power to other
>beings who want to control them. One cannot be victimized unless one
>has a deep seated belief that they are a victim and is willing to play
>that role for the other party.
>
>Everyone has and uses the ability to create their own reality. Most
>do it unconsciously and create against themselves. All of the crimes
>we label as murder, rape, robbery, etc. are the result of self-limiting
>beliefs that are held by the individual and by mass-consciousness. The
>perpetrator and the so-called victim each carry self-limiting beliefs
>about themselves, each other and the world.

Does this mean if I deign to kill you, it is because you wish me to do
so and I am merely fulfilling your destiny?  If someone randomly fires
an AK-47 into a crowd and just happens to pulp your cranium, is this
the loving flow of destiny into the eternal whetstone of the universe?
If Jeffrey Daumer decides to make a lunch out of you, should you offer
to provide the grey poupon?  If you fall down the stairs and break your
neck, are you just finally getting your secret desires sated?  Were the
victims of the Holocaust, the Pol Pot, the slave trade, Stalinism,
Christopher Columbus, The Shah of Iran, the Black Plague, AIDS,
DWI, malaria, hurricanes, earthquakes, fires, tornadoes, tidal waves,
floods, apartheid, Tiananmen Square, The Cultural Revolution, The
Inquisition, Chernobyl, the Titanic, the Lusitania, Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, Pearl Harbor, the Blitz, smallpox, polio, measles and tuberculosis
a bunch of willing participants who felt complete when they died?  If a
convict escapes from prison, takes you hostage, and applies power tools
to your genitalia, did it happen because you long for this?  Note; I
am not judging you, I am merely inquiring for prurient reasons.  Why
not spread your wonderful wisdom to the loving people who would
adore hearing this?  Post these views to talk.rape with all due
haste...

>I also believe that the person who is mudered cannot be killed. The body
>may experience pain and die but who they really are is beyond form, time
>and restriction. Each of us came into this life to experience something.
>I also do not believe in Karma. That too is a self-limiting belief. Each
>of us are unlimited beings, unique and separate, yet ONE. We create our
>own reality.

I guess that will give you comfort as you slowly bleed to death from your
pureed pubis...

Scott

Remember, I am posting this because it is what YOU want me to do.  It's
YOUR reality.  YOU created me...  I think some of YOUR other creations
are going to be angry now that they know the real force behind me but
that must be what YOU want and in fact YOU must want me to remind YOU
of this and YOU must want me to now remind that YOU that YOU wanted me
to WANT to remind YOU and that YOU want me to WANT to remind YOU to
remind YOU to agree with everything I say because YOU made me type
this or are YOU just playing games with yourself?  Well YOU know the
answer to YOUR question so YOU must now want me to&*)#$*:&(#*(&)
>
<Core dump, System reset>
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating relity....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 11:26:21 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4179 talk.religion.newage:8833 sci.skeptic:19961

Jeffrey Tye writes:  "I also believe that the person who
is murdered cannot be killed.  The body may experience pain
and die but who they really are is beyond form, time and
restriction."

This brought to mind something I just read the other day in
a book entitled, "Jesus in the eyes of the Sufis" by Dr.
Javad Nurbakhsh and it is a tale told by 'Attar in the Elahi-nama
with 'minor variation', the following in Dr. Nurbakhsh's
book:

      The Virtue of Being Inoffensive

Just because you hold the sword,
  a man should not be killed --
    nothing is unremembered in God's eyes.

The swordblade was not fashioned for oppression
  or villainy, nor grapes
    for the wine-press harvested.

Jesus by the wayside saw a body slain,
  tossed aside; he touched his finger
    to his lips in wonder.

"Who did youkill," he asked, "for you so basely
  to be slain?  And who will kill
   the killer who killed you?"

Do not raise your hand to cause someone pain,
  lest you find a fist
    to bring you greater pain.

     --Naser Khosrow, Diwa, vol. I, p.519

----

Jeff, I agree with you that when we begin to real-ize our
own innate essence, truly we are beyond form, time, and
restriction.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!cunews!software.mitel.com!meier
From: [e-mail] (Rolf Meier)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <10600@augustus>
Date: 30 Jan 92 14:14:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:

>I have apparently pushed one of your buttons and fanned one of your
>beliefs - that there are victims. The belief that victims exist is

[other crap deleted]

>Everyone has and uses the ability to create their own reality. Most
>do it unconsciously and create against themselves. All of the crimes
>we label as murder, rape, robbery, etc. are the result of self-limiting

Sorry, but your entire posting is incorrect.

>and is here to be enjoyed. When all of us take responsibility, 100%,
>for our reality we will live in a world where people will appreciate
>one another and no longer create against themselves.

Obviously, you need to do a reality check of your own.

_________________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier                        Mitel Corporation
        "Everything You Know Is Wrong"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!cunews!software.mitel.com!meier
From: [e-mail] (Rolf Meier)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Avatar licensing (was Re: Creating reality)
Message-ID: <10601@augustus>
Date: 30 Jan 92 14:21:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:

>An Avatar Master is licensed to deliver the course by Star's Edge International

>The course is 8 days and includes many experiential exercise and processes to
>get a person to the point where they know they create their own reality. The
>processes are proprietary and so Star's Edge licenses each master to deliver th

>course based on their ability and understanding of the material.

As P.T. Barnum said,.......

_____________________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier                        Mitel Corporation
        "Everything You Know Is Wrong" (no, somebody else said that)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!batcomputer!reed!henson!milton!sumax!halcyon!gtenmc!gander
From: [e-mail] (gtenmc!gander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Intangible Forces (Undoubtedly crap)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 92 19:02:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
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In alt.alien.visitors you write:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Rednecked Goddess) says:

>>Way", I believe) and I remember the sensei telling us about
>>working with 'intangible forces'.
>Hm.  In aikido one uses "ki."  Our sensei said it was BS actually...
>but a helpful concept in its place...

I have studied aikido, and I have seen my sensei hold a man pinned to
the floor with no physical contact, using his ki flowing through the
man on the mat.  Perhaps your sensei should study with my sensei?
(mine is a Bhuddist priest also, and studied with O'sensei, if you
know who that is)  If you want more information on this, please
email me privately.  My point being, just because the earth looks
flat to you, does not mean it is so.  Please don't assume things
based on outward physical appearences only, not based on some authority
figure.  This is very unscientific.



>Oh, and by the way...whenever my intuition tells me something about
>mathematics, you know what my first reaction is?

If Einstein had believed that, we would still believe that solid
matter is really solid.  The same goes for Edison and Tesla - they
all used their intuitions to get their inspirations.  Einstein
was famous for his 'cat naps', and gained most, if not all of his
inspirations from them.  And his dream about riding on the beam
of light led him to his theory of relativity.  Tesla was by far
the greatest genius when it comes to using the imagination and
intuitions.  He not only would meditate (light, dream-like sleep
state), but would do all of his experiments IN HIS IMAGINATION.
Only after successful imaginitive experiments would he ever build
anything, and his success rate was over 90% on the first try.  Edison
would take 'cat naps', holding steel ball bearings in one hand over
a metal pie plate.  When his 'meditation' got too deep, the ball
bearings would release from his hand, hit the pie plate, and wake
him up.  Then he would do it again, until he got another idea.
It's too bad for him that he didn't use Tesla's approach - he
could have invented the light bulb in one try, instead of the
thousands that it took him.

What kind of scientist are you, to turn your back on sources of
information that you don't understand?


>>Analytical minds, I doubt, will ever achieve this connection/knowing/
>>awareness/realization as long as they stay in intellectual mindsets.
>Um gee you're right we ANALyticals just sit around having no fun.
>Guess I have to stop dreaming lucidly, reading books about religion,
>playing lots of instruments, speaking Esperanto, etc...do I get to
>keep the rollerblades, or do analytical minds not skate, either?

What are you CREATING with you life?  How does this make you happy?
You sound very unhappy. :-(


>evidence!  Ooooh, they must be AFRAID OF THE **GODDESS**.  Or of
>the TRUTH. ...

The truth is relative, and depends on the belief systems of the
observer.  The earth used to be flat, right?  Do you know that
there is scientific evidence proving that plants are psychic?
Check out Cleve Baxter, if you don't know this (I believe that
is his name - his is one of the formost world authorities in
dealing with polygraphs).  Not that I am hot on plants - just
thought of it as an example.  This being the case, then EVERY
biological experiment done with plants EVER has been corrupted,
due to the influence of the experimenter.  Think about it.


>-Stephanie Wukovitz

Stephanie, you are truly a vision of loveliness, and the entire
net is so aware of the joy and hapiness in your life.  It emanates
from you, like rays from the sun.  Good for you.


Gary
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gossip.pyramid.com!pyramid!voder!nsc!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Avatar licensing (was Re: Creating reality)
Message-ID: <8dYd02P=[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 18:17:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <10601@augustus>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
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In article <10601@augustus> [e-mail] (Rolf Meier) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>
>He said........ I'm wiser than you
>She said ......I'm more spiritual than you
>He said........ I'm smarter than you
>He said........ I'm more mystical than you
>He said........ I have a licence to teach you
>

 ENOUGH ALREADY! I logged on today with 23 messages on this board to read.
 Only 1 was UFO related. I think it is rude and immature for the rest of
 you to use this board to ego trip on. If you spiritual beings want to
 fight among your selves would you please do it on another board or better
 yet use email. For being so enlightened I think your posts show a great
 lack of respect for your fellow posters, which makes me think the bulk
 of you professing to be enlightened are probably not as wise as you
 seem to think. If you cared you'd take the hint and leave.

 I hope you can accept the reality I am trying to create for myself.

--
=========================================================================
  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
  "Tis true; theres magic in the web of it." [e-mail]
=========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 21:16:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:

>Does this mean if I deign to kill you, it is because you wish me to do
>so and I am merely fulfilling your destiny?  If someone randomly fires

Not exactly.  I merely set up the opportunity for that to happen for
some reason (presumably karmic).  If YOU do it, taht's YOUR choice.

>an AK-47 into a crowd and just happens to pulp your cranium, is this
>the loving flow of destiny into the eternal whetstone of the universe?

You see death the way you do because you preceive death as the end of
existence.  In fact, our 70 (or so) years on this planet, in this lifetime,
is only one of many existences, so what's the big deal?

[hilarious anecdotes deleted]

>Remember, I am posting this because it is what YOU want me to do.  It's
>YOUR reality.  YOU created me...  I think some of YOUR other creations

I must have a HELL of a sense of humor.  Scott the Great.  hahahahaha!!!
--
Ed Carp     [e-mail], [e-mail]    408/252-5947 (home)
                     [e-mail]    415/336-0797 (work)

UNIX  SysAdmin, Systems  Programming  Services,  Utilities
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!convex!constellation!uokmax!charlie
From: [e-mail] (Charlie J Church)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 20:54:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>
>> How can you say "experiencing life according to your wished", surely
>> you believe people experience life which may or may not go according
>> to their wishes.  Or do you believe that people who get
>> murdered, tortured, robbed etc do so bacause they subconsiously
>> really wish it to happen. In which case what happens when to people
>> wish for opposite things for each other.
>> I ask because I have heard that some groups do believe that we each make
>> our own reality.
>
>I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
>that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
>determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
>of this.
>
>A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>service to the other by playing out those beliefs.
`
If you believe the above then stand on your head and spit quarters and
I have swamp land in the panhandle of Texas for sale at 0.10 cents per
acre.



>
>``The beliefs you now focus your attention on will create the realities
>that you live with, play with, best or are beaten by.'' -- Harry Palmer
>
>--
>======================================================================
>Jeffery Tye                             cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us!jethro
>Beyond Your Limits                                      [phone]
>======================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 23:10:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4186 talk.religion.newage:8859 sci.skeptic:19987
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius


[e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>
>    A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>    experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>    them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>    hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>    the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>    the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>    each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>    service to the other by playing out those beliefs.
>
> This is truly the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard!  Do you
> really believe this drivel, or are you just spoutingit to make a quick
> buck?  This line of reasoning is no different from:
> -She was asking to be raped.
> -The devil made me do it.
> -Etc
>
> Only people who have no belief in their own abilities subscribe to
> such crap. This notion of pre-determinism is bunk.
>
> Get a life.

I agree with Gerry, and I guess that Jeffery will be the first to
admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
idoit.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I had pancake makeup
Rosemount Inc.                                |for brunch!
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 02:21:08 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4187 alt.conspiracy:11279 misc.headlines:19817 talk.religion.newage:8862
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    Last Tuesday evening, KSBW, Channel 8 TV, in Salinas, CA, reported
    that a dozen people saw several extraterrestrial spacecraft outside
    of Paso Robles, CA, towards the area of San Louis Obispo.  One of the
    craft landed and a couple of grey aliens got out and walked around,
    returned to their craft, and then flew off.

    Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?
    Extraterrestrials are here!  Why the coverup?  Why does the national
    news media have their heads in the sand?  We need to know the truth,
    NOW!

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!hartigan
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 03:51:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4188 talk.religion.newage:8863 sci.skeptic:19991



Jeffrey Tye writes:

> I have apparently pushed one of your buttons and fanned one of your
> beliefs - that there are victims. The belief that victims exist is
> one of the most limiting beliefs on the planet. My post was not about
> pre-determination - it was about every persons ability to create the
> experiences and events in their life based upon the beliefs they hold.



>
> When we all come to the realization that no one is a victim, that there
> are just experiences, and that we create our own reality - moment by
> moment - then people will cease to give over their power to other
> beings who want to control them. One cannot be victimized unless one
> has a deep seated belief that they are a victim and is willing to play
> that role for the other party.

Thought experiment: a young woman is trapped by a gang of hoods,
who decide to gang-rape her. What, according to your beliefs,
is she supposed to do?

>
> Everyone has and uses the ability to create their own reality. Most
> do it unconsciously and create against themselves. All of the crimes
> we label as murder, rape, robbery, etc. are the result of self-limiting
> beliefs that are held by the individual and by mass-consciousness.
> THe perpetrator and the so-called victim each carry self-limiting beliefs
> about themselves, each other and the world.

Imagine:  I am stopped in an alley by a knife-wielding man, who threatens
to kill me if I do not give him all my money. I look at the knife,
look at my tender skin, which dislikes heartily being cut by knives,
and say, "Sure! Here ya go!"

Question: Am I or am I not the victim of a robbery?

>
> I also believe that the person who is mudered cannot be killed. The body
> may experience pain and die but who they really are is beyond form, time
> and restriction. Each of us came into this life to experience something.

Speak for yourself, comrade.

> I also do not believe in Karma. That too is a self-limiting belief. Each
> of us are unlimited beings, unique and separate, yet ONE.

One WHAT?

> We create our own reality.

Did I create that guy with the knife? If the Bomb lands on my hometown
tomorrow, will I create that?  If Jeff Dahmer wants to skin me and
boil my skull for brunch, why would I create that??

I don't think I understand, boss.

>
> All of this can be known if one is willing to dive into the nature
> of reality and experience how consciousness creates in order to
> experience itself existing as the creation.

Dive into WHAT??? How do you know all this is true? I question your
knowledge of the true nature of "reality." But, I am willing to be
corrected....

It is the judgment we
> place on our experiences that gets us into trouble. Life just is
> and is here to be enjoyed.

Yeah, I bet the Jews in Auschwitz used to reflect happily on this every
morning.

> When all of us take responsibility, 100%,
> for our reality we will live in a world where people will appreciate
> one another and no longer create against themselves.

I didn't ask to be born, comrade. Did you?


Cheers,
Sean Hartigan
[e-mail]

"I am become a transparent eyeball..." Emerson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 06:03:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
says:
>Not exactly.  I merely set up the opportunity for that to happen for
>some reason (presumably karmic).  If YOU do it, taht's YOUR choice.

How can that be?  You created me...  Therefore all of my actions are ultimately
YOUR choice.  Even if you give me free will, it is ruled by the forces of YOUR
universe therefore everything that I do is ultimately an agent of YOUR will.
If YOU created reality, then no one else is to blame...

>You see death the way you do because you preceive death as the end of
>existence.  In fact, our 70 (or so) years on this planet, in this lifetime,
>is only one of many existences, so what's the big deal?

Hey if YOU wanted me to see it any differently, YOU could will me to do so.
Why are YOU arguing with an aspect of YOURself?  Is this what YOU do for
entertainment.  All of reality is YOUR masturbation?

>I must have a HELL of a sense of humor.  Scott the Great.  hahahahaha!!!

The bigger question is what do you have against that other creation of YOURS,
the redheaded goddess?  Why do YOU torment her with a universe that doesn't
agree with her views?

Scott

Ed Carp shot JFK, RFK and Martin Luther King, is solely responsible for
pestilence that has fallen upon his creations and is not a nice guy.
Let's give him the same heave ho we gave that Yahweh dude...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!samsung!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!doug.cae.wisc.edu!umn.edu!cs.umn.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!vjmurphy
From: [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 05:48:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 28
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4190 alt.conspiracy:11288 misc.headlines:19819 talk.religion.newage:8866

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
>    Last Tuesday evening, KSBW, Channel 8 TV, in Salinas, CA, reported
>    that a dozen people saw several extraterrestrial spacecraft outside
>    of Paso Robles, CA, towards the area of San Louis Obispo.  One of the
>    craft landed and a couple of grey aliens got out and walked around,
>    returned to their craft, and then flew off.

     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.

>
>    Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?
>    Extraterrestrials are here!  Why the coverup?  Why does the national
>    news media have their heads in the sand?  We need to know the truth,
>    NOW!
>
     Why wasn't it reported?  Maybe reporters actually have good sense
 and decided that wasting their careers of such tripe probably
 would not be in their best interest.  Or maybe the aliens are
 mind-controlling the reporters.  Maybe the reporters are aliens.
 oooooooooowwwweeeeeeeeeoooooooooooo

--
                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
"Technology is a way of organizing    \
the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  let's get serious
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 18:33:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 85

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>1. UFOs crashed in New Mexico. One near Roswell one elsewhere.
>   There was a survivor of the crash who died in captivity.
>   The army got the UFO parts. (Interview with plenty of people
>   who saw artifacts from the crash. Talk with the kid of a
>   military guy in charge of the crash site who brought stuff
>   home. Everyone is in agreement that the pieces were as light
>   as balsa wood, but could not be broken. Some had strange
>   writing on them.)

Get "UFO Crash At Roswell" by Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt.  It's the best
investigation of this that I've seen, and it just came out last year.

>3. This contact led to a successful planned contact in the early
>   1960's with an alien in the desert.
>4. A general understanding has developed between the US and one
>   type of alien (btw, an official Canadian document concludes
>   that a study of the phenomena shows that extraterrestials
>   from at least 5 (7?) other star systems regularly visit the
>   earth).
>5. The type the US is in contact with is the little guys with
>   big heads, large eyes, small nose and slit mouths. These
>   ones can be on the aggressive side apparently. (A good
>   partner for the US, I figure.)

This is all from Bill Cooper, John Lear, and assorted others.  I don't know
whether any of it is available in book form, but there are plenty of text
files going around about it.  I don't know if there are any *verifiable*
accounts -- after all, most of the sources want to remain anonymous.

If you want to read not-so-sensational but often credible accounts of
government cover-ups, get "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good.  It's a few
years old, but that's good because it means it misses most of the
sensationalistic stuff.  It covers up to about the time of the MJ-12
documents, and covers other countries too.  (Good also has a new book,
"Alien Liaisons", which I haven't read yet.  It's supposed to cover the
recent sensationalistic conspiracy theories.)

>6. The deal between the US and the aliens is that they can study
>   US citizens with no reprisals if they give us technology.
>   (Neat footage of a Japanese camera crew going to Groom Lake
>   Nevada and coming away with video of an object that changes
>   size and shape and appears to disappear momentarily only to
>   reappear nearby; all common UFO phenomena.) I wanna go there
>   but I hear the place has groupies nowadays (anyone been there?)

That would be Bob Lazar's story.  (The Groom Lake part, not the abduction
part.)  It generated a lot of TV coverage, and to this day I don't know if
anybody knows *for sure* what's going on there.  Some of the sightings are
probably advanced US aircraft, using high technology but nothing that
violates the generally-accepted laws of physics.  (Although one of Lazar's
descriptions of a saucer test sounds like one of Bill Moore's descriptions
of the Biefeld-Brown Effect saucers that Brown built.  But Brown's saucers
were all externally powered.  I don't know if you could build a
(conventional) power supply that would fit on one, and it probably couldn't
lift it anyway.)

>1. That people in the space shuttle once saw a UFO. (Audio tape
>recorded by amateur radioist played on Japanese tv, voice of the
>shuttle pilot compared to known recording from same mission that aired
>on This Morning America, sounded like the same guy to me.)  The most

Keep in mind that various ham radio clubs re-transmit the shuttle audio,
and it would be no big deal to pull a hoax on the same frequency as one of
their transmissions.

>3. The triangular ships with lights on each corner being seen in Belgium.
>Also some sightings in the US. This is interesting because the type
>of ship didn't match types traditionally seen. A new 1992 model? Or
>a new type of alien on vacation?

The model is new, but hardly '92 or even '91.  See "Night Seige: The Hudson
Valley UFO Sightings" by Hynek, Imbrogno, and Pratt for details going back
to the mid-'80s.

>I know this is all old news on this newsgroup, but the postings here
>obviously need to be more focused.

Absolutely.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!newstand.syr.edu!rodan.acs.syr.edu!lalight
From: [e-mail] (Leigh A Light)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Info on Govt Docs?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 07:14:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Lines: 14

Hello,

     I was wondering if anyone could help me.  For an assignment in my
Communications Law class I have to try to obtain some documents from the
Federal Govt, through the Freedom of Information Act.  Since I have always been
interested in U.F.O.'s since I was young and remembered hearing about Hanger 18
I thought about using this, for my assignment.
     So my question is does anybody know of these specific or the names or
numbers of any documents the government has on file pertaining to U.F.O.'s.

     Thank you in advance.

                              -Leigh

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Area 51, Facility S4?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 19:40:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 20

A friend of mine who doesn't have access to the .net asks

"...what can you find out about Area 51, Facility S4 in the
 Mojave desert. I know SETI is, literally, right around the
 corner from it but nobody's talking about what the other
 is for."

Also, my friend would be interested in any new data on
Hangar 21.

Anybody know anything (I've never heard of it)? If so,
please send me e-mail and I will summarize to the net.

Thanks!

Craig
-- "Democracy is the theory that  Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  the common people know what         Internet: [e-mail] --
--  they want, and deserve to get     Austin: [e-mail] --
--  it good and hard" - H. L. Mencken               VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!netcomsv!tim
From: [e-mail] (Tim Richardson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 08:07:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: techNET, San Jose, CA
Lines: 23
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
=In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
=>
=>    Last Tuesday evening, KSBW, Channel 8 TV, in Salinas, CA, reported
=>    that a dozen people saw several extraterrestrial spacecraft outside
=>    of Paso Robles, CA, towards the area of San Louis Obispo.  One of the
=>    craft landed and a couple of grey aliens got out and walked around,
=>    returned to their craft, and then flew off.
=
=     Why wasn't it reported?  Maybe reporters actually have good sense
= and decided that wasting their careers of such tripe probably
= would not be in their best interest.

Oh come on... reporters with "good sense"???? Have you ever watched
what's on TV these days that passes for news?
--
Tim Richardson
Technical Network Products, Inc.  "techNET" -- Hardware Design made easy :-)
email: [e-mail]   {apple, amdahl, claris}!netcom!tim
*******************************************************************************
    "Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security
     deserve neither security nor liberty".   ------   Benjamin Franklin
*******************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Cyrus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Read This Scott The Great!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 00:48:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA, USA
Lines: 17





> Kathy

> "Your science must learn to recognize its limitations.  Matter cannot
> be master over matter.  When man is awakened to the fact that true
> knowledge comes in other ways as well, science will also be a
> help on the chosen path."
  --Dibitonto/Sherwood/Stevens: "UFO Contact from Angels in Starships"
----------


 PLEASE, JUST SHUT UP ALREADY !!  Your both just waisting bandwidth.

 Kc
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!st193
From: [e-mail] (William J. Casperson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Fact or Fiction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 04:29:27 GMT
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 14


Is this fact or fiction:

Recently a man in California caught on video two F-16's being swallowed by what appeared to be a UFO.  The man is currently selling the video (Or has sold) to television stations around the world.  Apparently Unsolved Mystries has purchased the video -- ??

Also, I need to know this:

What government agenices are currently investigating UFO crashes etc.  What is the agency called that keeps track of all the abductions.

Has anyone heard of the FEMA cover-up?  This too would also be a big help.

BTW, I think this is a great forum for discussion, but, too bad everything one says is being monitored by dozens of federal agencies.  Esp. on this newsgroup.

ALSO, Scott and the Red-head, take your discussion else where -- I'm getting tierd of reading the BS that is being sent out.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: To Scott and Kathy: Enough Already!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 14:59:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 11
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

Scott and Kathy:

Wanna settle this once and for all?  Here's how you can do this:

                Take twenty paces, turn, and fire.

You two have to supply your own Turkish dueling pistols and seconds
to hold your coats.  Good luck to BOTH of you...and I mean BOTH.

                                             T.R. Stone
                                             University of Nebraska-Omaha
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!news.unomaha.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Vallee's book "Confrontations"..Anyone here read it?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 15:14:26 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 15
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

Hello, Chaps!

   I thought it would be a nice change of pace from the "War of the Words"
currently being carried on by Kathy and Scott by asking the friendly folks
of alt.alien.visitors if any of you have read Jaques Vallee's 1990 book
"Confrontations", and if you have, what did you think of it?  I thought
it was rather interesting, especially the part about the "chupas"---the
flying icebox-like things that have supposedly been zapping people in
South America---mentioned in the 'Lethal Impact' chapter.

                                         T.R. Stone
                                         University of Nebraska-Omaha
                                         Home of the Toughest Organic
                                         Chem Instructors Anywhere in
                                         the Galaxy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!jaguar.uofs.edu!ccf1
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Scranton UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jan 92 20:49:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Scranton
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: jaguar.ucs.uofs.edu


    I have seen the video tape they ran on the local news here,
(WBRE) and I was not very impressed.  The object could have been anything.
Could someone please give the dates for these events so that I
could head down to the local library and see what the papers have to say.



    Thanks in advance...          -Jetto-

                                      [e-mail]


Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zazen!psl.wisc.edu!gorski
From: [e-mail] (Tom Gorski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 18:46:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Wisconsin Physical Sciences Lab
Lines: 52
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>>
>>    Last Tuesday evening, KSBW, Channel 8 TV, in Salinas, CA, reported
>>    that a dozen people saw several extraterrestrial spacecraft outside
>>    of Paso Robles, CA, towards the area of San Louis Obispo.  One of the
>>    craft landed and a couple of grey aliens got out and walked around,
>>    returned to their craft, and then flew off.
>
>     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
>  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not necessarily.  The aliens might have had Freem Blasters or
Transmogrifier Guns, you know.

>>
>>    Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?
>>    Extraterrestrials are here!  Why the coverup?  Why does the national
>>    news media have their heads in the sand?  We need to know the truth,
>>    NOW!
>>
>     Why wasn't it reported?  Maybe reporters actually have good sense
> and decided that wasting their careers of such tripe probably
> would not be in their best interest.  Or maybe the aliens are
> mind-controlling the reporters.  Maybe the reporters are aliens.
> oooooooooowwwweeeeeeeeeoooooooooooo
>
>--
Wait a minute.  Wasn't there a B-grade movie not too long ago
about some Aliens coming to Earth, and setting up some kind of
weird transmitter, that sent out a strange beam which made the
aliens look human to all of us unwitting Earthlings?  They disguised
the transmitter as a TV tower, and the whole TV station was run
by aliens.  It was their command post.  As I recall, their whole sneaky
plan began to unravel when clever Earthling invented some funky eyeshades
that foiled their beam.

Did you ever notice how these things are always set in California, in places
like...like...like Salinas!

Iiiiiiieeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeee!

The aliens are coming to shoot a B-grade movie here!!!

>                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
>"Technology is a way of organizing    \
>the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
>have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \

--Tom Gorski
"...just bein a 'pill'!!!"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 16:02:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 5
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4201 alt.conspiracy:11323 misc.headlines:19831 talk.religion.newage:8877

David asks
>Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?

My understanding is the treaty our govt. has with them includes nondisclosure.
DS
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 18:13:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
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Please keep this out of alt.alien.visitors.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Summary: It's just your belief.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 92 19:52:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>
> I agree with Gerry, and I guess that Jeffery will be the first to
> admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
> idoit.

What evidence do you have to support your belief? Or is it just a belief?
Your statement is another example of limiting beliefs - "If I believe
it to be so then everyone else must believe it to be so." This happens
especially when some closely held belief is brushed up against.

I'll look at your statement another way though ....

> admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
> idoit.
  ^^^^^ (let's have some fun with spelling ...)

That's right, I-DO-IT. I do it all. I create my own reality. So, yes
I am a raving I-DO-IT. Thank you ;-)

Namaste,

Jeffery

--
======================================================================
Jeffery Tye                             cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us!jethro
Beyond Your Limits                                      [phone]
======================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 05:53:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
>experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
>them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
>hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
>the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
>the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
>each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
>service to the other by playing out those beliefs.

Let's see now, that means that if I board an airplane, the airplane is hijacked
to some destination (say, Missouri) that I knew nothing about, I'm forced, at
gunpoint, to enter the terminal at the destination, and then the terminal
collapses in an earthquake (which is very rare in that area), that it's my
unconscious beliefs that caused me to die in an earthquake?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 02:37:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>>
>> I agree with Gerry, and I guess that Jeffery will be the first to
>> admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
>> idoit.
>
>What evidence do you have to support your belief? Or is it just a belief?
>Your statement is another example of limiting beliefs - "If I believe
>it to be so then everyone else must believe it to be so." This happens
>especially when some closely held belief is brushed up against.

Well, as to his belief that we all think you're a raving idiot, well, I'm
afraid that my thoughts on the subject would tend to support his belief.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!oucsboss!vax.muskingum.edu!jk_sims
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 03:08:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Muskingum College
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4206 talk.religion.newage:8885 sci.skeptic:20021

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>
>> How can you say "experiencing life according to your wished", surely
>> you believe people experience life which may or may not go according
>> to their wishes.  Or do you believe that people who get
>> murdered, tortured, robbed etc do so bacause they subconsiously
>> really wish it to happen. In which case what happens when to people
>> wish for opposite things for each other.
>> I ask because I have heard that some groups do believe that we each make
>> our own reality.
>
> I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
> that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
> determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
> of this.
>
> A person who is robbed or murdered may not consciously choose that
> experience (who would? :-) but may hold hidden beliefs which cause
> them to attract those type of experiences. A murderer would also
> hold beliefs that they may not be aware of which cause them to create
> the experience of murdering someone. The murder is a co-creation of
> the the person being murdered and the murderer. What beliefs would
> each person hold in order to create the event?  Each is being of
> service to the other by playing out those beliefs.
    Then I ask this question,

What belief could a 3 month old baby hold that would bring a person to molest
and murder. What belief could a six year old child have that would lead to
their kidnapping and murder. the list goes on...

    I personally find it very hard (if not impossible to believe that it is
our belifs which create the events that affect (effect?) us. No flames intended
but I believe that yes our beliefs affect our actions and yes sometimes bring
certain events to happen but to be realistic "there's a whole lot more to life
than" just that.

---Jim Sims
[e-mail]
---Please no flames.
--- Got better things to do than read flames. (:-))
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 03:53:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4207 talk.religion.newage:8888 sci.skeptic:20025

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Charlie J Church) says:
>`
>If you believe the above then stand on your head and spit quarters and
>I have swamp land in the panhandle of Texas for sale at 0.10 cents per
>acre.
AUUGGGHHH   PTTTTFFFF!!!     AUUUGGHHHH    PTTTTTFFFFF!!!!
I'll take 5 acres, thank you.  What the hell, it might have oil under it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kirtland AFB
Message-ID: <1992Feb2.184136.4041@anasaz>
Date: 2 Feb 92 18:41:36 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 17

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
]    Since Kirtland Air Force Base is in New Mexico, I see no reason
]for it to have a Minuteman missle launch center.  This reminds
]me of the silly rumors about the tunnel system at the University
]of New Mexico housing the frozen bodies of aliens.  UNM also
]supposedly houses a nuclear fallout shelter and underground lab
]for scientists at Los Alamos and Sandia Labs.
Gee, when I was a kid and living on the UNM campus (Vassar Dr), I used
to play in those tunnels. Only critters I ever saw were rats.


--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
 - - Support ALL ...erk  glugh   mmpph.... Memory fault (core dumped)
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From: [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kirtland AFB
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 20:21:54 GMT
References: <1992Feb2.184136.4041@anasaz>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 23

In article <1992Feb2.184136.4041@anasaz> john@anasaz (John Moore) writes:
>Keywords:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
>]    Since Kirtland Air Force Base is in New Mexico, I see no reason
>]for it to have a Minuteman missle launch center.  This reminds
>]me of the silly rumors about the tunnel system at the University
>]of New Mexico housing the frozen bodies of aliens.  UNM also
>]supposedly houses a nuclear fallout shelter and underground lab
>]for scientists at Los Alamos and Sandia Labs.

>Gee, when I was a kid and living on the UNM campus (Vassar Dr), I used
>to play in those tunnels. Only critters I ever saw were rats.
>
>

    AAARRGGHH! Rats from Space....

--
                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
"Technology is a way of organizing    \
the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ulowell!swlvx2!rayssd!anomaly!plankton.sbs.com!mpd
From: [e-mail] (Michael P. Deignan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 14:55:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Small Business Systems, Incorporated, Esmond, RI  02917
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[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

>    Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?
>    Extraterrestrials are here!  Why the coverup?  Why does the national
>    news media have their heads in the sand?

Because it was determined that the "eyewitnesses" were suffering from a
condition known as a "bad trip".

MD
--
--  Michael P. Deignan                      /
--  Domain: [e-mail]            /   I'm not a bigot,
--    UUCP: ...!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd  /    I hate everyone.
-- Telebit: [phone]              /
Path: ns-mx!uunet!dg-rtp!psinntp!rpi!uwm.edu!wupost!zazen!psl.wisc.edu!gorski
From: [e-mail] (Tom Gorski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 02:59:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Wisconsin Physical Sciences Lab
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Carlos Dragonslayer Butler) writes:
>In a previous episode on misc.headlines,
>[e-mail] (Tom Gorski) drops complete science:
>
>>Wait a minute.  Wasn't there a B-grade movie not too long ago
>>about some Aliens coming to Earth, and setting up some kind of
>>weird transmitter, that sent out a strange beam which made the
>>aliens look human to all of us unwitting Earthlings?  They disguised
>>the transmitter as a TV tower, and the whole TV station was run
>>by aliens.  It was their command post.  As I recall, their whole sneaky
>>plan began to unravel when clever Earthling invented some funky eyeshades
>>that foiled their beam.
>
>    I think the movie was "They Live," featuring Rowdy Rowdy
>Piper of WWF fame :)

Yes!  Yes!  That's it!  That's the one!
>
>--
>             Carlos Dragonslayer Butler
> [e-mail]                  Chicago, Illinois
>[phone] Home            [phone] Pager
>   "People often condescend what they fail to comprehend...

Okay, everybody, say it with me, altogether now:

        Theeeeeeeyyyyyyy  Lllllliiiiiiiiiiive!

Save us Rowdy!  Save us from the paranoids!  :-)

--Tom Gorski
Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!cynic!arkham!jaguar
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Reimer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 09:54:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Chez Cthulhu [phone]  "Caterers to the Elder Gods"
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[e-mail] (Charlie J Church) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jef
> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail].u
> >>
> >> How can you say "experiencing life according to your wished", surely
> >> you believe people experience life which may or may not go according
> >> to their wishes.  Or do you believe that people who get
> >> murdered, tortured, robbed etc do so bacause they subconsiously
> >> really wish it to happen. In which case what happens when to people
> >> wish for opposite things for each other.
> >> I ask because I have heard that some groups do believe that we each make
> >> our own reality.
> >
> >I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
> >that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
> >determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
> >of this.

I once played a game called Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar.  It was a lot more
fun than listening to these silly beliefs.

Then there was the terminal emulation AVATAR.. it wasn't quite as much fun...

    /\     FUSCHAL: THE PROMISED LAND. Where those who have faith shall wear
>==/  \==> hats of great majesty, yea, though they be made of cardboard and
  /____\   have humourous arrows through them. (Red Dwarf)
                     .----------------------------------. Sunny Vancouver BC
Jeremy Reimer, aka   [ => [e-mail] <= ] CANADA, where it's
The Jaguar! The Car, `----------------------------------' fun, fun, fun...
the Cat, the Lunatic  George: What time is it?            ^^^  ^^^  ^^^
--------------------  Edmund: Three o'clock in the afternoon, Your Highness.
PININ FOR THE FJORDS  George: Oh thank GOD for that I thought I'd overslept!
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Ballantyne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Creating reality (was Re: EVIDENCE TYPES ....)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 06:03:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Scott Ballantyne)
Organization: ScotSoft Research
Lines: 26
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 28 Jan 92 19:26:44 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:

   I am licensed to teach a belief management course called Avatar. It teaches
   that each of us are fully responsible for our experiences.  Our beliefs
   determine our experience. The course gives you an experiential clarity
   of this.

Well, Jeffrey Tye is back I see, but not offering firewalking classes,
this time he's a licensed belief management course.

So Jeff, tell me, I've been dying to know:

Why did you back out of your offer to have a skeptic (Jim Louck, as I
recall) come up and examine your firewalking course? Hmm?  We were all
really disappointed, especially when Jim reported that you also
decided to charge him 50 bucks (instead of the offer of a free
firewalk you had previously made to him).

Is it belief management that allows you to live with this?

Breathlessly awaiting enlightenment,
I remain
sdb
---
{[e-mail] | hotmomma![e-mail] | uunet!hotmomma!sdb}
My avatar wrote this disclaimer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 19:46:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:

>> I agree with Gerry, and I guess that Jeffery will be the first to
>> admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
>> idoit.

>What evidence do you have to support your belief? Or is it just a belief?
>Your statement is another example of limiting beliefs - "If I believe
>it to be so then everyone else must believe it to be so." This happens
>especially when some closely held belief is brushed up against.

What evidence do you have to support your own beliefs? For now, I'll go
on gut instinct, and call you an idiot too.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CLIPPING: Scranton UFOs / FAA Tapes!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 10:14:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 26

In a message to Clark Matthews <27 Jan 92 00:13> Jim Shaffer wrote:

 JS> That was a good idea, but I wish one of us would've had it a
 JS> little sooner. If my memory serves, the first sighting was on the
 JS> 8th or 9th, so those tapes are probably gone, and I doubt there'd
 JS> be time to get through the paperwork etc. for the second sighting.

 JS> (Remember, I didn't even know there *was* more than one sighting
 JS> until a few days ago.)

Hi Jim!

Well, let's both keep this possibility in mind for future sightings, shall we?  Hopefully the others on this net will do likewise.

The idea of the FAA denying UFO echos on their radar and then blithely bulk erasing their tapes in two weeks really gets my dander up.  Assuming they actually *do* erase such tapes, which I highly doubt.

Reminds me of Jacques Vallee's numbing experience as a boy-astronomer, doesn't it?  In his first job out of college, he saw his superiors examine tapes that showed a UFO.  They erased them as fast as they could.  Vive la France!

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 21:29:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
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Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius

[e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
: >
: > I agree with Gerry, and I guess that Jeffery will be the first to
: > admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
: > idoit.
:
[...]
:
: I'll look at your statement another way though ....
:
: > admit that it has to be his own fault that we all think he is a raving
: > idoit.
:   ^^^^^ (let's have some fun with spelling ...)
:
: That's right, I-DO-IT. I do it all. I create my own reality. So, yes
: I am a raving I-DO-IT. Thank you ;-)
:

touche'  :-)

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Is this an out-take
Rosemount Inc.                                |from the ``BRADY BUNCH''?
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!netcomsv!hotcity!kirkm
From: [e-mail] (Kirk Marcroft)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: WELCOME
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 09:15:48 GMT
Organization: BBS
Lines: 3


                           Welcome to Earth
                             NOW GO HOME!
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!covpoly!cch.coventry.ac.uk!apf042
From: [e-mail] (ozzy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 11:39:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Owner)
Organization: AbUsE-nEt,CoV pOlY
Lines: 34
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4218 alt.conspiracy:11389 misc.headlines:19847 talk.religion.newage:8924
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysh

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Gorski) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Carlos Dragonslayer Butler) writes:
>>In a previous episode on misc.headlines,
>>[e-mail] (Tom Gorski) drops complete science:
>>
>>>Wait a minute.  Wasn't there a B-grade movie not too long ago
>>>about some Aliens coming to Earth, and setting up some kind of
>>>weird transmitter, that sent out a strange beam which made the
>>>aliens look human to all of us unwitting Earthlings?  They disguised
>>>the transmitter as a TV tower, and the whole TV station was run
>>>by aliens.  It was their command post.  As I recall, their whole sneaky
>>>plan began to unravel when clever Earthling invented some funky eyeshades
>>>that foiled their beam.
>>
>>    I think the movie was "They Live," featuring Rowdy Rowdy
>>Piper of WWF fame :)
>
>Yes!  Yes!  That's it!  That's the one!
>>

>        Theeeeeeeyyyyyyy  Lllllliiiiiiiiiiive!

wasnt it roddy who said in they live :
         "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum....and Im all out of
      bubblegum."

it was indeed a weird film


--
*****************************************************************************
**NAME : O.CONWAY    ** JANET: [e-mail]                        **
**ALIAS: OZZY        ** INET: [e-mail]      **
*****************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!decwrl!pa.dec.com!jrdzzz.jrd.dec.com!tkou02.enet.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook
From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 14:32:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4219 alt.conspiracy:11396 misc.headlines:19850 talk.religion.newage:8927


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes...
>
>     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
>  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.

    I seriously doubt anyone would try this if they were witnessing
    a landing. Also, if you did enough homework about this subject
    you would know that any such attempts would be useless.

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Peter Cook                        Quoth the Raven, "Eat my
Digital Equipment Corporation                shorts, man!"
200 Forest street
Marlboro, MA. 01752        "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
508-467-6936            welcome to the 90's where the government's
Mystic Powers infoline:        your mother!" - Scatterbrain
508-562-9516
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.bbn.com!mips2!bubba!pavelski
From: [e-mail] (Frank A. Pavelski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 17:43:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Manager)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Bull HN, Worldwide Information Systems, Billerica, Mass., USA
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4220 alt.conspiracy:11402 misc.headlines:19851 talk.religion.newage:8932
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 3 Feb 92 11:39:43 GMT

>   wasnt it roddy who said in they live :
>        "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum....and Im all out of
>         bubblegum."
>
>  it was indeed a weird film


YES, Roddy said that, the absoulute best line in the entire movie in
my opinion.
--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!rayssd!plw
From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Vallee's book "Confrontations"..Anyone here read it?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 19:56:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (White)
Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI
Lines: 30


Hmmm, the "chupas"...my suspicion is that this story was the foundation
for my favorite sci-fi film "Predator."  The basis for the predator in
the film seems remarkably similar to the reports...that the chupas only
seemed to attack armed hunters.

It would be fascinating to locate the persons who Vallee alleges bought-up
all of the Brazilian film/files/etc regarding the subject phenomena.  He
alleges in the book that these persons were U.S. citizens.

A book I am even more interested in a Net response in is the UFO Handbook.
This book provides more good stuff on investigative techniques and how
anyone interested in the phenomenon should gird the loins with healthy
skepticism.  On the whole, the author (slips my mind right now) seems to
lean toward the belief that "something is going on" and "*wants* to believe
that there are UFO's" but the tools he describes in the book are inadequate
to come to a satisfactory conclusion with respect to UFOs.

The UFO Handbook is impressive because it describes how multiple *qualified*
witnesses can be mistaken about IFOs (identified flying objects). The book
describes the use of Geiger counters, binoculars, radar, etc. and how these
tools can be used and what their limitations are.  Especially interesting
is the Tools chapter on Statistics.

===========================================================================
Paul White
plw@rayssdb
                            Raytheon is not responsible
                                  for my opinions
===========================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!news
From: [e-mail] (Donald Yett)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: periodic snopes check (was reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 04:02:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu

Why don't you guys take this and the "Scott The Great" discussions to alt.religion.newage or alt.flame...


--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| [e-mail]  | I will not be pushed, stamped, filed, indexed,
|   Just my opinions!     | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnews!cbnewsl!fec
From: [e-mail] (f.e.carey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kirtland AFB
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 04:13:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 24


Has anybody ever tried to discover how much information is already
available about those places that seem to be the focus of out interest?

The Sept 28, 1964, issue of Missiles and Rockets (pre-Klass) has an
article on Kirtland AFB that includes a photo of underground
construction in progress.  An underground launch control center
for Minuteman missiles was going in.  Very big and very deep.
The article was about simulating nuclear blasts to test the shock
resistance of weapons systems and includes this reference to under-
ground nuclear testing:

    "At Pahute Mesa (NV), which is 7500 ft high, Atomic Energy
    Commission is drilling holes 4,500 ft deep and up to 100-in.
    diameter.  Off the main shaft numerous tunnels are drilled
    at different heights and directions..."

************************************************************************
*            "When we refuse to believe something because   *
* Frank Carey        it displeases us or is simply startingly       *
* [e-mail]    unfamiliar, the gap between fact and perception*
*            becomes a chasm - and action becomes irrelevant*
*            and irrational."    Ex-Senator Fulbright       *
************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gossip.pyramid.com!pyramid!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re:  Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 18:34:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4224 alt.conspiracy:11416 misc.headlines:19853 talk.religion.newage:8937

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
>
>     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
>  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.

Depends on whether the aliens were armed.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fact or Fiction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 18:58:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William J. Casperson) writes:

>Recently a man in California caught on video two F-16's being swallowed by
>what appeared to be a UFO.  The man is currently selling the video (Or has
>sold) to television stations around the world.  Apparently Unsolved
>Mystries has purchased the video - ??

This is the first I've heard of it.  There have been UFO-related plane
disappearances before, though.

Please try to keep us informed of any plans to show the video.

>What government agenices are currently investigating UFO crashes etc.
>What is the agency called that keeps track of all the abductions.

I really don't want to go through all the Cooper stuff right now looking
for the names.  It's all unsubstantiated anyway.  (Or do you have new
information?)

>Has anyone heard of the FEMA cover-up?  This too would also be a big help.

You mean the one where they're going to take over the country?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scranton UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 92 19:12:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>       I have seen the video tape they ran on the local news here,
>(WBRE) and I was not very impressed.  The object could have been anything.

This is true.  However, I've seen reports on other networks (computer
networks, that is) that the sightings happened again a few nights later,
and that MUFON was watching for them, and even odder things.

>Could someone please give the dates for these events so that I
>could head down to the local library and see what the papers have to say.

It was the 8th, 12th, and 13th.

Here's a message from the Fido UFO echo.  I haven't verified any of the
allegations contained in it (grass circles, black helicopters,
mutilations...) but I left the author a message asking for more information
on his sources.

If anyone can verify any of this, please let me know.

:To change the subject, there is a new wave of sightings around
:Scranton, Penn. which has been going on since about Jan 11.
:There have been sightings of large boomerang objects estimated to
:be about 1000 feet above the ground. There are other types of
:sightings as well, including a large orange-red ball which was
:seen rising up from behind a small mountain, hovering, and then
:decending again.  A couple of men were four wheeling on someones
:property and came up on top of a hill and saw circles in the
:grass in the valley below them.
:
:MUFON has now sent a team up there to stake out the area and they
:have regular video as well as night video equipment.  Linda M.
:Howe is also reported to be on the scene.
:
:If anyone on the BBS is near that area, Please keep us up to
:date.  This thing has been going on nightly since the 11th and
:some think it could be the start of another Gulf Breeze, which is
:still having sightings on a regular basis, the latest one being
:Wed, or Thrusday of this past week, that I am aware of.  It is
:reported that a Television Crew from Atlanta filmed the latest
:sightings in Gulf Breeze.  Back to the Scranton, Penn area.
:There have been reported mutilations there as well. It is also
:reported that there is a large amount of Black
:Helicopter activity in the Scranton area as well.
:The above information was related to the public on Sat, the 18th
:by Robert Berry of E.T. MONITOR.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!src.honeywell.com!umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csd1227
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Vallee's book "Confrontations"..Anyone here read it?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 06:08:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Minnesota
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul L. White) writes:
>
>Hmmm, the "chupas"...my suspicion is that this story was the foundation
>for my favorite sci-fi film "Predator."  The basis for the predator in
>the film seems remarkably similar to the reports...that the chupas only
>seemed to attack armed hunters.

Sounds like some aliens are of high moral fiber after all - just get the
humans who themselves don't respect other life-forms.  Not a bad idea!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!vjmurphy
From: [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kirtland AFB
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 06:13:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (f.e.carey) writes:
>
>Has anybody ever tried to discover how much information is already
>available about those places that seem to be the focus of out interest?
>
>The Sept 28, 1964, issue of Missiles and Rockets (pre-Klass) has an
>article on Kirtland AFB that includes a photo of underground
>construction in progress.  An underground launch control center
>for Minuteman missiles was going in.  Very big and very deep.
>The article was about simulating nuclear blasts to test the shock
>resistance of weapons systems and includes this reference to under-
>ground nuclear testing:
>
>    "At Pahute Mesa (NV), which is 7500 ft high, Atomic Energy
>    Commission is drilling holes 4,500 ft deep and up to 100-in.
>    diameter.  Off the main shaft numerous tunnels are drilled
>    at different heights and directions..."
>
    Since Kirtland Air Force Base is in New Mexico, I see no reason
for it to have a Minuteman missle launch center.  This reminds
me of the silly rumors about the tunnel system at the University
of New Mexico housing the frozen bodies of aliens.  UNM also
supposedly houses a nuclear fallout shelter and underground lab
for scientists at Los Alamos and Sandia Labs.



--
                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
"Technology is a way of organizing    \
the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!vjmurphy
From: [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re:  Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <=[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 06:15:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4229 alt.conspiracy:11421

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
>>
>>     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
>>  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.
>
>Depends on whether the aliens were armed.
>
    Actually, it depends on if they exist.


--
                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
"Technology is a way of organizing    \
the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 06:57:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <10600@augustus>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 57
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4230 talk.religion.newage:8938 sci.skeptic:20071

[look, I deleted EVERYTHING, OK?]

I have this feeling there is a clash of cultures going on here. Granted,
we are talking about a pretty controversial subject. Alien visitors
are not discussed over tea with Barb and George on Pennsylvannia Av.. You
either discuss this stuff with your shrink, your cell mate, or other people
who think there is something other than blithering mythical trash,
pay-as-you-go religion, or Dungeons and Dragons going on here.

Listen. All you religious Zealots out there. Whatever religion it happens
to be -- religion of the christians, buddists, taoists, or Shirly MacLaine,

The reason people get mad at discussions centering on unprovable belief is
that such discussion has no apparent aim than the self-satisfaction of
the sender. To many people on this newsgroup, voyeurism is not the
"unrecognized truth and wisdom" that the perpetrators of such fanaticism
claim it to be.

Most of you are extremely well educated and well read. In most cultures,
the wise men/women, the Shamen, the Priests, the Oracles, do not
practice exhibitionism. Consequently, to someone who expects a person
of deep wisdom and understanding to be controlled and reserved, a
person who proselytizes does not seem to be wise. The "look at what I
have and you dont" type of posting frequently seen here, to a
thinking person, seems like childish playground activity. This kind
of radical, uncontrolled fanaticism is particularly dangerous to young
people. As a father, my loathe for such behavour runs deep.

As its appropriate for this type of discussion , Ill cite that venerable
sage Woody Allen, "I wouldn't belong to a club that would have
me as a member". I have a feeling there are no Shamen on this net.
True Shamen would follow the words of Woody.

Which means Im not a Shaman. Im not anything but interested in the subtle
truths of this topic. The best things in life are subtle. Wine, sex, food,
movies, books, the moment of finally understanding what has been with us
all along but never perceived, the first words of a child, the sigh
that betrays anothers love for you -- any of these could be blasted
away by a fleas breathing. And if there is any reality for any of
us for the phenomena discussed, in theory, on this net, then it will
be found in the nuances of the perception of human history and the
bluing of the ink black sky at dawn.

You will gain no respect from the true believers by hurling superlatives
and unprovable mythology from computer amplified cannon. The true
believers are sifting sand, one grain at a time, to find the "truth" written
on one of those grains on this goddammed beach.


Joe


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!uunet!psinntp!ultb!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!TJM8890
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 18:43:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4231 talk.religion.newage:8942 sci.skeptic:20074
Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxa.isc.rit.edu

Hello!

 There have been numerous posts being sent to the wrong newsgroups,
as I see "alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic" up
here on this reply.  I've gone through help, and I've been told
that /distribution does not change this.

  So, how can the messages be changed to stick to ONE newsgroup?
We're having a lot of friction getting messages from the wrong
newsgroups.  I mean, we even have bleedthroughs between the satanists
and the christians!!

  Post it to as many newsgroups as possible, so that everyone can
set their replies back to the newsgroups it should be going to.

                        Tyson
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!infopiz!lupine!motcsd!udc!mcdphx!hrc!gtephx!rossm
From: [e-mail] (Mary Ross)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 92 20:21:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: gte
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>
> I'm afraid Ashtar will have to do better than that.  Assuming the aliens really
> do have the ability to control their visibility, once they make themselves
> visible to the human eye, they are visible to the camera.  Please ask your
> friend just what the frequency is that is completely visible to the human eye
> and only partially visible to cameras.  If she would prefer to simply give
> the wavelength, that is acceptable too...
>
Just as some people are more sensitive to sound, some people are more sensitive
to sight; therefore, what would appear completely visible to one person may be only
hazy to another standing along side.  I am not actually talking about normal vision,
but about extrasensory vision.  Just as some people are able to hear other beings
(channelers), some people are able to see other beings more readily than others.

>
> No problem... Here's Ashtar's big opportunity to contribute to our
> understanding of the universe.
>

It's been mentioned at some point in the newsgroup that if your looking for 'proof'
you will probably never find it.  You must turn inside to that part of you that is
truly connected to the universe to find your own truth.  Whatever you find there is
perfect for you at your point in your spiritual travels.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Ross @ AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, AZ
UUCP: {...!ames!ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!hrc | att}!gtephx!rossm
Internet: gtephx![e-mail]
voice: [phone]        fax:   [phone]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ARIZONA UFOs/JFK
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 13:41:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 7

Mary Ross writes:  "You must turn inside to that part of you
that is truly connected to the universe to find your own
truth."

Beautifully said, Mary.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims!  (was Re: Creating reality...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 92 13:48:30 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Distribution: usa
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Joe Mastroianni writes:  "Wine, sex, food, movies, books,
the moment of fully understanding what has been ith us all along
but never perceived...."


Ahhhhhhh.....yes  :-)  I totally concur with your line of thought/
thinking/viewing/perceiving.

Regarding all the battling for the centuries over religions and
dogma:  My own feeling is that it is because the ego and its'
beliefs are attached to a person's identity.  When this attachment
is broken (through whatever means of inner work the person uses)
then an opening for tolerance and wisdom can commence.

Good post, Joe...very good.

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Area 51, Facility S4?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 21:21:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes:

>"...what can you find out about Area 51, Facility S4 in the
> Mojave desert. I know SETI is, literally, right around the
> corner from it but nobody's talking about what the other
> is for."

    I have never heard of S4 but Area 51 is getting to be fairly
commonly known amongst those of us who are aviation freaks.  The area
is shown on maps as "Groom Lake (dry)" and was known to the CIA folks
as "the Ranch" for one and sometimes "Dreamland" for another nickname.

    The upshot of most of the Groom Lake facility is that it is where
the first U2's were tested in the 50's.  It is also where the first
Blackbirds, the CIA's A12's were tested and operated from.  You would also
find that the Lockheed Have Blue aircraft, the proof-of-concept vehicle
for the F117A Nighthawk, were tested there.  The Northrop TR3A Black
Manta, of which we still know very little was supposed to have been
tested there (really an outgrowth of both the THAP - Tactical High
Altitude Penetrator - and the CSIRS, which I don't recall the meaning of).

    More than likely the Lockheed Aurora is flying out of there
and is probably responsible for a lot of questions - an aircraft called
"the pulser" probably flies out of there as well.  Lord only knows (and
the USAF....) what other good shit comes tooting out of Groom Lake late
at night.

>Also, my friend would be interested in any new data on
>Hangar 21.

    Right off the top of my head I'd say it is probably between
hangars 20 and 22....  :-)

Duane
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Peck)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 19:46:15 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carlos Dragonslayer Butler) writes:
|>     I think the movie was "They Live," featuring Rowdy Rowdy
|> Piper of WWF fame :)

I remember this movie - it's not that old either, I thought it was pretty good
(remember Rowdy in Hell Comes to FrogTown?).  I can't believe he's back in the
ring now...  Oops - sorry, I'm off the topic... Couldn't resist...

--

[e-mail]      Chris Peck
[e-mail]  SUNY Binghamton, NY
--"Any opinions expressed above are mine, ALL MINE!"--
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!male!randmc
From: [e-mail] (Randal Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The REPTOIDS Are Coming!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 22:56:35 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
Lines: 155



                 THIS INFORMATION COULD SAVE YOUR LIFE AND FREEDOM
          THE COMING "OFFICIAL" ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE ALIEN PRESENCE ON EARTH
     WHY "STAR WARS", THE HUBBLE SPACE TELSCOPE,THE SUDDEN FALL OF COMMUNISM?
________________________________________________________________________________

What is going on?  Something very sinister is going on.  Polls reveal that
over 90% of the americans people believe in UFO's and 95% of these people
believe the government is keeping this knowledge from the public.  But Why?
Are they afraid the people  will panic if an "Official" announcement were
made? Hardly. Such an announcement would create interest and excitement and
many questions, particularly by the churches, but do not panic.  Why then the
continued cover-up?

There is overwhelming evidence in the past several years from "Whistle
Blowers" retired military officers who have finally said, "Enough is enough!
It's time the government told the people the truth!" These officers, such as
Navy Intelligence officer, William Cooper, Major John Lear (whose father
founded the Lear Jet Corp.) and Air Force officer William English, to name
but a few, have all discovered the truth, and at the risk of their very
lives, are trying to alert YOU to the secrets behind the UFO's and the Alien
Presence on this earth. These people worked on the secret projects, had
access to 'classified' Top Secret documents , had seen with there own eyes
'captured' aliens, or extreterrestrial entities, UFO's and the incredible
technology they brought with them.

Sightings of UFO's have been reported throughout history, and biblical and
historic references to "Flaming Chariots" huge flying 'birds' and odd looking
beings predate our history by thousands of years.  In the 1940's several
alien spacecraft were recovered by the U.S. and other countries, along with a
few dead aliens and one live one they named EBE (a name suggested by
Dr.Vannever Bush and was short for Extraterrestrail Biolgical Entity).

In 1953 astronomers discoverd large objects in space which were moving toward
earth.  At first they believed they were asteroids, but later evidence proved
the objects could only be spaceships.  Project Sigma and Project Plato
intercepted alien radio communication and using the computer binary language,
was able to arrange a landing that resulted in face-to-face contact with
alien beings from another planet.  Meanwhile, a race of human-looking aliens
contacted the U.S. Government, warning us that the aliens orbiting the
equator were hostile beings from Orion.  These human-type aliens demanded we
dismantle and destroy our nuclear weapons, that we were on a path of
self-destruction and we must stop killing each other, stop polluting the
earth, stop raping the earths natural resources and learn to live in harmony
with one another. President Eisenhower rejected these demands.

Later in 1954 the race of aliens, known as Greys, from Zeta Reticuli area in
space, who had been orbiting the equator, landed at Holloman Air Force base.
they stated their planet was dying and needed quarters on earth to conduct
genetic experiments theat might allow their race to survive; this in exchange
for certain technology.  President Eisenhower  met with the aliens a
formal treaty was signed.  The treaty stated the aliens would not interfere
in our affairs and we would not interfere in theirs.  We would keep their
presence on earth secret; they would furnish us with advanced technology.
They could abduct humans on a limited basis for the purpose of medical
examination and monitoring, with the stipulation that the humans would not be
harmed, would be returned to their point of abduction, that the humans have
no memory of the event.  It was also agreed the alien bases would be
constructed underground, beneath Indian reservations in the 4 corners area of
Utah, New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado.  Another was to be constructed in
Nevada in the area known as S-4, about 7 miles south of area 51, known as
'Dreamland'.  A multi-billion dollar secret fund was organized and kept by
the Military Office of the White House, supposedly to build secret
underground sites for the President and the staff in case of military
attacks.

By secret Executive Memorandum, NSC5410, Eisenhower established a permanent
committee known as "Majority Twelve" (MJ12) to oversee and conduct all covert
activities with the aliens.  This included FBI director J. Edgar Hoover and
six leaders of the 'Council on Foreign Relations, known as the 'Wise Men' and
later others from the Trilateral Commision.  George Bush, Gordon Dean, and
Brzezinski were among them.

A major finding of the commision was the aliens were using humans and animals
for a source on glandular secretions, enzymes, hormonal secretions, blood and
in horrible genetic experiments.  The aliens explained these actions as
necessary for their survival, that if their genetic structure were not
improved, their race would cease to exist.

The ruling powers decided that one means of funding the alien project was to
corner the illegal drug market.  A young ambitious member of the Council on
Foreign Relations was approached.  His name is George Bush who at the time
was preident and CEO of Zapata Oil Co. based in Texas.  Zapata Oil was
experimenting with offshore oil drilling and it was arranged that the drugs
could be shipped from South America to the offshore platforms by fishing
boats, then transferred to the U.S. shore by normal transportation, thus
avoiding search by customs agents.  The plan worked better than anyone
expected, and today the CIA controls all the world's illegal drug markets.
One should remember, it was George Bush who first started selling drugs to
our children. The drug money was used to finance the deep underground alien
bases.

Conclusions: the Bilderburgers, the Council on Foreign Relations and the
Trilateral Commision are the SECRET GOVERNMENT and rule this nation through
MJ-12 and the study group known as the Jason Society.

Throughout history the aliens have manipulated and/or ruled the human race
through various secret societies, religion and the occult.  The CFR and the
Trilateral Commision are in complete control of the alien technology and the
nation's economy.  Eisenhower was the last president to know  the entire
overview  of the alien problem.  Succeeding presidents were told only what
MJ-12 wanted them to know, and it was NOT the truth.  MJ-12 presented each
new president with a picture of a lost alien culture seeking to renew itself,
build a home on this planet and shower us with gifts of technology.  Each
president has bought the story hook, line, and sinker.  Meanwhile, innocent
people continue to suffer unspeakable horrors at the handsof alien and human
scientists who are engaged in barbarous research  that would make the Nazis
pale in comparison.  As if that is not enough, many people end up as food for
the insatiable alien appetite for biological enzymes, hormonal secretions and
blood.  At least 1 in every 40 Americans have been implanted with alien
devices that are used to control them if necessity calls.

By 1989 over 3 million 'Greys' are occupying these deep multi-level
underground complexes.  Level 7 at Dulce is called "Nightmare Hall". They
have welched on their agreement on abducting humans; today over 25 million
citizens have been abducted and implanted, a literal army awaiting oreders to
march! (Whitley Strieber has written bestselling on his personal expierience
as have many others).  For this reason other nations were informed.  Within 5
months the communist monolith Russia was dismantled to unite with the U.S.
and it's technology to fight the invasion.  The Hubble Space Telescope was
created to keep a watchful eye on the invasion fleet; Star Wars technology
has been developed to hopefully stop them in outer space before they can get
to the earth.

Today, the government is on the horns of a dilemma.  Too may sources are
releasing alien information.  The public could get angry at continued
secrecy. So MJ-12 plans soon to make an "Official" announcement, under
controlled conditions, probably Area 51.  Network TV will be called to meet
the staged 'landing' of the aliens, these being the Greys.  They will come
bearing gifts, technology that supposedly will heal Cancer and AIDS, retard
aging, etc.  They will tell us they are 'saviors of humanity' who have come
to defend the earth against an invasion of man-eating aliens called Reptoids.

This story is a LIE, they already work for the Reptoids!  Their plan is to
unify the world into a One-world Government, a 'New World Order' with the
argument that only this can defeat the invasion by Reptoids.  This is a trap
to enslave the world's population.  Control will be accomplished through the
money system, a universal currency controlled by certain international
bankers, who for years have been lackeys of the aliens, who seized upon their
greed and lust for wealth and power as a means to bring about their evil plan
to control the earth.  (This also being the scenario predicted in the Bible's
'Book of Revelation' wherein only those who accept the Mark of the Beast (the
aliens being the 'Beast' and the 'Mark' being some sort of laser tattoo or
Credit Card they will use, which will allow people to buy and sell goods).
Those who do not accept this 'Mark' must live outside the money system and
survive somehow on their own, through barter etc.

SO BE AWARE! ONLY YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THIS FAKE INVASION AND FAKE RAPTURE CAN
PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING. DEMAND THE TRUTH FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT. TELL THEM
YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ALIENS AND THAT THERE ARE GOOD ALIENS AND BAD ALIENSAND
THAT MJ-12 IS PROMOTING THE BAD ALIENS AND THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT THEY HOPE
TO CONTROL.

----- End Included Article -----
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ALIEN VISITORS AT BAB
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 01:37:19 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 2

Several students have reported alien visitors in the MBA program.
More details as they are made available.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!cary107.its.rpi.edu!morale
From: [e-mail] (Enrique Morales)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: otra prueba ms
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 21:45:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt
Organization: Information Technology Services, Rennselaer Polytechnic Institute.
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No jodas mas con las pruebas y pon algo!!!!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!microsoft!marcmil
From: [e-mail] (Marc MILANINI)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Albert Einstein from Ummo ???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 92 21:00:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
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More about the "Ummits"...

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>
>>I find it hard to believe that a star only 15 LY away hasn't been
>>identified yet.  But otherwise, that was a fascinating article.
>
>I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe this, as that star would be a bright,
>*naked eye* object. Without doing the detailed calculation, at 4
>light years, a solar-like star, Alpha Centauri, is magnitude 0.
>At 10 parsecs (32.6 LYR), the sun would be mag 5, a faint star but
>still visible to the naked eye. So at 15 LYR you're at something
>like magnitude 2, roughly like the stars in the Big Dipper.
>
>And scientists still haven't *noticed* this star yet, nooooooo!
>

I see that this is the main point that has interested you. It is true
that such a star could be identified very easily if the Ummit letters
were more specific. Again, I don't have the book with me, but I recall
that only two or three stars were corresponding to their description.
So far, no hint has been given to choose among them. Your calculations
are certainly correct, a star like the the Sun would be visible
to the naked eye at such a distance.

What bothers me the most in that story is the fact that the Ummits
warn the contactees never to accept anything that they write as granted.
On the contrary, they should always doubt of the letters they receive.

>
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
> Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!
>
>       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
>        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"

I  like to discuss on a scientific basis about such stories. As I told
you, JP Petit, although very much biased towards believing in ufos, is
not the kind of guy to be abused by the kind of stuff that I read from
time to time in this newsgroup -especially today-. He doubts himself
of the story he tells in his book, but the scientific content he found
in the letters makes him think that at least very imaginative and
knowledgeable people are behind it. As far as I am concerned, I believe
that JP Petit could very well transform certain science-fiction  books
in refered scientific articles. So, that case is very likely to be a hoax.
I would like to be more familiar with the Ummit litterature to make up
my mind by myself.

--
=---K8>>@@@@@@@@ Marc Milanini @@@@ [e-mail] @@@@%%
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From: [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 05:46:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes...
>>
>>     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
>>  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.
>
>    I seriously doubt anyone would try this if they were witnessing
>    a landing. Also, if you did enough homework about this subject
>    you would know that any such attempts would be useless.
>

    True.  It is hard to catch something that doesn't exist.



--
                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
"Technology is a way of organizing    \
the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Area 51, Facility S4?
Message-ID: <1992Feb3.214805.17905@anasaz>
Date: 3 Feb 92 21:48:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
->A friend of mine who doesn't have access to the .net asks
->
->"...what can you find out about Area 51, Facility S4 in the
-> Mojave desert. I know SETI is, literally, right around the
-> corner from it but nobody's talking about what the other
-> is for."
->
->Also, my friend would be interested in any new data on
->Hangar 21.
->
Area 51 is a secret Air Force test range about 125 miles north of Las Vegas,
Nevada.  It's secret in that you can't go there or fly over it but everybody
knows its there.  Lot's of people who live in Las Vegas work in Area 51 and
make no secret about it.

The Stealth fighter and B2 bomber were tested there and Aurora is based there
now. They also test new weaponry there - lasers for example.  It's been
alleged there's a test fusion reactor there too.

S4, or Section 4, is the location Robert Lazar said he worked in when he saw
UFOs at Area 51. There is an S1 and an S2 so it may follow there's an S4 but
he's the only one who I've heard mention it so far.

Hanger 21?  Never heard of it.  There's a science fiction movie called
"Hanger 18" about a captured UFO. I think it was blown up in the movie.


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Vallee's book "Confrontations"..Anyone here read it?
Message-ID: <1992Feb3.215444.18379@anasaz>
Date: 3 Feb 92 21:54:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Travis R. Stone) writes:
->Hello, Chaps!
->
->   I thought it would be a nice change of pace from the "War of the Words"
->currently being carried on by Kathy and Scott by asking the friendly folks
->of alt.alien.visitors if any of you have read Jaques Vallee's 1990 book
->"Confrontations", and if you have, what did you think of it?  I thought
->it was rather interesting, especially the part about the "chupas"---the
->flying icebox-like things that have supposedly been zapping people in
->South America---mentioned in the 'Lethal Impact' chapter.

Agreed. I have always liked Vallee's style because he does a more careful
job of research than so many others in this field.

The problem I have with the "chupas" is that there's no verification when
the claim is indeed so easy to verify.  If these flying iceboxes come around
almost every night and zap people stupid enough to climb trees when they
do, why hasn't anyone taken some pictures?
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Summary: mars face
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 14:01:56 GMT
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Lines: 77
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26149 sci.skeptic:20110 alt.alien.visitors:4244 alt.paranormal:4315



Hi to all UFO-researchers out there,

Recently there was posted a GIF-pic, which shows the so called MARS-face.
 Yes ,the small GIF-pics I also downloaded here
from the various newsgroups, where they were posted in uuencoded format.

It was the picture: MARSFACE.GIF with 20715 Bytes.
It showed only the "face". Inside the GIF pic, there  are 2 original frames.
Frame 35A72 and Frame 70A13 compared in RAW and Enhanced format.
But the resolution is only about 100*100 pixel in 256 grey shades!

Much more important is the picture inside the book called:
" Live on Mars" by Mr. Johannes from Buttlar
It is of course an enhanced picture, but there the resolution might have been
1000*1000 pixels with greyshades !
It shows a lot more of the Cydonia region, where the "face" is located !
The face measures 1.5 kilometers in diameter. 15 Kilometers west there are
a few "pyramids" located !!!!
They are so rectangular and also their shadows are so clearly straight, that
this hardly can be an optical delusion !
And also the fact, that they are so close to the face, makes me wonder, if the
"face" is not an optical delusion at all!

And this picture inside the mentioned book must be also another picture, than
the 2 originals which were posted in the GIF-pic, cause the shadow of the
face goes into another direction (different deegrees of angle), than the
shadows on the GIF-pic.

I will post soon the picture from the book in *.JPEG format inside the
various newsgroups here on the newsnet, so all people could also see the
"pyramids". But before I would like to see the original pictures from the
Mars probes, so I can see, how much the picture inside the book was
enhanced !
So if You know anbody, maybe DiPietro or Gregory Molenaar, who had introduced
the pictures to the public, or anybody else at JPL who knows, where the
original pictues are stored, You might ask them for a copy and put in on any
FTP Server ?
Inside the book, it was told, that about 300.000 pictures were done by the
probes and that only 60.000 are evaluated. The other 240.000 pictures are
still located unevaluated inside the archive of National Space Science Data
Center in Greenbelt,Maryland. Maybe You know somebody over there or You can
mail me an email-adress of somebody I can send a mail ?

I'm very interested in all this UFO-stuff and want to have facts.
I have the equipment(24 bit scanner and realtime color framegrabber) to do
digitizing and converting to movie like animation with the SVGA FLI-player
from Trilobyte for TV-quality animation on PCs with SVGA cards.

So, who has a few good ufo sighting video tapes, which could be digitized
and put to a FTP to share it with the people from the net ?
You can also email me a contact adress, where I can buy a few .

So lets find the truth and share it with all interested people.

When will be the new MARS Observer launched ? I didn't followed the recent
events. When will it reach Mars ?


By the way, there was the rumour here in the alt.alien.visitors-newsgroup,
that the probe Phobos II has taken some pictures of an cigar shaped object
(ufo?), before loosing contact to earth. Does anybody know, if this is true ?
Has anybody seen the last pictures, Phobos II has sent to Earth ?

Hope to get answers. Many thanks in advance.
Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Workshop for decentral Energy Research.
email to: [e-mail]


--

*******************************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:                           *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                                            *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79                   *
*******************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero.org!robert
From: [e-mail] (R. S. Statsinger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The REPTOIDS Are Coming!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 18:00:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Ssaymssik Inc.
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Randal Martin) writes:
>
> [delusions ommitted]
>

What a bunch of paranoid sensationalist CRAP. Let's have some PROOF, people!
This stuff is no better than the pseudo-scientific horseshit about
"different vibratory frequencies" of previous postings.

Bob S.
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From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics,sci.astro,sci.energy,sci.engr,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.skeptic,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Two IECEC Papers by T.E. Bearden posted to sci.physics and a.s.p.n.
Summary: Physics unification theory (with exptl. support) may have, if proven correct, revolutionary impacts on energy, environment, military, aeronautics, space travel, engineering, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 19:17:10 GMT
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 56
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I just posted to sci.physics and alt.sci.physics.new-theories two papers by
Mr. Tom E. Bearden (with his permission) which appeared in the Proceedings of
the 26th Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, August 4-9,
1991, Boston, Massachusetts.  They can be found in volume 4 in the section
entitled 'Advanced Energy Concepts'.  The titles are

"Utilizing Scalar Electromagnetics to Tap Vacuum Energy" by Floyd Sweet
and Tom E. Bearden (pp. 370-375)

and

"On a Testable Unification of Electromagnetics, General Relativity, and
Quantum Mechanics" by Tom E. Bearden and Walter Rosenthal (pp. 487-492)


Except for the unsupported conjectures dealing with mind, thought and life,
which bring his results almost into the metaphysical realm, I find these papers
to be very intriguing and compelling.  They deal with a theory (supported by
some experimental evidence that Mr. Bearden will expand upon in the near
future) that, if correct, will have revolutionary impacts on energy,
environment, military, aeronautics, space travel, engineering, etc.  Thus
the posting of this notice to the other associated newsgroups.  You need not
be a physicist to appreciate Mr. Bearden's comments.

As you can see in the "Followup-To:" line, I am directing discussion to
alt.sci.physics.new-theories, since that is the most appropriate place for
discussion.  If your site does not receive a.s.p.n., then let me know, and
I can send you summaries of whatever discussion follows (hopefully a lot).
Of course, if your site doesn't receive a.s.p.n, then ask your sysadmin if
it would be possible to receive it.

BTW, Mr. Bearden is not (yet) on the net, but he has agreed to let me be a
go-between, and I'll try to post his comments on whatever discussion ensues.
If anybody is interested, I do have his phone number and you can call him
for more information and/or clarification.  He'd be happy to talk to you.

I hope you find these papers as intriguing as I have.  If nothing else, it
will help you to firm up your foundation of physics.  Please, let's keep an
open, yet critical mind, and let's not allow the discussion to develop into
a flame war.


Jon Noring


--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
=============================================================================
"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com!sword.eng.hou.compaq.com!mccreary
From: [e-mail] (Ed McCreary)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 19:03:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Account)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
Lines: 35
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26170 sci.skeptic:20121 alt.alien.visitors:4247 alt.paranormal:4318


There are only two images taken of the region in question, frames
35A72 and 70A13.  If memory serves, they are 1024x1024 with 8-bit grey
scale.  I have one of the full images at home.  If you want a copy,
mail me a 3.5 or 5.25 disk with return postage.  I'll copy it and mail
it to you.  I don't think my copy is corrupted.  The file is over a meg,
so please don't ask me to post it.  My address is  9550 Ella Lee Lane,
apt. #2149  Houston,TX 77063.

Image processing is a hobby of mine, and I've played around with the
two images off and on for the past few years.  My opinion?  It's a pile
of dirt.  The "pyramids" around the area are mountains, naturally occuring.
I've paged through Richard Hoagland's (?) book on the marsface and saw
some pretty pictures.  He even has schematics for what the underground
city looks like.  I haven't read it, but I see no basis for such detail
on a civilization when all we have to go one is two pictures.

I hope one day to write a program that will extract 3-D information
regarding the image from the shading.  Right now I'm in the middle of
porting all of my standard tools over to windows, so it will be a while
before I can implement it.  I have a lot of code to write and a lot of
theory to go through.

The Mars Observer should be going up sometime late this decade or
early in the next.  From what I understand, the mission team has
has decided to take several high resolution photos of the "city"
up close.  Then, as Loren Carpenter said, we'll get to see what
piles of dirt look like up close.


--
[e-mail]     Computers are like Old Testament gods;
[e-mail]                      lots of rules and no mercy.
#include <stddisclaimer.h>                                  Joseph Campbell
                "Ooooohhhh we got movie sign!!" MST3K
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^2: Area 51, Facility S4?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 18:58:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1992Feb3.214805.17905@anasaz>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Trough and Brew
Lines: 4
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunmg

>... The Stealth fighter and B2 bomber were tested there and Aurora is
>based there now. ...

Aurora is a very high altitude recon plane?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 21:14:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: pogo.corp.sun.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael P. Deignan) writes:
>[e-mail] (David Jones) writes:

>>    Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?

>Because it was determined that the "eyewitnesses" were suffering from a
>condition known as a "bad trip".

Oops...:-)
--
Ed Carp     [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
preferred --^^^^^^^^^^^^^                     415/336-0797 (work)
++ UNIX  SysAdmin, Systems  Programming  Services,  Utilities ++
++ and Programmer Productivity Tools                          ++
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 21:36:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26178 sci.skeptic:20124 alt.alien.visitors:4250 alt.paranormal:4319
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed McCreary) writes:
>The Mars Observer should be going up sometime late this decade or
>early in the next.  From what I understand, the mission team has
>has decided to take several high resolution photos of the "city"
>up close.  Then, as Loren Carpenter said, we'll get to see what
>piles of dirt look like up close.

I've heard rumors that the Mars Observer Camera electronics has been assembled
and tested.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 16:35:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook) writes:
>>
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus) writes...
>>>
>>>     Who were the witnesses? Why didn't they attempt to capture
>>>  the aliens?  Twelve against two seems like good odds to me.
>>

I called the news department at KSBW and they refered me to a reporter in
San Luis Obispo at station KSBY named Tony. Tony told me that the woman
who owned the property where the sightings took place wishes to remain
nameless. I wanted to know because when I lived very near the sighting
spot I saw one also. The sightings have been occuring every day since
November. I asked for them to send me the video but it hasn't come yet.
I plan to go there myself next weekend if I can get away. I'll let you
know what I see.



--
=========================================================================
  All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk.
  "Tis true; theres magic in the web of it." [e-mail]
=========================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Area 51, Facility S4?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 23:00:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1992Feb3.214805.17905@anasaz> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 35

[e-mail] writes:

>>... The Stealth fighter and B2 bomber were tested there and Aurora is
>>based there now. ...

>Aurora is a very high altitude recon plane?

Aurora is a name for a black project that was accidentally released in,
uh, 1985 or 86 I think, in a congressional budget report.  The generic
information that has been slowly seeping out is that we are dealing
with a high-altitude recon aircraft of some sort, possibly unmanned.
It may be hypersonic in the sense that speeds could be well above the
Blackbirds Mach 3.2+.  There have been test vehicles that have flown
in the Mach 10+ range, according to some reports, although these may
not have been connected to Aurora.  Keep in mind that Aurora may be
just a bogus code name, but there DOES appear to be at LEAST this
black aircraft (more, really.....).

Aurora is one seriously damn blackworld project and there is precious
little information about it.

A number of people who have been digging around on it are reputed to
have been visited by the folks in the blue suits and told to back off.
I can't verify that, but that is what I have been told.

Names I can't and won't name, in part because a number of these folks
actually may work in DOD-related areas, and unfortunately, this newsgroup
does NOT enjoy a reputation for being a source of factual information.

I post this information in the hope of spreading about what little
appears to be common knowledge and may be reasonably accurate until
such time as more becomes available, rather than relying on a bunch
of tabloid-based rumours.

Duane
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 23:50:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <10600@augustus> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: pogo.corp.sun.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni) writes:

>Most of you are extremely well educated and well read. In most cultures,
>the wise men/women, the Shamen, the Priests, the Oracles, do not
>practice exhibitionism. Consequently, to someone who expects a person
>of deep wisdom and understanding to be controlled and reserved, a
>person who proselytizes does not seem to be wise. The "look at what I

Who ever told you that?  Why should a shaman behave in a manner that
you expect them to?  Posting on the net isn't necessarily exhibitionism,
nor is it "I'm enlightened and you aren't, nyaaah".  I will agree that
there are loud-mouths out there, but they are just expressing their
dissatisfaction and self-seeking in ways that you don't expect.

>people. As a father, my loathe for such behavour runs deep.

Children often behave in ways that adults find loathsome.  Does that
mean that the behavior should be suppressed or controlled by you?

>As its appropriate for this type of discussion , Ill cite that venerable
>sage Woody Allen, "I wouldn't belong to a club that would have
>me as a member". I have a feeling there are no Shamen on this net.
>True Shamen would follow the words of Woody.

A "true" shaman (whatever that is) would be guided by his/her own higher
truth in determining what to do.  Some would follow the words of Woody, as
you put it, others wouldn't.  As to a "true" shaman, if you are on the path,
you ARE, else you aren't.

>You will gain no respect from the true believers by hurling superlatives
>and unprovable mythology from computer amplified cannon. The true
>believers are sifting sand, one grain at a time, to find the "truth" written
>on one of those grains on this goddammed beach.

Who is to say that one cann't find enlightenment and truth here?  "When the
student is ready, the Master will appear."  And appear EVERYWHERE...
--
Ed Carp     [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
preferred --^^^^^^^^^^^^^                     415/336-0797 (work)
++ UNIX  SysAdmin, Systems  Programming  Services,  Utilities ++
++ and Programmer Productivity Tools                          ++
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!vjmurphy
From: [e-mail] (Phred T. Platypus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 00:23:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise) writes:
>
>I called the news department at KSBW and they refered me to a reporter in
>San Luis Obispo at station KSBY named Tony. Tony told me that the woman
>who owned the property where the sightings took place wishes to remain
>nameless. I wanted to know because when I lived very near the sighting
>spot I saw one also. The sightings have been occuring every day since
>November. I asked for them to send me the video but it hasn't come yet.
>I plan to go there myself next weekend if I can get away. I'll let you
>know what I see.
>

     Every day?  Since November?  I would expect to see VERY clear
 photos/video of the objects - hell, I'd get a professional camera
 crew out there to shoot the object.  I expect, though, that the
 actual video will be a piece of crap.  Sounds like a Gulf Breeze
 hoax.


--
                   Phred Platypus [ [e-mail] ]
"Technology is a way of organizing    \
the universe so that man doesn't       \   The Grammarian of Vengeance
have to experience it."   -- Max Frisch \
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cooper, Lear, et. al.
Keywords: Coopr, Lear, UFO
Message-ID: <1992Feb4.223335.18847@anasaz>
Date: 4 Feb 92 22:33:35 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 65


>           THIS INFORMATION COULD SAVE YOUR LIFE AND FREEDOM
>     THE COMING "OFFICIAL" ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE ALIEN PRESENCE ON EARTH
>  WHY "STAR WARS", THE HUBBLE SPACE TELSCOPE,THE SUDDEN FALL OF COMMUNISM?

    (lots of blather deleted)

Come on guy, THINK before you post. If you're interested in this stuff,
do your homework first or you look foolish.

"Intelligence Officer" William Cooper? Where in the world did you come
up with that?  Not his newsletter I hope.

Cooper is one of the most bogus bozos in the business! If you had checked,
you would have found that Milton W. ("Bill") Cooper (Social Security Number
442-44-4234) was an enlisted man, not an officer, discharged in 1975 after
spending 3 years as quartermaster for an intelligence briefing team.  The
highest rank he achieved in all his 14 years in the Navy was QM1,
pay-grade E6, hardly a level that would have access to the top secret
information he reports. I'll send you a copy of his DD256N (honorable
discharge) if you like.

The last time I saw John Lear (about 2 years ago) he was conducting UFO
seminars in Las Vegas at $5.00 a head. He has a whole list of off the wall
claims ranging from who shot Kennedy (his driver) to the source of AIDS
(CIA - to make room for the greys) to UFOs in the desert (Robert Lazar.)

William English says he's a retired Air Force officer who served in
England in the middle to late 70's.  He first surfaced about 1980 through
a Tucson based UFO group. I have copies of affidavits he gave Linda
Howe but no docmentation as to his background.

Not only are your sources out of the lunatic fringe but the case you
make is full of holes.

Why would George Bush, an obscure Texas oilman in his young 30's at the
time, be appointed to a top secret high level presidential advisory group?

I think Brezinski (assuming you mean Zig), was still in Poland at the time.
He too would have been in his young 30's and not even a US citizen. Again,
how would he ever end up on a such a high level commission?

The Hubble Telescope, "Star Wars" and the fall of the Soviet Union all
had origins long before 1989.

Alien space craft that zap across the galaxy faster than light aren't
threatened by a chemically powered rocket that spits brilliant pebbles.

Hubble to watch the alien fleet?  Get real.

Legend has it that Truman, not Eisenhower, established MJ-12.

Oh, I just noticed the part where you say "it was George Bush who first
started selling drugs to our children."  You're not a UFO nut, you're
a Democrat.  That explains everything.  Sorry.

>SO BE AWARE! ONLY YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THIS FAKE INVASION AND FAKE RAPTURE CAN
>PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING. DEMAND THE TRUTH FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT. TELL THEM
>YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ALIENS AND THAT THERE ARE GOOD ALIENS AND BAD ALIENSAND
>THAT MJ-12 IS PROMOTING THE BAD ALIENS AND THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT THEY HOPE
>TO CONTROL.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re:  Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 18:16:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4256 talk.religion.newage:9005 sci.skeptic:20142

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
> There have been numerous posts being sent to the wrong newsgroups,
>as I see "alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic" up
>here on this reply.  I've gone through help, and I've been told
>that /distribution does not change this.

Yes, the Distribution: line is used to change the *geographic* distribution
of news, not the groups it's posted to.

If your news software doesn't allow you to change the groups you post a
followup to, I'm afraid it's inferior software.  Keep in mind however that
the rest of out here don't have any idea what news software is running on
ritvax, so we can't tell you whether or not it supports this.

For this *particular* thread, however, the best thing for it to do is just
die, as soon as possible.  I can't see *any* sense at all in continuing it
in *any* newsgroup.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Message From The Pleiades
Summary: song lyrics
Keywords: Pleiadian friends
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 08:45:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 71
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4257 talk.religion.newage:9007


"From the constellation of the Pleiades
 Come a race of people strong and wise
 From the children of the Seven Sisters
 Come glowing discs that light up our skies

 Across the many light years they have traveled
 To bring a message to the men of Earth
 Of life among the stars akin to mankind
 And of the universal law of common birth

 We are one, we are one, from the same source we have come
 Though we were born under different skies
 And we've come, we have come just to show you we are one
 And we hope, your heritage, you'll realize

 Through the loveliness and grace of a woman
 Was the contact first established with mankind
 For they knew they must appeal to man's emotions
 Before they could open up his mind

 For they know the race of man was fraught with fearing
 Concerning things he thinks to be unknown
 While in his heart he dreams of one day finding
 That in this universe he's not alone

 We are one, we are one, from the same place we have come
 Though we were born under different skies
 And we've come, we have come just to show you we are one
 And we hope, your heritage, you realize

 But they knew they must give proof of their existence
 If the men of Earth were e're to realize
 That there are those who traveled 'cross the distance
 All the way to Earth from foreign skies

 They encouraged their contact to take pictures
 While they taught him how to open up his mind
 So that he could understand and give the message
 From the people of the Pleiades to mankind

 We are one, we are one, from the same place we have come
 Though we were born under different skies
 And we've come, we have come just to show you we are one
 And we hope, your heritage, you realize."

--

(This song was written by Mrs. Christi Dennis, a housewife from
 Phoenix, and was taken from the book "UFO Contact from the Pleiades".
 When she saw the earlier version of this book, she was very impressed
 by the images in it. Early that next morning, after thinking about the
 possibilities, she picked up her guitar and channeled both word and
 music to the song above. She played it for her husband who recorded
 it, set down the words, and had a friend score the tune. One hearing
 this song properly experiences the sensations in their inner being
 that urged Christi to create it in the first place. A few years ago,
 when Christi was 24, she was taken aboard an extraterrestrial
 spacecraft operated by human beings just like us and, after
 examination, was treated and cured of a serious illness. She was then
 taken on a conducted tour of the spacecraft before being returned. She
 has since then learned that these humans came from what we call the
 Pleiades.)

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.PARANET.ORG!Clark.Matthews
From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Two IECEC Papers by T.E. BeaNew Bearden Papers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 08:34:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ
Lines: 30

In a message to All <04 Feb 92 18:23> Jon Noring wrote:

 JN> From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
 JN> Date: 4 Feb 92 19:17:10 GMT
 JN> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
 JN> Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 JN> Newsgroups:
 JN> sci.aeronautics,sci.astro,sci.energy,sci.e
 JN> ci.aeronautics,sci.astro,sci.energy,sci.e JN> ic,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors

 JN> I just posted to sci.physics and alt.sci.physics.new-theories two papers by
 JN> Mr. Tom E. Bearden (with his permission)
 JN> which appeared in the Proceedings of
 JN> the 26th Intersociety Energy Conversion
 JN> Engineering Conference, August 4-9,
 JN> 1991, Boston, Massachusetts.  They can be found in volume 4 in the section
 JN> entitled 'Advanced Energy Concepts'.  The titles are

Thanks for the source info, Jon!  I didn't see the actual papers on the ParaNet part of this conference -- any possibility of your reposting them?

I've read much of Bearden's earlier work and look forward to seeing him here!  Is he still at the Redstone Arsenal?  Or has he moved on to other projects?

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!news.bbn.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The REPTOIDS Are Coming!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 03:46:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 5

The ROID's are coming! The ROID's are coming!

Maybe we can fight them off with our Preparation H-bomb.

I've always heard these aliens were a pain in the ass.  :-)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!constellation!uokmax!occrsh!fang!att!cbnewsd!cbfsb!cbnewsc!cbnews!cbnews!military
From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: sci.aeronautics,sci.astro,sci.energy,sci.engr,sci.environment,sci.military,sci.misc,sci.skeptic,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Two IECEC Papers by T.E. Bearden posted to sci.physics and a.s.p.n.
Summary: Physics unification theory (with exptl. support) may have, if proven correct, revolutionary impacts on energy, environment, military, aeronautics, space travel, engineering, etc.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 03:35:18 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (william.a.thacker)
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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From [e-mail] (Jon Noring)


I just posted to sci.physics and alt.sci.physics.new-theories two papers by
Mr. Tom E. Bearden (with his permission) which appeared in the Proceedings of
the 26th Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, August 4-9,
1991, Boston, Massachusetts.  They can be found in volume 4 in the section
entitled 'Advanced Energy Concepts'.  The titles are

"Utilizing Scalar Electromagnetics to Tap Vacuum Energy" by Floyd Sweet
and Tom E. Bearden (pp. 370-375)

and

"On a Testable Unification of Electromagnetics, General Relativity, and
Quantum Mechanics" by Tom E. Bearden and Walter Rosenthal (pp. 487-492)


Except for the unsupported conjectures dealing with mind, thought and life,
which bring his results almost into the metaphysical realm, I find these papers
to be very intriguing and compelling.  They deal with a theory (supported by
some experimental evidence that Mr. Bearden will expand upon in the near
future) that, if correct, will have revolutionary impacts on energy,
environment, military, aeronautics, space travel, engineering, etc.  Thus
the posting of this notice to the other associated newsgroups.  You need not
be a physicist to appreciate Mr. Bearden's comments.

As you can see in the "Followup-To:" line, I am directing discussion to
alt.sci.physics.new-theories, since that is the most appropriate place for
discussion.  If your site does not receive a.s.p.n., then let me know, and
I can send you summaries of whatever discussion follows (hopefully a lot).
Of course, if your site doesn't receive a.s.p.n, then ask your sysadmin if
it would be possible to receive it.

BTW, Mr. Bearden is not (yet) on the net, but he has agreed to let me be a
go-between, and I'll try to post his comments on whatever discussion ensues.
If anybody is interested, I do have his phone number and you can call him
for more information and/or clarification.  He'd be happy to talk to you.

I hope you find these papers as intriguing as I have.  If nothing else, it
will help you to firm up your foundation of physics.  Please, let's keep an
open, yet critical mind, and let's not allow the discussion to develop into
a flame war.


Jon Noring


--
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail] | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : [phone]   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  the bushes, and watch." |
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"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average
coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina,
nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 19:37:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
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Nntp-Posting-Host: unix1.tcd.ie

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:

>Hi to all UFO-researchers out there,

If you want UFO observers, sci.skeptic is _not_ the place to be, thank
you very much.

>It shows a lot more of the Cydonia region, where the "face" is located !
>The face measures 1.5 kilometers in diameter. 15 Kilometers west there are
>a few "pyramids" located !!!!
>They are so rectangular and also their shadows are so clearly straight, that
>this hardly can be an optical delusion !
>And also the fact, that they are so close to the face, makes me wonder, if the
>"face" is not an optical delusion at all!

Assuming you _do_ actually pause to think on occasion, idi you ever
pause to wonder why the hell supposed aliens on Mars would spend a lot
of time building a face? Pyramids I could understand, but a face that
could only be seen by space probe or telescope from another planet
sounds a bit stupid.

>And this picture inside the mentioned book must be also another picture, than
>the 2 originals which were posted in the GIF-pic, cause the shadow of the
>face goes into another direction (different deegrees of angle), than the
>shadows on the GIF-pic.

Sorry? This doesn't parse.

>I will post soon the picture from the book in *.JPEG format inside the
>various newsgroups here on the newsnet, so all people could also see the
>"pyramids". But before I would like to see the original pictures from the
>Mars probes, so I can see, how much the picture inside the book was
>enhanced !

If you feel the urge to post the picture, please don't cross-post it to
sci.skeptic, as it has no relevance to what goes on here. Keep in in
alt.alien.visitors, please.

>So, who has a few good ufo sighting video tapes, which could be digitized
>and put to a FTP to share it with the people from the net ?
>You can also email me a contact adress, where I can buy a few .

Why the hell do you insist on putting pointless digitised vieos like
"free energy machine" animations and other such crud on machines for
FTP? It's people like you that cause system administrators to remove
anonymous FTP access from theire machines because of the volume of crap
they receive. Why not start yuor own UFO FTP site, funded from your own
pocket, instead of uploading worthless garbage to other sites?

>So lets find the truth and share it with all interested people.

Presumably, interested people subscribe to alt.alien.visitors.
Subscribing to sci.skeptic does not mean that I am interested in crummy
GIFs of purported alien artefacts.

Finally, why the hell do you think sci.skeptic subscribers have any
interest in aliens when alt.alien.visitors already exists for the
purpose of discussing them? Get a clue about cross-posting.

    -- Bryan

--
"Hell must be isothermal; for           | "Either you are part of the solution or
otherwise the resident engineers and   | you are part of the precipitate."
physical chemists (of which there must | "Consumer-grade religion does not
be some) could set up a heat engine to | encourage logical thinking." -- K.Jones
run a refrigerator to cool off a       +----------------------------------------
portion of their surroundings to any   | Bryan O'Sullivan (Tetragrammaton)   :-)
desired temperature."                  | Internet: [e-mail]
-- Henry Albert Bent, _The Second Law_ | This mind intentionally left blank.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 16:05:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
Lines: 73
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan) writes...
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:
>
>>Hi to all UFO-researchers out there,
>
>If you want UFO observers, sci.skeptic is _not_ the place to be, thank
>you very much.

He addressed UFO-researchers, not observers.
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
Please don't put them all in the same boat.

>
>If you feel the urge to post the picture, please don't cross-post it to
>sci.skeptic, as it has no relevance to what goes on here. Keep in in
>alt.alien.visitors, please.

Why not?  Not everyone has seen the pictures.  Am I to assume that
you can carry on a good _healthy_ skeptical discussion of this subject
without the very items that you so conveniently choose to debunk?

>
>Why the hell do you insist on putting pointless digitised vieos like
>"free energy machine" animations and other such crud on machines for
>FTP?

What do pictures of free energy machines have to do with the Mars "face"?

>It's people like you that cause system administrators to remove
>anonymous FTP access from theire machines because of the volume of crap
>they receive. Why not start yuor own UFO FTP site, funded from your own
>pocket, instead of uploading worthless garbage to other sites?

It's people like you that give skeptics a bad name.  Rather than
rattle on with your own form of self-righteous _dogma_, why don't you
discuss....skeptically and objectively......the mars face?

>Presumably, interested people subscribe to alt.alien.visitors.
>Subscribing to sci.skeptic does not mean that I am interested in crummy
>GIFs of purported alien artefacts.

So, would you mind being more specific?  What exactly _should_ one
discuss on sci.skeptic?

>
>Finally, why the hell do you think sci.skeptic subscribers have any
>interest in aliens when alt.alien.visitors already exists for the
>purpose of discussing them? Get a clue about cross-posting.

Like it or not, your opinion of the Mars face is not the only one.  It is
a subject for debate to many people.  I would think that the best way to
approach this enigmatic object (to some) is with healthy, objective
_skepticism_.

Nothing more, nothing less.

As for cross-posting, put it in your kill file, and you'll never see it.

What exactly do you think cross-posting is for, BTW?

>
>    -- Bryan

Jim Graham

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
| Internet: [e-mail]                              |
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Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!udel!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs49+
From: [e-mail] (Christopher J. Shields)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Various Stuff
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 15:17:06 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 26

1) The Reptoids are coming ?

Gimmie a a break! At least when Lear, Bennewitz et al. espouse this crap
they give a reason why they believe this stuff ( which usually turns out
to be disinfo ) . Randal is giving it to us on what seems to be blind
faith. I guess if enough people tell you 1 in 40 people have inplants
then it must be true. C'mon ! The darkside theories are quite
entertaining but this sounds like arf's crap from alt.conspiracy.


2) If anyone has that real long O.H.Krill file that Lear did ( it was
floating around awhile ago but I missed it ) could you please either
re-post it or e-mail it to me if possible. Thanks.

3) I know I shouldn't do this but I have no choice. In Don Allen's sig.
he mentions something about an Oct.12,1992 meeting with greys in NM. Don
could you please elaborate ?

4) Someone mentioned Hanger 18 a few posts back. I always thought ( and
I could be wrong ) that Hanger 18 was where, back in the 50's, they
first stored and examined recovered bodies of EBE's at Wright-Patterson
in Ohio, not Area 51.

Just my thoughts, all flames by E-mail please,

T.Ler
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The REPTOIDS Are Coming!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 15:09:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>The ROID's are coming! The ROID's are coming!
>
>Maybe we can fight them off with our Preparation H-bomb.
>
>I've always heard these aliens were a pain in the ass.  :-)

Fear not!  The Disgusting E. coli Invaders from Uranus met them in orbit
around Pluto and K-O-pectated them out of the milky way of magnesia!
The Earth is saved!  But oh how it smells...

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!mpifr-bonn.mpg.de!specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de!dfi
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Wanna come to MEPCO'92? Register now!
Keywords: MEPCO 92, Planetary Conference, Violau
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 11:17:14 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Max Planck Institut fuer Radioastronomie
Lines: 62
Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:14642 sci.space:26201 alt.alien.visitors:4265
Nntp-Posting-Host: specklec


                            Second Announcement

   Meeting of European (and International) Planetary and Cometary Observers

                               M E P C O  `92

                        in Violau, Germany (Bavaria)

                    in the International Space Year 1992

                           September 18-21, 1992
  (and no, we're sorry, we CANNOT reshedule the meeting to be compatible with
   the DPS conference in Munich one month later --- but why not come to MEPCO
   first, spend a few weeks in Germany and go to the DPS meeting then ?)

           For ten years we, the Arbeitskreis Planetenbeobachter
        (Working Group of Planetary Observers of Germany), have been
     arranging the Planeten-- und Kometen--Tagung (meeting of Planetary
       and Cometary Observers), which brings together more than 100
         amateur observers from German-speaking regions every year.

          For the first time, in 1992 we invite planet and comet
         observers from  all over Europe and also the rest of the
      world, to open up new European and international perspectives
                     in amateur astronomy as well.

                   Official language will be English.

                                 We offer

      - a unique meeting atmosphere in a beautiful countryside,
                      conference, accomodation and catering in one
                      building, the Bruder-Klaus-Heim with the famous
                      Violau Observatory (see asteroid 3559!),
      - discussions & workshops to foster worldwide contacts and collaboration,
                      papers and posters on observational work and results
                      in different countries,
      - and Proceedings included in the fee.

        The full fee for everything, including all conference papers,
        accomodation and full catering will be only
        DM 200,- (approx. $US 130,- as of Feb. 1992).

        To obtain the registration form, please contact
        Wolfgang Meyer,  Martinstr. 1,  D-(W)1000 Berlin 41,  Germany,
        before 30 April 1991

******* There have already been quite a number of registrations from various
******* west and east European countries, so hurry up if you're interested!

        To register, a pre-payment of DM 100,-  is required that should
        be transferred
        to W.Meyer's post giro account Berlin,
        No. 481488-109 (BLZ 10010010). Please be
        aware that all banking fees must be provided for from your side!

        Very urgent questions (but *not* registrations!) can also be directed
        to Daniel Fischer, by Fax (xx49/228-525-229)
        or Electronic Mail ([e-mail]).

    (BTW, the unusual format arises as this was adapted from a TeX file...)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ihz.compuserve.com!dzecchini
From: [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 16:40:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 43
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26209 sci.skeptic:20162 alt.alien.visitors:4266 alt.paranormal:4324

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:
>
>>I will post soon the picture from the book in *.JPEG format inside the
>>various newsgroups here on the newsnet, so all people could also see the
>>"pyramids". But before I would like to see the original pictures from the
>>Mars probes, so I can see, how much the picture inside the book was
>>enhanced !
>
>If you feel the urge to post the picture, please don't cross-post it to
>sci.skeptic, as it has no relevance to what goes on here. Keep in in
>alt.alien.visitors, please.

Why not?

I mean, I don't mean to sound as if I own the bandwidth here, but it seems
to me that the key question is NOT "Did space aliens build a giant face
to stare at us poor, directionless humans from the surface of Mars" but
rather, simply put, "Does the close-up interpretation of frames 35A72 and
70A13 indicate a structure that MAY not have been naturally formed, or is
this simply a misinterpretation of a low-quality image.

As such, I would think that a "scientific" skeptic would be the best person
to ask on such an interpretation.  I thought skeptics were supposed to
indicate that something was or wasn't true by viewing the FACTS...not
complaining about the subject matter.

Maybe you ought to spend a little less time yelling about the subject, and
a little more time citing your evidence for why a reasonable skeptic would
not think there was a face in the pictures.

Maybe you ought to show close-ups of satellite photos of the Earth, and see
if people mistake natural mountains for such strange things...

My point, if you're a skeptic, why pass up the chance to actually PROVE
something wrong that you see on this thread.

-Be seeing you...
--
         David "Maelstrom" Zecchini | "It may be better to be a live jackal
       [e-mail] | than a dead lion, but it is better still
 [e-mail] | to be a live lion.  And usually easier."
           [e-mail] | -Robert A. Heinlein
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!inqmind!meriadoc
From: [e-mail] (Darryl parker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,misc.headlines,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 04:37:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Inquiring Mind  1 204 488-1607
Lines: 23
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4267 alt.conspiracy:11521 misc.headlines:19882 talk.religion.newage:9019

[e-mail] (Frank A. Pavelski) writes:

> >   wasnt it roddy who said in they live :
> >        "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum....and Im all out of
> >         bubblegum."
> >
> >  it was indeed a weird film
>
>
> YES, Roddy said that, the absoulute best line in the entire movie in
> my opinion.
> --

I just about puked.  Anyway, I felt it was a terrible film and the wrestling
in the alley did nothing for its credibility.  And, regardless of the tatics
used to create it, I did feel a chill as Roddy put on the sunglasses.  I'm
afraid, in that situation, I'd be holding on to an automatic weapon as well.
 Unless of course.......     I"M ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                    Meriadoc-a lone wolf in a frigid land

[e-mail]
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!arromdee
From: [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 19:25:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26220 sci.skeptic:20171 alt.alien.visitors:4268 alt.paranormal:4326

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>Maybe you ought to spend a little less time yelling about the subject, and
>a little more time citing your evidence for why a reasonable skeptic would
>not think there was a face in the pictures.
>
>Maybe you ought to show close-ups of satellite photos of the Earth, and see
>if people mistake natural mountains for such strange things...

Oh come on now.  Are you seriously denying that people see faces in natural
formations on the Earth?
--
This is a new version of the memetic .signature infection.  Now that's an idea.
Copy it into your .signature today!

Kenneth Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: [e-mail])
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!heifetz!fmsrl7!lynx!carina.unm.edu!ee3401cb
From: [e-mail] (Student Class Account)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Various Stuff
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 22:14:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher J. Shields) writes:
>
>2) If anyone has that real long O.H.Krill file that Lear did ( it was
>
I have this file.  One of the things it talks about is a secret
Alien base in the four corners area (NM, AZ, CO, UT) on Archuleta Mesa
near Dulce, NM.  I flew over this site last summer and I didn't see
anything that made me think that there was an alien base on top of the
Mesa.  It kinda made me think that the rest of the file is Bullshit
too, but who knows.

>3) I know I shouldn't do this but I have no choice. In Don Allen's sig.
>he mentions something about an Oct.12,1992 meeting with greys in NM. Don
>could you please elaborate ?

Yes, I have been wondering about that too.  I assume that the meeting
is between a ship that is on the way, and not with some greys that are
already here.  The thought of living right now amongst little grey men
from my home state gives me the heebie jeebies.
>
>4) Someone mentioned Hanger 18 a few posts back. I always thought ( and
>I could be wrong ) that Hanger 18 was where, back in the 50's, they
>first stored and examined recovered bodies of EBE's at Wright-Patterson
>in Ohio, not Area 51.
>
Yeah, that is what I heard too.

>Just my thoughts, all flames by E-mail please,
>T.Ler

Same goes for me.
James
Path: ns-mx!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!udel!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Our History with the Pleiadians
Summary: From Orion to Lyra to Earth to the Pleiades and back again to Earth.
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 23:23:35 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 173


I obtained the following information from several books of Star-Borne
which I looked at during the 11:11 last month. It is about the
Pleiadian group of extraterrestrials, and their history with us. The
Pleiadians are not only trying to teach us certain things, but they
also are growing and have even made their own "mistakes" while
learning in the past, on the way to the spiritual state they are in
today.

--

The story begins when we first entered this third dimensional universe
through the stargate in the belt of Orion. Various solar systems
(including the Orion system itself) were inhabited by various races.
The main race we are concerned with here is one that inhabited the
planet system at Lyra, and are presently known by us as the Lyrians.

With much effort, the Lyrians developed technology and space travel.
However, this being early on in the development of our galaxy, they
were still rather primitive as far as spiritual wisdom goes, and
therefore would often fall into conflicts among themselves, just as we
on Earth have done in our own history. The Lyrians eventually divided
into two groups: those who felt that they should expand militarily and
control as much of the universe as possible, and those who desired
peace and non-interference.

The peace desiring Lyrians eventually left their planet in search of a
different place to settle where there would be no more war (leaving
the original Lyrians to fight among themselves). They searched until
they found an amazingly fertile and uninhabited planet, our Earth.
They settled Earth (after editing their genetic coding so that they
could live in our atmosphere), and redeveloped their technology. This
means that Earth humanity's ultimate ancestors are the Lyrians.

Run away from your problems, and they will follow you until you deal
with them. Unfortunately, the Lyrian-Earthlings hadn't really
eliminated their violent tendencies, and soon fell into fighting among
themselves. Once again, there was a split in the race, and a group of
them emigrated again, leaving to search for *another* planet, where
they could *really* get it right this time, and no longer have
conflict. So this group searched and found a new star system which had
been formed relatively recently, the Pleiades, and settled the various
planets there. Note that this means that we of Earth are technically
the ancestors of the Pleiadians, and not the other way around. The
colonization of new worlds can explain how we and the Pleiadians can
look almost identical, and also how an advanced race can live in a
star system which is relatively new.

These early Pleiadians by now were emotionally messed up, having had
to evacuate their previous home planets twice previously. They
realized that unless they did something different, they would just
fall into conflict again. Therefore, they turned inward, meditating a
great deal and experiencing their inner worlds, starting their
spiritual path. Again, with effort, they redeveloped technology, but
they kept to themselves, and did not fly around the universe. Soon
they were living in such an inner Piscean world, that they began to
lose touch with reality, and had escaped from and became unaware of
external things happening elsewhere in the galaxy.

This was still long ago, and the majority of the galaxy was still in a
spiritually unenlightened state. The other two races, the Earthians
and the original Lryians, were still fighting among themselves (and
therefore kept on destroying their technological efforts, falling
behind the Pleiadians.) However, there was a completely different
race, the Empire of Orion, which was able to grow and gain great
power. This empire had the aim of taking over the galaxy, and were
advancing all over conquering race upon planet. A great galactic war
ensued which was basically the Orions and their henchmen vs. everybody
else. The "everybody else" formed the first confederations among
different planetary races (and it was among these confederations, that
long ago plans for our Earth eventually being a great galactic library
were formed). Our Pleiadians, however, with their heads in the sand,
didn't even know that there was a war going on all around them.

Eventually the Pleiadians woke up to what was going on, and needless
to say were quite distressed. They has supressed the violent instincts
within their subconscious all the way from Lyra, and it wasn't until
now they proceeded to take action. Confronted everywhere with the
conflict that they abhored, they completely threw themselves into the
fight against the advance of the Orions, trying to defeat the Orions
externally, although one could say that in fact they were fighting
against their own internal feelings.

The Orions didn't like this new enemy and fought back against the
Pleiadians. The turning point in the story was when the Orions
destroyed one of the beautiful planets of life in the Pleiades. (This
burned out lifeless planet today still lies in the Pleiadian system
as a reminder to them of their past; although we shouldn't be too hard
on them, after all in *our* solar system we not only demolished but
completely broke apart the planet that used to lie between Mars and
Jupiter, remaining as reminder to us as the asteroid belt, although
that's another story.)

The Pleiadians, having now awakened to their own denials, pretty much
had two choices as to how to proceed. They could overcome their past
by learning about the Orion system, their "enemy". Some actually chose
to incarnate with this group, although needless to say, once one got
in, it was a much more difficult task to obtain spiritual liberation,
although those who were able to do so would obtain a vast amount of
knowledge and experience of how the universe really works.

The second route that the Pleiadians who stayed with their own solar
system took, is the one that concerns we of Earth the most. Now the
Orions' imperial conquests were stopped by the combined efforts of
everyone else, and peace was restored. The defensive groups that had
been formed evolved into the Intergalactic Confederations and the
Brotherhoods in existence today, just as our own United Nations
evolved out of the aftermath of World War II (And as for how Orion
itself has evolved since then is another story.) The Pleiadians were
told that they would have to be in touch with a young evolving
civilization, until that growing civilization reached spiritual
maturity. It was in this way that the Pleiadians hoped to get in touch
with their own negativity, and truly achieve full maturity in their
own right. The civilization that the Pleiadians monitored was, of
course, our Earth, their earlier home.

These events were still thousands of years in the past, and they
marked the beginning of the Pleiadian involvement with our early Earth
civilization. They landed among us in their ships and helped bring
more order and distribute wisdom to those barbaric times. This is why
the Pleiades appear so often in ancient art and in the alignment of
various structures of old civilizations. However, as the Pleiadians
say, we have all at one time abused power, in that it's all part of
the full three dimensional experience. At this time, the Pleiadians
weren't completely free themselves from the lure of power. Also, as
less evolved civilizations tend to do, we of Earth began treating the
Pleiadians as gods, and some of them obliged, taking pride in their
lofty status with us.

Meanwhile, it had been decided long ago that Earth would have a
special role in the galaxy, and was going to play the role of
something like a great galactic library where all the races could
share and store their wisdom. (And some of the earlier fights over
this "prime piece of real estate" can explain how the Pleiadians are
ahead of us even though they originally emigrated from Earth.)
Anyway, as we of Earth began to evolve, the many, many other already
evolved races in the galaxy started taking an interest in Earth, too,
and started their own analysis and landings. The Pleiadian "gods"
didn't like this intrusion, and for a while were even jealous of the
presence of the other systems. The Pleiadians did come face to face
with their own negativity, although not in the way that they expected!

In the years that have passed since this last of many learning
experiences for the Pleiadians, they (along with the Lyrians and many
of the other races) have evolved well beyond that stage of wars or
abusing power. The Pleiadians are a relatively advanced race and have
even helped out their old ancestors, the Lyrians, with certain things.
They are still evolving themselves - they have admitted that to us -
although as we of Earth mature, our Pleiadian siblings are taking an
increasingly active involvement with us. The Intergalactic
Confederations from long ago have since perfectly evolved into part of
the Great White Brotherhood, the Ashtar Command. (Note that other
alien races have played and will be playing major roles in our past
and future; for example the Zeta Reticulans have an important
[positive] place in our future, but that is another story.) One goal
of these great Confederations, of which the Pleiadians are a member,
is to help protect us (although still maintaining the policy of
non-interference) from some of the less mature alien races that are
still out there (although today such races are rather rare) until we
can develop to a point where we can protect ourselves. And unless we
destroy ourselves first, there will come a point where we can talk to
our aliens directly, and become a member of the Confederations
ourselves. That time may not be as far away as we think...

--

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero.org!robert
From: [e-mail] (R. S. Statsinger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 00:41:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Ssaymssik Inc.
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
> [unsubstantiated, unproven, sensationalistic drivel deleted]
>

#     # #     #    #    #######
#  #  # #     #   # #      #
#  #  # #     #  #   #     #
#  #  # ####### #     #    #
#  #  # #     # #######    #
#  #  # #     # #     #    #
 ## ##  #     # #     #    #

 #####  ######     #    ######    ###
#     # #     #   # #   #     #   ###
#       #     #  #   #  #     #   ###
#       ######  #     # ######     #
#       #   #   ####### #
#     # #    #  #     # #         ###
 #####  #     # #     # #         ###


When will someone from the Ashtar Command appear on the Arsenio Hall
show with his/her bag of tricks????

Bob S.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!uflorida!novavax!vaccaro
From: [e-mail] (N. Trafford Vaccaro)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Avatar licensing (was Re: Creating reality)
Summary: Dick Sutphen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 08:22:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4272 talk.religion.newage:9046 sci.skeptic:20182

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeffery Tye) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
>
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now THERE's a name I haven't heard for a while! I had one of his
relaxation tapes and it went something like this:

(lower case = soft, not loud voice)
(upper case = loud, faster paced voice)

"...relax...breathe deeper, deeper, deeper...ALRIGHT NOW THAT YOU ARE
IN A RELAXED STATE..."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Avatar licensing (was Re: Creating reality)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 02:52:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
Lines: 13
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4273 talk.religion.newage:9051 sci.skeptic:20185
NNTP-Posting-Host: pogo.corp.sun.com

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N. Trafford Vaccaro) writes:

>"...relax...breathe deeper, deeper, deeper...ALRIGHT NOW THAT YOU ARE
>IN A RELAXED STATE..."

"Breathe deeply, and relax completely ... and your total attention is now on
the sound of my voice ... completely relaxed, completely relaxed...  loose and
limp, loose and limp..." :)
--
Ed Carp     [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
preferred --^^^^^^^^^^^^^                     415/336-0797 (work)
++ UNIX  SysAdmin, Systems  Programming  Services,  Utilities ++
++ and Programmer Productivity Tools                          ++
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!uniol!tpki.toppoint.de!cybnet!peter
From: [e-mail] (Peter Much)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 21:38:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: CybNet Kassel, Germany
Lines: 35
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4274 talk.religion.newage:9055

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
   (Scott the Great) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
> (Jeffery Tye) says:
> >When we all come to the realization that no one is a victim, that there
> >are just experiences, and that we create our own reality - moment by
> >moment - then people will cease to give over their power to other
> >beings who want to control them.
>
[ eloquent text opposing this thesis deleted ]
>
> Remember, I am posting this because it is what YOU want me to do.  It's
> YOUR reality.  YOU created me.
[ andsoonandsoonandsoon ... ]


Hmmm, not exclusively.
It could also be possible, that you do yet believe in the things
Jeffery offered to you, but do not want others to believe in,
since this would reduce the personal advantage you have over these
others.

Important: This is not intended to be a personal offense against
you, Scott, it is just a funny mind game, which could maybe explain
the generally *heavy* opposition against such theory.

For those curious: I do not believe that mankind has yet reached
qualification which would make such theory applicable, but i think
it is one long term aim of evolution.

Peter
--
Weiterverbreitung mit Quellenangabe frei!
Peter Much, Koelnische Str. 22, 3500 Kassel, 0561/774961 Voice, 775177 Data
[e-mail] | Z-Netz: [e-mail] | [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!rw7.urc.tue.nl!wsadjw
From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Horse E.T.'s proved by Nebula! (was Re: mars-face info ...)
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 08:07:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.space,sci.skeptic
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26260 sci.skeptic:20188 alt.alien.visitors:4275 alt.paranormal:4327

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Zecchini) writes:
>rather, simply put, "Does the close-up interpretation of frames 35A72 and
>70A13 indicate a structure that MAY not have been naturally formed, or is
>this simply a misinterpretation of a low-quality image.
>
>Maybe you ought to show close-ups of satellite photos of the Earth, and see
>if people mistake natural mountains for such strange things...

This Mars face thing is only mildly interesting. I didn't read much of
the thread.  Did anyone mention that if you visit caves with stalactites
and stalagmites, the guide will point out to you numerous formations
that look like something else?  Also, out there in the great void is a
nebula that looks very much like a horse (a horse piece in chess, more
specifically), I believe it's in Orion.  I traveled along the Yang-tze,
and yes, in the rock formations that the boat was slowly passing the guide
pointed out various markings and formations that looked like something
else. Some hero from the Three Kingdoms episode, I believe, and one
outcropping was supposed to look like Kuan-Yin (from a certain angle).

Why are we not hearing more about E.T.'s that put the Horse Nebula there
to signal that Intelligent Life looks like a horse in the greater part of
the Universe (O.K., the Galaxy).

JWN
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.PARANET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Astronomers & Ufos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 05:27:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 38

Recently, I got into a discussion concerning astronomers and UFOs.  Here is
something interesting that I found regarding astronomers and their feelings
about UFOs.  Contrary to what most people might think, there are more of them
who give serious attention to the phenomenon.

This is from 'The Hynek UFO Report,' page 23, Footnote:
--
A recent survey of professional astronomers, ("Report on a Survey of the
Membership of the America Astronomical Society Concerning the UFO Problem,"
P.A. Sturrock.  Report #681, Institute for Plasma Research, Stanford
University, Stanford, CA; January 1977) showed a marked increase in their
interest in the UFO phenomenon.  In answer to one of the twelve questions
submitted to them, asking whether the UFO problem deserved scientific study,
23 percent replied "certainly," 30 percent "probably," 27 percent "possbily,"
17 percent "probably not," and only 3 percent "certainly not."  52 percent of
the questionnaires were returned, comprising 1,356 members of the Society. --

Additionally, Hynek, who was an astronomer himself, and a prominent consultant
to the Air Force's Project Blue Book, formulated a theorem concerning the
scientific community and what he called the "Committee Complex."  This
excerpt is taken from the same book, 'The Hynek UFO Report,' page 24: -- A
scientist will confess in private to interest in a subject  which is
controversial or not scientifically acceptable but generally will not stand
up and be counted when "in committee." --

This theorem was supported by the same study mentioned above.

In my opinion, I feel that this is a highly valid theorem, and sufficiently
explains the lack of serious "main-stream" scientific interest in the subject
of UFOs.  This also ties out very nicely with the decision of the Robertson
Panel of 1953 to use various "celebrities" to "debunk" the UFO phenomena.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!qmw-dcs!mtaylor
From: [e-mail] (Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Area 51, Facility S4?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 19:48:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London
Lines: 18
Nntp-Posting-Host: it063


As I understand it,AREA 51 is a top secret installation at Groom dry lake,used
for testing the stealth bomber,and Lockheed's new replacement for the
SR71,which recently went out of service.
    However,there are widespread rumours,and a certain amout of evidence,that the
site,specifically S4 (a unit within the Groom dry lake complex),has been used
to store,and experiment upon extraterestrial vehicles.
    A scientific ex-employee of S4,spoke at length in the recent release 'Above
Top Secret'by Timothy Good,one of the leading investigators in this field.
    According to him,the government has succeeded in flying,albeit to a limited
degree,these saucers.Furthermore,it seems that they are tracked daily by
NORAD,and labeled ASCs (Alternative Space Craft????).
It does seem,however,that the government is planning to 'come clean' about
it's involvement in this area,in the shape of a large world tour.This circus
like affair,would star a full scale mockup of the shuttle,and would also have
a section on UFOs,including an actual spaceship and alien body.(I would doubt
the 'star' staus of the shuttle in such a display,when compared with such a
revelation).
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!toms
From: [e-mail] (Sluuuurp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Read this Kathy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 92 17:30:12 GMT
Lines: 20


    I just thought I'd save Kathy some time:

    If you want to quote somebody's posting, hit CTRL-Z or whatever
your shell command is, and type "followup" while reading the posting.

        And she's a teacher.  God help us.


    "I'm interested in chaos, disorder - activities that seem
                      to have no meaning... like this."
        -Jim Morrison

    - Thomas James Douglas Morrison Schmidt
      ECMLVDC
    - Light Terminal Operator

            -==Earlham College MoonLight VAX Driving Corps==-
        "Bad craziness, fast terminals, and nothing better to do."

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <1992Feb5.145536.11696@anasaz>
Date: 5 Feb 92 14:55:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 51
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26263 sci.skeptic:20192 alt.alien.visitors:4279 alt.paranormal:4330

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:
]>
]>
]>Hi to all UFO-researchers out there,
]>
]>Recently there was posted a GIF-pic, which shows the so called MARS-face.
]> Yes ,the small GIF-pics I also downloaded here
]>from the various newsgroups, where they were posted in uuencoded format.
]>
]>It was the picture: MARSFACE.GIF with 20715 Bytes.
]>It showed only the "face". Inside the GIF pic, there  are 2 original frames.
]>Frame 35A72 and Frame 70A13 compared in RAW and Enhanced format.
]>But the resolution is only about 100*100 pixel in 256 grey shades!
]>

I've heard rumors about "missing frames" that show something pretty stunning
in this area.  Is there any way to tell if ALL the Cydonia region photos were
released?  Has anyone heard similar rumors?

... stuff deleted ...

>So if You know anbody, maybe DiPietro or Gregory Molenaar, who had introduced
>the pictures to the public, or anybody else at JPL who knows, where the
>original pictues are stored, You might ask them for a copy and put in on any
>FTP Server ?

... more stuff deleted ...

>So lets find the truth and share it with all interested people.
>
YES YES YES.

>By the way, there was the rumour here in the alt.alien.visitors-newsgroup,
>that the probe Phobos II has taken some pictures of an cigar shaped object
>(ufo?), before loosing contact to earth. Does anybody know, if this is true ?
>Has anybody seen the last pictures, Phobos II has sent to Earth ?
>
Again, more missing pictures.  Doesn't ANYBODY have a source?
>--
>
>*******************************************************************************
>*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:                           *
>*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                                            *
>*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79                   *
>*******************************************************************************


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fact or Fiction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 05:40:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William J. Casperson) writes:
>
>>Recently a man in California caught on video two F-16's being swallowed by
>>what appeared to be a UFO.  The man is currently selling the video (Or has
>>sold) to television stations around the world.  Apparently Unsolved
>>Mystries has purchased the video - ??
>
>This is the first I've heard of it.  There have been UFO-related plane
>disappearances before, though.
>
>Please try to keep us informed of any plans to show the video.
>
>>What government agenices are currently investigating UFO crashes etc.
>>What is the agency called that keeps track of all the abductions.
>
>I really don't want to go through all the Cooper stuff right now looking
>for the names.  It's all unsubstantiated anyway.  (Or do you have new
>information?)

This sounds like what happenned in Puerto Rico last year. I believe
that Jorge Martin had some video on this. I'll re-post the articles
on this that I have.

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!olivea!isc-br!tau-ceti!geraldb
From: [e-mail] (Gerald Bryan (Denver))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 14:51:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ?
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Much) writes:
>Important: This is not intended to be a personal offense against
>you, Scott, it is just a funny mind game, which could maybe explain
>the generally *heavy* opposition against such theory.

This has also struck me as being more curious than Tye's ideas:  why are
people so upset by them ?  How much energy would we spend trying to convince
a flat earther that the earth is round ?  Or someone that the earth revolves
around the sun ?  Would we be this bent out of shape if someone were to tell
us that this is really 1892 ?

Why do occasional, random fundamentalist postings generate so much heat ?

There's something in the reaction to be looked at that, to my mind at least,
is much more interesting than the postings themselves.
--
"Believe what you want, but DON'T believe it here" -- Harry Crumb
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Let's create an UFO-GIF-pic FTP site !!!
Summary: ufo gif site
Keywords: ufo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 01:31:14 GMT
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26265 sci.skeptic:20197 alt.alien.visitors:4282 alt.paranormal:4331

Hello to all UFO-researchers out there !

What about a FTP server, which allows us to store GIF or JPEG-pictures from
UFO sightings ??

Also the various MARS "face" and mars "pyramids" pictures could be uploaded
to this site, so that everybody with anonymous FTP access could grab them
from there !

Then we have a common base, not just to talk about events, but to see them !

By the way, Xing Technologies of Arroyo, California has just released their
MPEG animation movie player for windows3.0 ! It's resolution is 320x240x256
in a window. On a 486 PC they get 30 frames per second only with software
decompression. No hardware required !

This opens up a good media, to digitize complete ufo-sighting sequenzes, for
about 30 seconds, which just consume about 1.5 Mbytes of MPEG-data-file size!!

So let me know, where I can get some good ufo-video-tapes and I'll do the
digitized version of it and upload it to the new UFO FTP site, we should
create now !
Any response is welcome.
Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Workshop for decentral energy research


--

*******************************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:                           *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                                            *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79                   *
*******************************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 15:00:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Much)
says:
>Hmmm, not exclusively.
>It could also be possible, that you do yet believe in the things
>Jeffery offered to you, but do not want others to believe in,
>since this would reduce the personal advantage you have over these
>others.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....  You'll ruin my racket and Jeffrey's plan for global
domination.  But seriously, how can anyone trust any of their beliefs when
they all arise from Jeffrey?  He has given us far less free will than even
Yahweh...

>Important: This is not intended to be a personal offense against
>you, Scott, it is just a funny mind game, which could maybe explain
>the generally *heavy* opposition against such theory.

I'm afraid I may be forced to dis-integrate you.  Please stand by...

>For those curious: I do not believe that mankind has yet reached
>qualification which would make such theory applicable, but i think
>it is one long term aim of evolution.

Evolution doesn't have long term aims, it just happens.  It's kind of like
a gigantic genetic algorithm.  It achieves wondrous things using very simple
rules.  If you don't believe me, and I wouldn't believe one of Jeffrey's
creations, read some books by another of Jeffrey's creations, Richard
Dawkins.   Specifically, try reading "The Blind Watchmaker."

>Peter
>--
>Weiterverbreitung mit Quellenangabe frei!
>Peter Much, Koelnische Str. 22, 3500 Kassel, 0561/774961 Voice, 775177 Data
>[e-mail] | Z-Netz: [e-mail] | [e-mail]

Scott
"There is a dark cloud heading towards America, and that dark cloud emanates
 from Rome." - Abraham Lincoln
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From: [e-mail] (Dean C. Gahlon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The REPTOIDS Are Coming!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 92 19:43:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: nms4

Pretty good. You forgot to tie in the Knights Templar, though.

(On the other hand, this thread must not have reached its logical conclusion
yet; you didn't mention the Nazis, either.)

                        Dean C. Gahlon
                        [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spdcc!rdonahue
From: [e-mail] (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The REPTOIDS Are Coming!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 19:15:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: insert anything here
Lines: 7

[e-mail] (Dean C. Gahlon) writes:
>Pretty good. You forgot to tie in the Knights Templar, though.

    Or Elvis... or Gary Coleman for that matter...


BBC
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!walter!porthos!nvuxe!jgn
From: [e-mail] (27126-niederberger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 19:39:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET System Software)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (27126-niederberger,joseph g)
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
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>When we all come to the realization that no one is a victim, that there
>are just experiences, and that we create our own reality - moment by
>moment - then people will cease to give over their power to other
>beings who want to control them. One cannot be victimized unless one
>has a deep seated belief that they are a victim and is willing to play
>that role for the other party.

A man walks into a McDonald's with a semi-automatic weapon and guns down
a dozen or more men, women, and children. The bullets miraculously kill
only to those who were "asking for it" due to their "deep seated
beliefs." Makes sense to me. Now, just what is the poster asking for?

Joe Niederberger
Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!pogo.Corp.Sun.COM!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 20:53:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Much) writes:

>Hmmm, not exclusively.
>It could also be possible, that you do yet believe in the things
>Jeffery offered to you, but do not want others to believe in,
>since this would reduce the personal advantage you have over these
>others.

Hmmm...interesting thought.  Reminds me of what T. Golas wrote:


          The state of mind that most needs enlightenment is the  one
          that  sees  human  beings  as  *needing*  to  be  guided or
          enlightened.

          Every person who allows others to treat him as a  spiritual
          leader  has  the  responsibility to ask himself: Out of all
          the perceptions available to me in the universe, why  am  I
          emphasizing  the ignorance of my brothers?  What am I doing
          in a role where this is real?  What kind of standards am  I
          conceiving,  in  which  so  many  people  are  seen  to  be
          suffering, while *I* am the enlightened one?

          No matter how confused or stupid or unloving other  persons
          may  appear  to  us,  we  have no right ever to assume that
          their consciousness is on a lower level  than  ours.   They
          may be realizing far deeper dimensions of love.  The way we
          see them is an explicit  measure  of  our  own  vibrational
          level.

                        -- Thaddeus Golas,
                           "The Lazy Man's Guide To Enlightenment"
--
Ed Carp     [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
preferred --^^^^^^^^^^^^^                     415/336-0797 (work)
++ UNIX  SysAdmin, Systems  Programming  Services,  Utilities ++
++ and Programmer Productivity Tools                          ++
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: There are no victims! (was Re: Creating reality ...)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 21:49:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4288 talk.religion.newage:9085 sci.skeptic:20219


The local paper "Santa Cruz Senile (er, Sentinel)" has one of those "question
man" features where they ask random people a question and print half a dozen
of the replies, along with photos of the repliers.  A while back the question
was "What have you learned?" and one of the replies was "that no one is a
victim of circumstance."  I assumed at the time he was speaking more or
less as a Libertarian; now I gather from this thread that perhaps he had
something much more metaphysical in mind.
--
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

"Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an Art."
        Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!udel!rochester!rutgers!noao!amethyst!salado!astro.as.arizona.edu!msf
From: [e-mail] (Michael Fulbright)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop Circles
Keywords: ufos-hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 22:33:34 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Operator)
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona
Lines: 7

I have not read or heard much about the crop circles in England for
several months. I last understood that two old men claimed to use a
board/rope device to make some of the circles. Has this been resolved?

thanks
michael fulbright
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Phobos Photos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 14:41:06 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 18

Well it's been a while & here down under no more has been heard of these
alleged Phobos 2 photos Don Ecker had been touting.Claimed to show a
large cylindrical shaped object in photo I saw an image of a long cylinder
shape was seen at the lower middle of the photo also showing Phobos(the
moon).In reply to a post of mine on a.a.v last year Don Ecker mentioned
he hoped to have them publicised more & comprehensively evaluated.The
NASA bods he said he had shown them to had just laughed.Will we all
be let in on the joke or has that old black hole returned.

P.S.I vaguely recall 1 or both Phobos probes were to image that controversial
Martian feature much discussed here on a.a.v.Is this correct or were
thier plans for such imaging by future Soviet(ex) Mars probes?.

***********************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL
************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Various Stuff
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 92 18:51:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The 'Jinky the Fruit Bat' Fan Club
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Student Class Account) writes:
>I have this file.  One of the things it talks about is a secret
>Alien base in the four corners area (NM, AZ, CO, UT) on Archuleta Mesa
>near Dulce, NM.  I flew over this site last summer and I didn't see
>anything that made me think that there was an alien base on top of the
>Mesa.

Actually, the base was *in* the mesa.  I don't remember how much was
allegedly visible from the air (I'd have to look at the Project Beta file.)
But anyway, Bennewitz said that we destroyed that particular base a couple
of years ago, I think.  The DEA supposedly seized the land because the
aliens were manufacturing cocaine.  Anybody know if the DEA has been active
in the area?

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]                 | "They don't tell me
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms         | nothin', so I find
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] | out all I can."
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      |      (Phil Collins)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 09:39:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (R. S. Statsinger) writes:
>When will someone from the Ashtar Command appear on the Arsenio Hall
>show with his/her bag of tricks????
>
>Bob S.

Billy Meier, when hearing from Semjase that she and others from the
Pleiades sometimes dress up in Earth clothes and walk among us, asked
her, smiling, "Well then why won't you have dinner with me sometime?"
Semjase (in serious manner) replied, "that may be possible someday."
Presently, most of us of Earth are too unaware and unenlightened for
our alien friends to be able to appear before us without violating the
principle of non-interference, so we are still a few decades away from
being able to meet with them and the rest of the Ashtar brotherhood in
a physical social setting.

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
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From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians, Crap
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 00:56:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Adelaide, South Australia
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
> I obtained the following information from several books of Star-Borne
> which I looked at during the 11:11 last month. It is about the
>
> The story begins when we first entered this third dimensional universe

First mistake.

> through the stargate in the belt of Orion. Various solar systems
> (including the Orion system itself) were inhabited by various races.
> The main race we are concerned with here is one that inhabited the
> planet system at Lyra, and are presently known by us as the Lyrians.

Why English names?
One wonders if the people writing these know anything about
the galaxy they are living in. Lesson number 1. Stars revolve
around the core of the galaxy.
At the time this story starts, there was not an Orion's belt.
Unless you mean it is now in Orion's belt?

>
> With much effort, the Lyrians developed technology and space travel.
> However, this being early on in the development of our galaxy, they
> were still rather primitive as far as spiritual wisdom goes, and
> therefore would often fall into conflicts among themselves, just as we
> on Earth have done in our own history. The Lyrians eventually divided
> into two groups: those who felt that they should expand militarily and
> control as much of the universe as possible, and those who desired
> peace and non-interference.

Sounds like Vulcan/Romulan history.
Why do these stories always follow the plot of
well known science fiction stories?

>
> The peace desiring Lyrians eventually left their planet in search of a
> different place to settle where there would be no more war (leaving
> the original Lyrians to fight among themselves). They searched until
> they found an amazingly fertile and uninhabited planet, our Earth.
> They settled Earth (after editing their genetic coding so that they
> could live in our atmosphere), and redeveloped their technology. This
> means that Earth humanity's ultimate ancestors are the Lyrians.
>

Present Homo Sapians left Africa around 100,000 years ago.
Lucy was a Lyrian??
How long was the search? Sounds like several billion years. An awfully
long time to be looking for a home. Patient race?

stuff deleted.

> conflict. So this group searched and found a new star system which had
> been formed relatively recently, the Pleiades, and settled the various
> planets there. Note that this means that we of Earth are technically
> the ancestors of the Pleiadians, and not the other way around. The
> colonization of new worlds can explain how we and the Pleiadians can
> look almost identical, and also how an advanced race can live in a
> star system which is relatively new.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Pleiades were
blue giants. I'm trying to visualise the H-R diagram and
if I am correct, blue giants are off the main sequence, ie
old. This is an old memory, so may be incorrect.
So, formed recently compared to what?

You time sequence is way out. Early galactic history was
well before the earth was formed.

>
> These early Pleiadians by now were emotionally messed up, having had
> to evacuate their previous home planets twice previously. They

How easy the term `evacuate the home planet' slips off the tounge.

> spiritually unenlightened state. The other two races, the Earthians
> and the original Lryians, were still fighting among themselves (and
> therefore kept on destroying their technological efforts, falling
> behind the Pleiadians.) However, there was a completely different

I have it now, this is based on E.E.`Doc' Smith's Lensman series.
Don't give up your day job.

> race, the Empire of Orion, which was able to grow and gain great
> power. This empire had the aim of taking over the galaxy, and were

This bit is from James Blish's Cities in Flight series.

Lots of stuff deleted.

> on them, after all in *our* solar system we not only demolished but
> completely broke apart the planet that used to lie between Mars and
> Jupiter, remaining as reminder to us as the asteroid belt, although
> that's another story.)

I cannot wait for this one!

Stuff deleted.

> itself has evolved since then is another story.) The Pleiadians were
> told that they would have to be in touch with a young evolving
> civilization, until that growing civilization reached spiritual
> maturity. It was in this way that the Pleiadians hoped to get in touch
> with their own negativity, and truly achieve full maturity in their

By this time the Pleiadians are several billion years old.
Bloody stupid race if they are this backward after so long a time.

> own right. The civilization that the Pleiadians monitored was, of
> course, our Earth, their earlier home.

This is from Julian May's Intervention.

>
> Meanwhile, it had been decided long ago that Earth would have a
> special role in the galaxy, and was going to play the role of
> something like a great galactic library where all the races could

Why do people believe we are special?
The library bit is from Gordan R Dickson's Childe Cycle.

> -|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
> |     Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     |     [e-mail]     |
> -|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

This is either a sad indication of the American education system,
or the most brilliant parody I have ever read.

You know, reading this while listening to Sibelius has been
strangely appropriate. Oh well, reality beckons.

Iain.
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From: [e-mail] (Juergen Behse)
Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: re: mars-face lecture by DiPietro,open questions!
Summary: mars-face
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <behse.697440711@tubue>
Date: 7 Feb 92 05:31:51 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News  Manager)
Distribution: tub
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
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Xref: ns-mx sci.space:26306 alt.alien.visitors:4294 alt.paranormal:4336


References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>


>Speaking of horses, on Monday I heard a lecture about the "Face
>on Mars" from the horses mouth: Vincent DiPietro, who apparently
>is the discoverer of the "face" and works here at NASA's Goddard
>Space Flight Center. He has published a book describing his
>image-enhancement work on these features. The book is called
>"Unusual Mars Surface Features," and, interestingly enough, the
>Goddard technical library doesn't have it.

Do You know, if DiPietro can be reached by email or by fax ?


>DiPietro filled the 500-seat auditorium here for his smoothly-
>delivered, slide-filled presentation. The "face" is a single
>feature about a mile across, which, with moderate enhancement,
>looks like a huge human face partially covered by soil
>deposition subsequent to its creation. Some distance away is a
>pyramid-shaped block. For my money, it's the pyramid that's the
>most artifice-like. The face, as a couple of others in this
>newsgroup have pointed out, is just one of those features, like
>the Horse Head Nebula or the "Old Man in the Mountain," that, by
>chance, resemble something else more familiar to us.

Yes,yes, the pyramids are more stunning, than any "face", cause they are so
rectangular and the "face" also could be some special craters good illuminated.
But because the "face" is only 15 kilometers away from the pyramids, who knows?



>At any rate, DePietro didn't =say= that he thought these features
>were created by intelligent beings. An therefore, of course, he
>wasn't obligated to mention more conventional, geologic
>interpretations that, I assume, must have been advanced for
>these features...and he didn't mention them. He did cite other
>articles he has written, particularly "The Cydonian Hypothesis,"
>in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, where, I suspect, he
>is more explicit.

>What he wanted to do on this occasion, I think, became clear
>toward the end. He pointed out that whatever mystery there was
>here could be resolved by higher-resolution pictures...by,
>perhaps, a manned expedition to Mars! As slides showed
>poster-like exhortations such as "SEND MEN TO MARS," he
>addressed NASA chief (Adm. Truly ) rhetorically, to the effect
>that "YOU can be the one to get us there..." A great rehearsal
>for something that would play well to Congress and the public...

Which pictures did he show ????

Only frame 35A72 and 70A13 ??? (the posted low resolution GIF-pics here on the
net)
Inside the book: Live on Mars, by Johannes von Buttlar, there was on page 137
the claim, that in january of 1987 DiPietro should already have been processing
another "face"-picture from the Utopia-region of the Mars.
Did he show this picture too ??

And there was stated inside the mentioned book,
that there is the rumour at NASA,
that there are 10 additionally "faces" on Mars. (Many pictures are not yet
released by NASA, still 240.000 pictures should be lying unevaluated inside the
archive of the National Space Science Data Center in Greenbelt,Maryland.)

Also there is the pictures 4212-15 which was labelled: "inka-city" by the NASA,
which shows rectangular symmetrical blocks of stone ! Could this be done by
normal mars wheather or stone erosion ???

By the way, why is put now so much money on a new MARS-Observer probe, when
there are 240.000 pictures are left unevaluated in the archive ??
Okay, the new Mars-observer might have a higher resolution and I'm already
very interested what the pictures will show, but will most of them again
be covered from the public and putting to sleep inside an archive ???
Questions that should be solved.

-Stefan Hartmann, c/o workshop for decentral energy research
email to: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!mott!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 00:44:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Ace Manufacturing Company
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>I obtained the following information from several books of Star-Borne
>which I looked at during the 11:11 last month. It is about the

True story:
I was on jury duty in downtown LA last month, and during the lunch
break I was strolling around when it occurred to me that the
"activation" these whackos have been talking about was scheduled
for that particular day.  A moment later I glanced at a mailbox
upon which the following graffiti had been scrawled:

     "ASHTAR IS ALIVE AND WELL!"

Kinda freaky, huh?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!adena.cis.ohio-state.edu!boehm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Boehm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 15:43:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>Run away from your problems, and they will follow you until you deal
>with them. Unfortunately, the Lyrian-Earthlings hadn't really
>eliminated their violent tendencies, and soon fell into fighting among
>themselves. Once again, there was a split in the race, and a group of
>them emigrated again, leaving to search for *another* planet, where
>they could *really* get it right this time, and no longer have
>conflict. So this group searched and found a new star system which had
>been formed relatively recently, the Pleiades, and settled the various
>planets there. Note that this means that we of Earth are technically
>the ancestors of the Pleiadians, and not the other way around. The
>colonization of new worlds can explain how we and the Pleiadians can
>look almost identical, and also how an advanced race can live in a
>star system which is relatively new.

So your saying that the Lyrian-Earthlings inhabited earth for a long enough
period to fall back into the violent ways.  Generations??  Yet they still had
the technology to leave Earth when they split.  So advanced technology had to
exist on Earth for quite a while.  Where is the fossil evidence??  What
happened to make the ones who remained on Earth lose touch with that
technology.

>
>These early Pleiadians by now were emotionally messed up, having had
>to evacuate their previous home planets twice previously. They
>realized that unless they did something different, they would just
>fall into conflict again. Therefore, they turned inward, meditating a
>great deal and experiencing their inner worlds, starting their
>spiritual path.

They also grew pointy ears and their blood turned green :-)

>Again, with effort, they redeveloped technology,

redevelope technology??  These people had the ability to leave Earth and
colonize another planet, yet they have to "redevelope technolgy".



[the rest deleted]- I can only deal with these startling revelations a little
at a time :-)


Joe [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Drew Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,rec.arts.movies
Subject: THEY LIVE!!! (was Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 15:14:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Spoilers for THEY LIVE (I suppose):


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Darryl parker) writes:
>[e-mail] (Frank A. Pavelski) writes:
>> >   wasnt it roddy who said in they live :
>> >        "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum....and Im all out of
>> >         bubblegum."
>>
>> YES, Roddy said that, the absoulute best line in the entire movie in
>> my opinion.

The best line for me was "Life's a bitch... and she's in heat again."

>I just about puked.  Anyway, I felt it was a terrible film and the wrestling
>in the alley did nothing for its credibility.

Yeah the 20-minute fistfight scene was really moronic.  Especially because
they weren't fighting over anything important ("Put on the glasses!  No!").
When I get that movie on tape I'm gonna edit that scene out.

>And, regardless of the tatics
>used to create it, I did feel a chill as Roddy put on the sunglasses.  I'm
>afraid, in that situation, I'd be holding on to an automatic weapon as well.

I'd give THEY LIVE a 10 out of 10 for concept, and a 6.5 out of 10 for
execution.

One problem with the concept was this:  The glasses let people see the
"subliminal" messages everywhere.  But they also let people see the aliens
true faces.  My question is:  does this mean that the aliens wanted the
earthlings to subliminally see their true faces?  Maybe the glasses worked
on two different "frequencies" simultaneously; one for the messages like
"NO INDEPENDENT THOUGHT" and one for the aliens faces.

Nifty movie anyway.

Drew
--
Drew Davidson        \\     HELP FULLY INFORM JURORS!  TELL YOUR FRIENDS:
[e-mail]   \\    As a juror, you have the right to vote NOT GUILTY
 ** LEGALIZE TRUTH **  \\   if you believe the law broken is unjust or wrongly
* FULLY INFORM JURORS * \\  applied, regardless of the facts of the case.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ogicse!milton!jeon
From: [e-mail] (Sangyong Jeon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Self-limiting beliefs (was Re: There are no victims!)
Keywords: logic
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 07:29:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:4298 talk.religion.newage:9118 sci.skeptic:20254

I watched with some interest the fight on this point.
Let me point out two things.

First, whenever one says 'every' or 'all' one must be very careful what are
referred as 'all'. Otherwise, it is like saying

Every rule has exceptions.

Readers may recognize this as Russell's paradox or the heart of
Goedel's theorem in Mathematics.
The futility of refering to the absolute had  already been recognized in India
some three thousand years ago. Thus the minute the generalization
of '(absolutely) no victim' was made and said the discussion has been doomed
for or against.
It does not mean that discussions are pointless. It just means that to have a
debate, both parties must define and understand what is under the debate and
what axioms are common and what axioms are different
and must be careful not to step out of the logical system by grossly
generalizing or misusing terms. Especially every day words like
reality, victim, life or spirit.
I can give some more examples and analogies if anybody is interested.

Second, transcendence is neither ignorance or denial.
To transcend emotion, one must master and understand every aspect of it.
To transcend logic, one must master logic. One cannot transcend something
one does not understand.
If you are asked a logical question, you must answer logically.
If you are asked evidence, you must give it.
In addition, analogies are all fine, but one must remember that it is just
an analogy and never the truth.
So when asked logically, one better not answer in riddle or analogy.
Otherwise, there is no point in saying anything,
communicating and convincing others other than  to transmit hatred.

And don't hate logic, please.
Logic has not yet failed in any human endeaver.
Axioms may change, systems may vary, but it has not failed us.
I find it very ironical that this debate has been carreid out in a
computer network - which is based entirely of the trust in logic and hard
science that requires evidence and proof.

Logically speaking, one cannot adapt one logical system just partially.
If I may be forgiven using an analogy, one cannot accept only things s/he
likes from the Classical system and accept something else s\he likes
from Riemannian system
to get a consistent logical system. It does not work that way.
You are using a computer system right now. Ask yourself why and if it is
compatible with your belief (logical system, axioms).
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!hotcity!kirkm
From: [e-mail] (Kirk Marcroft)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 09:50:15 GMT
References: <1992Feb5.145536.11696@anasaz>
Organization: BBS
Lines: 5

I remember see the photo when it came out. I can't say I've herd any thing
about patch work on the photo though (not that I wouldn't put it past them).
My point is the Russian probe was out there ,before it decided to stop working
(punn intended!) so the Russian's may still have some interesting photo's yet
Wookie
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From: [e-mail] (Patrick Brosnan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 13:15:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System Administration)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Patrick Brosnan)
Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>I obtained the following information from several books of Star-Borne
>which I looked at during the 11:11 last month...

Hi Walter,
    I enjoyed your post but doesn't Solara herself claim in "The Starborne"
that the Pleiadian High Command has been "infiltrated" ? I forget the details
and I don't have the book with me.

    Pat
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!aero.org!robert
From: [e-mail] (R. S. Statsinger)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our History with the Pleiadians
Keywords: Orion, Pleiadians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 18:02:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
|
|Billy Meier, when hearing from Semjase that she and others from the
|Pleiades sometimes dress up in Earth clothes and walk among us, asked
|her, smiling, "Well then why won't you have dinner with me sometime?"
|Semjase (in serious manner) replied, "that may be possible someday."
|Presently, most of us of Earth are too unaware and unenlightened for
|our alien friends to be able to appear before us without violating the
|principle of non-interference, so we are still a few decades away from
|being able to meet with them and the rest of the Ashtar brotherhood in
|a physical social setting.
|

Oh, well how conVEEEEEEENient. The claim of "non-interference"
used to justify a lack of authenticatability. Gee, why does that sound
so familiar? This whole thing was Werner Erhardt's idea, right? Or
L. Ron Hubbard?

It is an absolute outrage that UFOlogy is touted as science when
it is only some crackpot religion.

Bob S., who DESPERATELY wants to believe, but can't find any proof....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!ijameson
From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message From The Pleiades
Keywords: Pleiadian friends, Canadian Rock Bands
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 22:29:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Nntp-Posting-Host: adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
> "From the constellation of the Pleiades
>  Come a race of people strong and wise
>  From the children of the Seven Sisters
>  Come glowing discs that light up our skies
>
>  Across the many light years they have traveled
>  To bring a message to the men of Earth
>  Of life among the stars akin to mankind
>  And of the universal law of common birth
>
etc.

Don't tell me.

Lyrics by Rush.
From `A Farewell to Kings'
Right?

Oh dear, I feel the need to listen to Sibelius again.
I wonder what the connection is? Maybe he was an alien.
Maybe Finland is an alien enclave. Wow.

Iain.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!billoj
From: [e-mail] (Jeremy Louis Billones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: THEY LIVE!!! (was Re: Grey Aliens sighted .... again)
Message-ID: <g#[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 92 00:06:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu

[e-mail] (Drew Davidson) writes:
>Yeah the 20-minute fistfight scene was really moronic.  Especially because
>they weren't fighting over anything important ("Put on the glasses!  No!").

Actually, it was only 7 minutes.  Yes, we timed it.

Jeremy Billones     [e-mail]  or  [e-mail]
"We bust through the door, surprise 'em, and blow their brains out."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!lobster!nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!katin
From: [e-mail] (Kati Norris)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: mars-face info why it might be no optical delusion!
Keywords: mars face
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 18:56:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098
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[e-mail] (Ken Arromdee) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> >Maybe you ought to spend a little less time yelling about the subject, and
> >a little more time citing your evidence for why a reasonable skeptic would
> >not think there was a face in the pictures.
> >
> >Maybe you ought to show close-ups of satellite photos of the Earth, and see
> >if people mistake natural mountains for such strange things...
>
> Oh come on now.  Are you seriously denying that people see faces in natural
> formations on the Earth?
> --
It is difficult to see anything in the formations of Earth, simply because
of the water and clouds obscurring the view. But people of Earth have seen
many different things, such as a man's face, a woman, or a rabbit in the
moon.
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

          xcluud!glnserv!katin  =*=   Kati Norris; Houston, Texas USA

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Path: ns-mx!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!netcomsv!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Astronomers & Ufos
Summary: They don't Buy it: Astronomers are the Skeptic's Best Friends!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 23:01:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
>This is from 'The Hynek UFO Report,' page 23, Footnote:
>--
>A recent survey of professional astronomers, ("Report on a Survey of the

>interest in the UFO phenomenon.  In answer to one of the twelve questions
>submitted to them, asking whether the UFO problem deserved scientific study,
>23 percent replied "certainly," 30 percent "probably," 27 percent "possbily,"
>17 percent "probably not," and only 3 percent "certainly not."  52 percent of
>the questionnaires were returned, comprising 1,356 members of the Society. --

Yes. And if you had asked these same astronomers whether sexual perversions
among rattlesnakes "deserved scientific study", you would probably have
gotten an even GREATER percentage of favorable responses. Sure, EVERYTHING
"deserves scientific study", even if it might be a delusion, and especially
if the cost is "free".

A better question to put to astronomers would be: "How much of the money
currently being spent doing conventional research on astronomy should
be shifted to study UFOs ( answer from 0 to 100)". Then ask, "What percentage
of your own time do you think should be spent studying UFO reports?"
The non-zero answers, if any, would be distressingly small.


>
>scientist will confess in private to interest in a subject  which is
>controversial or not scientifically acceptable but generally will not stand
>up and be counted when "in committee." --
>
This may have been a rationalization on Hynek's part. It may also
have been many astronomers' polite way of telling Hynek to get lost.
("Poor old J. Allen. Looks like he's finally gone 'round the bend'!")

As a skeptic, I have met *many* astronomers, and almost without
exception they express profound appreciation to us skeptics for our
efforts to educate the public about UFOs. Astronomers who deal with
the public in planetariums and schools are understandably upset when,
at the close of a carefully-composed lecture on some aspect of
astronomy, they are repeatedly badgered with idiotic questions
about Astrology and UFOs. There *is* something like 1% of astronomers who
take UFOs seriously, but the other 99% strongly
supports the work of CSICOP and the other skeptical organizations.
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Simply follow nature, Rousseau declares. Sade, laughing,
        grimly agrees."          - Camille Paglia, "Sexual Personae"
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Astronomers & Ufos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 16:10:00 GMT
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 > Yes. And if you had asked these same astronomers whether sexual
 > perversions
 > among rattlesnakes "deserved scientific study", you would probably have
 > gotten an even GREATER percentage of favorable responses. Sure,
 > EVERYTHING
 > "deserves scientific study", even if it might be a delusion, and
 > especially
 > if the cost is "free".

Sexual perversion of rattlesnakes does not pertain to astronomy, therefore it
is an invalid question.  :-)  The finding of "delusion" can only be arrived at
after the scientific study has been accomplished.

 > A better question to put to astronomers would be: "How much of the money
 >
 > currently being spent doing conventional research on astronomy should
 > be shifted to study UFOs ( answer from 0 to 100)". Then ask, "What
 > percentage
 > of your own time do you think should be spent studying UFO reports?"
 > The non-zero answers, if any, would be distressingly small.

This question does not have any relevance at all, and would be assure a
negative answer.  Why not:  Do you feel that a study of this subject should be
done, or should money be spent on the study?

 > This may have been a rationalization on Hynek's part. It may also
 > have been many astronomers' polite way of telling Hynek to get lost.
 > ("Poor old J. Allen. Looks like he's finally gone 'round the bend'!")

I'm afraid that this is a valid rationalization.  I have tested this
personally, and some day will present the results of my independent study.
The evidence is all too real, and somewhat apparent.

 > As a skeptic, I have met *many* astronomers, and almost without
 > exception they express profound appreciation to us skeptics for our
 > efforts to educate the public about UFOs. Astronomers who deal with
 > the public in planetariums and schools are understandably upset when,
 > at the close of a carefully-composed lecture on some aspect of
 > astronomy, they are repeatedly badgered with idiotic questions
 > about Astrology and UFOs. There *is* something like 1% of astronomers
 > who
 > take UFOs seriously, but the other 99% strongly
 > supports the work of CSICOP and the other skeptical organizations.

Your paragraph here is interesting from the standpoint that it suggests
statistics, but nothing to support them.  What does astrology have to do with
UFOs in this context of the post?  I did not suggest that Hynek nor myself
were connecting astrology with UFOs.  Perhaps you would find those same
astronomers more helpful if there were not questions relating astrology with
UFOs, instead just UFOs?

I work with an astronomer at a planetarium and have found that there is a
fascination with the scientific aspect of the subject.  Furthermore, *I* am a
skeptic, but do not support the viewpoints of such groups as CSICOP.  As a
matter of fact, I have attended various skeptic groups and have found them
almost as fanatical in their "religion" as the extreme "believers" on the
other side of the coin.  Actually, I found them almost rabid at times.  It is
vitally important that skepticism remain skepticism in that we "should have an
open mind, but not as open as, say, a refuse can."  -Joe Nickell.

I would love to debate this further with you Robert.  Looking forward to your
comments.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!csn!scicom!paranet!f10.n245.z2.FIDONET.ORG!Marc.Mueller
From: [e-mail] (Marc Mueller)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Grey Aliens sighted .... again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 92 19:59:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:245/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
Lines: 23

Hallo David!

In a msg of <31 Jan 92>, David Jones writes to All:

 DJ>     Last Tuesday evening, KSBW, Channel 8 TV, in Salinas, CA, reported
 DJ>     that a dozen people saw several extraterrestrial spacecraft
 DJ> outside of Paso Robles, CA, towards the area of San Louis Obispo.  One
 DJ> of the craft landed and a couple of grey aliens got out and walked
 DJ> around, returned to their craft, and then flew off.
 DJ>     Why wasn't this historic occasion reported internationally?
 DJ>     Extraterrestrials are here!  Why the coverup?  Why does the
 DJ> national news media have their heads in the sand?  We need to know the
 DJ> truth, NOW!

Did you read the document "MJ-12" from Cooper? Very interesting, but I can't belive all of this. Some of MJ-12, the theory of the greys and the connections between CIA and international drugs mafia (Cooper says, CIA is the drugs mafia) to finance the grey-alien-bases in New Mexico and Nevada are possible.

PS: The Cooper-document is from may 23,1989


--
Marc Mueller - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csd1227
From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop Circles
Keywords: ufos-hoax
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 92 03:04:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Minnesota
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Fulbright) writes:
>I have not read or heard much about the crop circles in England for
>several months. I last understood that two old men claimed to use a
>board/rope device to make some of the circles. Has this been resolved?

I don't believe that much if any of Great Britain has a growing season in
the winter.  The old men with the board probably waited until the end of
the growing season so that they wouldn't have to face continuing crop
circle formations while their story was told.  People who seem to understand
the physical nature of the circles are not fooled by the circles made by
boards.  It does make it obvious that we can't take circles for "real" unless
they are thorougly tested by experienced, qualified researchers.
It will be interesting to see the rate of circle formations next year.
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From: [e-mail] (Sluuuurp)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: There are no victims!  (was Re: Creating real
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 92 10:14:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Distribution: usa
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:9148 alt.alien.visitors:4309

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
> Joe Mastroianni writes:  "Wine, sex, food, movies, books,
> the moment of fully understanding what has been ith us all along
> but never perceived...."
>
>
> Ahhhhhhh.....yes  :-)  I totally concur with your line of thought/
> thinking/viewing/perceiving.
>
> Regarding all the battling for the centuries over religions and
> dogma:  My own feeling is that it is because the ego and its'
> beliefs are attached to a person's identity.  When this attachment
> is broken (through whatever means of inner work the person uses)
> then an opening for tolerance and wisdom can commence.
>
> Good post, Joe...very good.
>
> Kathy
    After I posted an article giving Kathy here instructions on how to
do a followup, she persists in her habit of writing out whatever she has
to say.  This seem slike a sure sign of stubborness to me, and, as anyone
knows, obstinance is a function of ego.  Another little contradiction
implicit in this post is the fact that it was pulled out of
talk.religion.newage and placed here as if Kathy felt that showing that
there is someone out there as bimbonic as herself would show us something.
 Furthermore, that last line...  stroking Joe's ego after praising him for
not having one?
    And, as a teacher should be aware, the abbreviation for 'it is' is
"it's", not "its'."  But now I'm nitpicking.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
From: [e-mail] (JIM GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Astronomers & Ufos
Summary: They don't Buy it: Astronomers are the Skeptic's Best Friends!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 92 03:58:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>>
>>This is from 'The Hynek UFO Report,' page 23, Footnote:
>>--
>>A recent survey of professional astronomers, ("Report on a Survey of the
>
>>interest in the UFO phenomenon.  In answer to one of the twelve questions
>>submitted to them, asking whether the UFO problem deserved scientific study,
>>23 percent replied "certainly," 30 percent "probably," 27 percent "possbily,"
>>17 percent "probably not," and only 3 percent "certainly not."  52 percent of
>>the questionnaires were returned, comprising 1,356 members of the Society. --
>
>Yes. And if you had asked these same astronomers whether sexual perversions
>among rattlesnakes "deserved scientific study", you would probably have
>gotten an even GREATER percentage of favorable responses. Sure, EVERYTHING
>"deserves scientific study", even if it might be a delusion, and especially
>if the cost is "free".

This is a straw man.  The question was to the point, and so were the answers.

Sure, they might have also agreed that the sex-lives of rattlesnakes deserved
scientific study, but that wasn't the issue, was it?

BTW: Would you agree that a study of the sexual perversions of rattlesnakes
"might be a delusion".  Would you agree that a search for black holes
"might be a delusion"?

You see, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that people have actually
directly _observed_ unidentified flying objects.

The same cannot be said for black holes, can it?

Come to think of it, have you ever actually _seen_ an electron?

>
>A better question to put to astronomers would be: "How much of the money
>currently being spent doing conventional research on astronomy should
>be shifted to study UFOs ( answer from 0 to 100)". Then ask, "What percentage
>of your own time do you think should be spent studying UFO reports?"
>The non-zero answers, if any, would be distressingly small.
>
>
>>
>>scientist will confess in private to interest in a subject  which is
>>controversial or not scientifically acceptable but generally will not stand
>>up and be counted when "in committee." --
>>
>This may have been a rationalization on Hynek's part. It may also
>have been many astronomers' polite way of telling Hynek to get lost.
>("Poor old J. Allen. Looks like he's finally gone 'round the bend'!")

Perhaps.  Or maybe a third possibility...those scientists weren't immune
to peer pressure either.

In fact, we'll never know, so why bring it up?

>As a skeptic, I have met *many* astronomers, and almost without
>exception they express profound appreciation to us skeptics for our
>efforts to educate the public about UFOs. Astronomers who deal with
>the public in planetariums and schools are understandably upset when,
>at the close of a carefully-composed lecture on some aspect of
>astronomy, they are repeatedly badgered with idiotic questions
>about Astrology and UFOs.

What are some examples of these "idiotic questions about UFOs"?

>There *is* something like 1% of astronomers who
>take UFOs seriously, but the other 99% strongly
>supports the work of CSICOP and the other skeptical organizations.

What exactly do you mean when you say "...tak UFOs seriously"?

>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

Jim Graham

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
 ______________________________________________________________________
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Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Book: Cry of the Phoenix - part 6/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:33:04 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 567



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 6 <<=============================



Topic: FIRST BIG WHITE HORSE WITH HORSEMAN OF REVELATIONS- Chap 7



I  shall  attempt  to cover the subject with a bit less wordiness
than yesterday lest I lose my scribe---a repeat of four hours  of
work makes a secretary less than overjoyed.

Well, let's see, there were letters written to the "Churches" and
then came  the  visions.    There  were  all  sorts of things but
predominantly in the beginning there was  a  "scroll"  with  many
"seals". We shall look at them.

Understand a most important point at the start--it was "The Lamb"
who  was  the  only  one  found  worthy  to  open  the scroll and
seals--therefore it is clue number one (I  like  puzzles)--it  is
not  likely  that "The Lamb" (Christ being) would be on the first
horse--nor would that fit into the story very well.

No, the first rider was not the Christ being.   The  first  horse
was  the  old  evil one himself--that one you dub Satan. Actually
God labelled  him  Satan  when  He  tossed  Lucifer  out  on  his
proverbial ear.    He, like Christ and God Father/Mother Creator,
is  pronounced  in   many   ways   to   suit   the   culture   or
language---don't  be further deceived, it is the Head Evil Honcho
himself---The King Deceiver.

The first horse is white to deceive and the first  rider  is  but
one aspect of evil--for the whole of the four are Satanic--but we
will get  on  with  that.    Remember  that  one of the strongest
historical indictments  of  Satan  is  that  he  is  a  deceiver,
implacably  opposed  to  the truth of God. He was a murderer from
the beginning, not holding to truth, for there  is  no  truth  in
him.

You who wish to "BE" and recognize not "good" (God-ness) and evil
had  best  be  thinking  again--I  further  refer you to the book
SATAN'S DRUMMERS by  the  Christed  One  Himself  (one  of  these
Phoenix Journals). There is evil and you are in it.

A worldwide battle rages between forces of God and Satan, between
light and darkness, between good and evil.  Evil stalks the earth
seeking  to  dominate  and to destroy God's creation--and doing a
remarkably efficient job of it--and  at  the  same  time  Creator
works to save that which He has created.

WELL,  OLD HATONN IS NOT HERE TO GIVE YOU YOUR BEDTIME LESSONS IN
BAD AND GOOD. I AM COME TO TELL YOU THAT IT MATTERS NOT WHICH YOU
CHOOSE. YOU WILL BE PLACED ACCORDING TO THAT  WHICH  YOU  CHOOSE,
HOWEVER.  WHEN  THE  TIME  IS  COME, THE PLANET WILL SHIFT ON HER
POLES AND FOR  YOUR  PRACTICAL  PURPOSES  IT  WILL  BE  ALL  OVER
INCLUDING THE WEEPING.

YOU  WHO  HAVE CHOSEN THE PATH HOME TO THE HIGHER REALMS AND HAVE
LIVED OR TURN UNTO THE LAWS OF CREATION, BALANCE AND HARMONY WITH
CREATOR SHALL BE LIFTED UP INTO VERY CAREFULLY PREPARED SHIPS  OF
LIGHT---SILVER SPACE CRAFT --SORRY, NO FLUFFY WHITE CLOUDS!

THOSE  WHO CHOOSE THE PATH OF EARTH WAY ABOUT YOU SHALL MOVE INTO
PLACES ALSO PREPARED FOR YOU--BUT IT  SURELY  WON'T  BE  HOME  TO
CREATOR  AS  YOU  THINK  IT  WILL  BE. FURTHER, NO ONE FROM THESE
REALMS WILL TWIST YOUR ARM. IT IS MOST  SIMPLE  INDEED--YOU  WILL
ASK  FOR  AND  ACCEPT  THE RIDE OFF THAT PLACEMENT OR YOU WILL BE
LEFT STANDING IN THE MESS--PURELY  AND  SIMPLY  UP  TO  YOU.  THE
PLANET IS GOING TO REBALANCE, REBIRTH AND BE CLEANSED AND YOU ARE
INTO YEAR THREE (3) OF THE PROCESS---WELL UNDER-WAY!

AS  I  GO  THROUGH THESE NEXT VERSES--PAY ATTENTION AND RELATE TO
THOSE THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU IN  THE  PREVIOUS
JOURNALS--AND THEN RELATE THEM TO THE ONE IN PREPARATION FROM THE
ANCIENT  OF ANCIENTS--THE ORAL TEACHINGS AND LAWS OF THE ANCIENTS
WHICH WILL BE LABELED THE SACRED HILL WITHIN AND SHALL COME FORTH
IN, PROBABLY, FOUR VOLUMES AND MADE AVAILABLE THROUGH  THIS  SAME
RESOURCE  ALONG  WITH THESE PHOENIX/QUETZEL/THUNDERBIRD JOURNALS.
IT WILL BE FROM VOICE (ORAL)  PRONOUNCEMENT  THROUGH  THE  CHOSEN
MESSENGER OF THE ANCIENT OF ANCIENTS AND THIS SCRIBE SHALL PUT IT
ONTO  THE PRINTED PAGE TO BE BROUGHT FORTH AS ARE THESE JOURNALS.
SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO DISCIPLINE HERSELF  TO  THE  LONG  HOURS  OF
DIRECT RECEIVING. THOSE DOCUMENTS SHALL PROBABLY BE BROUGHT FORTH
BY  MID-JANUARY  OF  1990.  THE  FATHER/MOTHER  HAS REQUESTED THE
DOCUMENT BE TO PAPER WITHIN 45 DAYS BEGINNING  ON  YESTERDAY  AND
FINISHED BY JANUARY 31.

AS  YOU ONES WHO READ THIS MATERIAL MIGHT GUESS, THERE WILL BE NO
HOLIDAY RESPITE FOR THESE DEAR ONES--BE GENTLE WITH THEM AND GIVE
GREAT HONOR TO THEM FOR THEY TOIL LONG IN YOUR BEHALF.

I am not going to digress to Genesis for I come  not  to  quarrel
with any of your decipherings.  We come now to tell you how it is
and always   was.      It   is  not  mystical  nor  magic--it  is
fact--physical and physics.  Earth is Satan's playground--he  was
given  the  planet  and renounced from the Heavenly dimensions of
higher frequency.  His workers are all around you---there are  no
hostile  "space  brothers"  waiting to gobble you up--that is the
biggest  lie  and  deceit  of   all--to   render   you   fearful,
panic-filled and  blinded.  Look upward--see the strobing colored
lights encircling your "stars" and "planets" in  the  heavens  in
your  night  sky--oh  yes, we are out here in full glory to outdo
your Christmas trees.

Ah yes, the Evil Deceiver---and you wondrous people  of  the  lie
have  swallowed  it hook, line and sinker--fish caught and headed
for the frying pan.


Topic: LET'S TALK OF THIS FIRST RIDER WHO DECEIVES, FIRST OUTSIDE
Topic: THE PROJECTED "CHURCH" - Chap 7



For many will come in His name, claiming, "I am the Christ",  and
these ones will deceive many.  By the way, for you ones who think
these  messages  represent  the false prophets and fall into this
category--nay, no claim of being Christ or even a prophet of  any
sort---just  putting  the  fact to the paper in (hopefully) total
anonymity and absence of all public  attention.    The  attention
gleaners---beware of  them.  It does not mean their works are not
of truth, but you must always discern what is gained by so-called
"speakers" and projectors.  There are no  groupies  or  disciples
here,  my friends--just hard workers with each pulling an equally
important load.  Any charges for the journals is simply  so  that
further  journals  can  be brought forth and dispersed for all of
these ones have naught.

Further, there are great works to be funded---the most crucial is
the work to put into the "physical" apparatus to  stop  AIDS.  It
requires laboratory facilities and persons who have knowledge and
it  will  NOT  be supported by your government---for therein lies
the source of the plague in the first place.  Oh yes, there is so
much to be done and so few, in the beginning, to do  it.    Know,
however, that as truth marches across this world the armies shall
grow and  none  shall  be able to stop you.  You will move out of
this evil age of darkness for that is the promise.   If  you  can
believe  the evil worst---can you not also believe the promise of
radiance?

The major way this first evil rider deceives is through  the  lie
and    creation   of   false   religions---which,   forgive   the
abruptness--all of your cults are.  I use the word "cult" in  its
definition  of "group" "doctrine"---"church". The Deceiver wishes
you to believe that cult and occult mean something which they  do
not;  i.e.,  you  label  the  Church  of  Satan a cult for occult
practices.  Well, every church (body of  -)  is  a  cult  (group)
looking  into  the  occult (that which is beyond physical proof).
Simple, is it not?  The local Pentacostal or Catholic club  is  a
church cult  practicing  the  occult.   You ones better look into
your own definitions.

Many hundreds of false churches have come forth---however, almost
all  that  were  already  established  are  filled  with  heinous
falseness.  But then, that is - - -


Topic: DECEIT WITHIN THE CHURCH - Chap 7


Deception  is  rising  like  the  sea  dragon within the accepted
"churches" which are now touched so much by the  evil  master  of
lies,  that you even reach downward and "vote in" your doctrines,
having even deviated from your  own  mis-translated  versions  of
your own   semi-truths.    Your  own  "Christian"  sects  are  so
fragmented that your councils of religious laws are ridiculed and
your own children turn away from the contradictions and hypocrisy
of the examples set forth for their teaching and rearing.

Satan's greatest disguise has always been to appear before men as
"an angel of light".  If you were Satan and you wanted  the  best
and darkest followers---where would you go?  To the "Churches" of
course!    You   would   go  where  there  is  control  over  the
masses--i.e., you would require the pastor or priest to  disallow
even viewing  of  such  material  as  these documents.  You would
pronounce "the truth" according to "you" and joyfully require the
people to pay your salary for the information they choose for you
to have, build temples (every church has a building  fund)  which
the pastor  gets  to call "his" and thus and so.  KEEP THE PEOPLE
BLIND AND THE HOOD PULLED TIGHTLY TO THE SHOULDERS.

If you want to remain "popular" then sanction murder and call  it
women's  rights--to kill is to murder at whatever age be the seed
of life.  I do  not  judge,  I  simply  marvel  at  the  lack  of
responsibility  in the heinous misuse of sexual pleasure and lust
that must result  in  murder  of  the  innocent.    I  judge  not
homosexual    preference---I   condemn   the   sodomy   acts   of
homosexuality  for,  among  other  things,  it   is   killing   a
civilization  of humans through AIDS. It is the behavior, not the
inclination, which is incorrect and against the Laws of  Creation
and God.

It  is  from  WITHIN  the  churches  that you have re-written the
meaning of the  laws  of  the  Commandments--do  not  blame  your
brother--you have allowed of it.

How about  your own revered "Paul"?  "For the time will come when
men will not put up with sound doctrine.  Instead, to suit  their
own  desires,  they  will  gather  around  them a great number of
teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They  will
turn  their  eyes  away  from the truth and turn aside to myths."
Let me check here--1 Timothy 4:1,2.

Yes, the white horse has escaped the barn while you left the door
open and the rider has spread his cloak about the lands.    Satan
is  transforming  himself into a false angel of light and Satan's
representatives  are  also  being  transformed  as  ministers  of
righteousness--mostly  totally  in  ignorance  of  that  which is
happening, so subtle is the transition.  While  propagating  that
which  brings  death  and  darkness  to the mind and heart of the
sinner, they profess to be representatives  of  the  God  who  is
light.  They claim to be propagating doctrines that come from the
God  of  light,  the  living  God.  This  is  a  part  of satanic
deception--the satanic system that imitates the program of God.

Well, you  just  want  it  ALL--wealth,  power,  sexual  prowess,
charisma--ALL that is  worldly.   So be it.  That first rider has
fooled you again--you thought it would be perfect if you had  all
these things and you end with nothing that brings you pleasure or
peace.

Do  you  not  see---Satan had to be the one on the first horse to
set the path for the rest  of  his  plan.    He  has  hooked  and
hoodwinked  a  world  of human beings and has now locked you into
the next  episodes---all  of  which  are  flourishing  all  about
you----ALL  OF  THE  HORSES  ARE  LOOSED  AND  ALL  THE SEALS ARE
BROKEN--INCLUDING THE LAST. SO BE IT FOR THE DAY IS AT HAND.

Let us take respite now.  Let us be cautious to keep the writings
to a reasonable length so that we will not lose  greatly  if  our
systems are  interrupted.  I salute you for your persistence--for
you ones most surely have beyond your share  of  assault.    Take
rest now  and  we shall continue a bit later.  We do have much to
cover  prior  to  your  coming  into  working  with  the  ancient
teachings  for  we  want you not touched by that truth before the
writing of this document.  Salu.

HATONN MOVING TO STAND-BY. SALU, AND CLEARED

Topic: CHAPTER 8

From: REC #2 HATONN

Date: MONDAY, DECEMBER 18, 1989 1:15 P.M. YEAR 3, DAY 124


Topic: THE HORSE OF RED - Chap 8


Evil projects himself in a more obvious format in this  instance.
When  summoned,  the  second horseman charges from the scroll and
reins in before the throne as John sees him.  He sits  astride  a
red mount--the  color of blood.  The rider is given power to take
peace from earth and to make men slay each other.

Remember, God is not the cause of war.  God  had  a  far  greater
plan  for  His creation--and at first that plan was a reality but
as evil came into the picture so came war and conflict---man  was
given  free-will  choice  and was upon Earth to learn his lessons
and come forth into truth within manifested experience.

Since "soul", "spirit" is the only "reality" of  man,  in  truth,
then  it  must  be  through  the  "spirit"  that  man  learns and
grows--all things physical are but  passing  fancy  illusions  to
distract  you from your path and keep you mired in the assumption
of "self".

Man as manifested in the beginning chose not to obey God  or  the
Laws  of  Creation,  and his resulting "fallen" or lowered nature
turned to making war and conflict, not peace.  Man  also  refused
to  hear  the warnings of the ages just as most will fail to hear
these truths.

How many of you realize that Harry  Truman  was  warned  severely
before  Mount  St. Helens erupted--by the Indian Teachers--so all
of mankind through history has refused to listen to the  warnings
of  God. Sometimes these warnings come forth long before the fact
as in this case and yet, some are even more pointed.    When  the
ancients  speak--man better listen for they are hearing the truth
from the "Mother's mouth".

Just as with Dharma or Little Crow, or the  other  receivers  and
scribes---as  these  words flow forth the pain of the visions are
all but devastating to the senses.  John, too, stood  stunned  as
the hoofbeats of that blood red horse still rang in his mind.  He
was   caused  to  hear  the  clanking  of  sword  against  sword,
explosions of unlimited view, the  thuds  of  heavy  iron  spears
piercing  flesh  and  crunching  bone, the sound of screaming and
babes crying and the moans and groans  of  the  wounded  and  the
gasps  of  the  dying--as  far  as  the  mind  can conceive--into
infinity which also overwhelms the senses.

Those same hoofbeats are in your lands this day--no ancient dream
vision by an old man  in  a  Patmos  prison---in  your  dooryards
throughout your  world.  Some have built shelters that they might
survive to build another day---you in the U.S. have done  nothing
to  protect  your very lives of which almost all would survive if
sheltered within a mere 10 feet of terra.

Listen---do you not hear the sounds?  Those  same  hoofbeats  are
bearing down on you as you sit with this document in hand.  Above
those  noisy hoofbeats arise other sounds -- the metallic thud of
machine guns, the whistle of flamethrowers and mortar rounds, the
crackle of burning schools with the screams of the children,  the
rubble  of  homes  and  churches,  the  shrill shriek of missiles
zeroing in with their nuclear  warheads,  the  explosion  of  150
megaton bombs or multitudes of smaller ones over your cities--the
terrible  cries  of  the Mother Earth herself as she gives up her
creations unto the evil rider of death.

War,  anarchy,  brother   against   brother,   neighbor   against
neighbor--the   breakdown   of   sane   human  relationships  has
characterized human history and is  in  full  bloom  within  your
communities  which  no  longer have "community", within your very
touch.  Even your Jesus forecast that worst of woes and  wars  as
"unequaled  from  the beginning of the world until now--and never
to be equaled again.  If those days had not been  cut  short,  no
one would survive."

It  is  totally  naive and insane for you to ignore the fact that
the ominous rider who brings war is, even now, riding  recklessly
in your  direction.  Your earth in perception has shrunk into but
a global village; you are all neighbors.  The foreboding sound of
these hoofbeats of the red horse pulses like an erratic heartbeat
at the center of your beleaguered planet.  You have stockpiles of
over 60,000 hydrogen bombs which give the human race the power to
destroy the entire earth seventeen or  more  times  over  through
nuclear  flames  reaching  130  million  degrees--in one blinding
flash-----and yes, with a shelter system you could  survive  even
that, dear friends.

From China, Deng Xiaoping on the inevitability of world war: "War
will burst  sooner  or  later.  And whoever believes the contrary
makes a tragic mistake."

And from Andrei Sakharov, the dissident Soviet scientist we honor
today: "I know that pacifist sentiments are very strong . . . . I
deeply sympathize with people's yearning for peace . . . .This is
an extremely important factor, BUT, I repeat, itself  alone  does
not exclude the possibility of a totally tragic outcome."

The one you called the Pale Prophet, The Prophet, The Christ, The
Jesus  Jmmanuel Sananda----said unto you, "These things will come
to pass--they must come to pass so be not alarmed."  Further, "In
the ending days it will be so awful that unless  those  days  had
not been cut short, no one would survive."

Man  has  the  potential and probable intention to annihilate the
species and obliterate the human race.  Well, God will  intervene
prior  to  the  total  obliteration  of  the civilization and the
Mother Earth will be given into her cleansing.

How many will fall by the sword?  A third of your people.  And  a
third  of  you  people  will  perish of the plagues--so be it and
selah.  I propose to you ones who hold this journal---get all the
prior documents  for  we  have  spoken  on  each  of  the  mighty
circumstances  and  shall  speak more as we walk with you through
this veil of tribulation.

I will remind you  of  a  bit  of  rather  catchy  "wording"--God
promised  that  the  world  would  not again be destroyed---so be
it--he did not promise  that  the  majority  of  humans  of  this
civilization would not be destroyed--ponder it most carefully.

From  the  mouths of your own "experts": "Acknowledged experts in
international and military  affairs  agree  that  unless  present
trends  are  reversed, chances are 4 in 5 that a nuclear war will
destroy civilization in the next decade  (that  was  your  '85  -
'95)."   And   every   day  your  government  says  you  need  no
shelters--Oh, ye lambs of blindness just moving headlong unto the
slaughter.  "Madness has gripped the human race and unless  peace
comes  into  the  world  of man none shall be in the surviving of
it."  AHO!

Now before you go asking why God would allow such a thing--or you
go further, and simply blame God, I will point out some important
points.  Man alone is created in the image of God  (who  is  soul
energy--not human shape) and man occupied a very special place in
God's creation.    The  individual person has dignity before God,
and this is a fundamental fact that stresses his  uniqueness  and
underlines  his  value  within society--no one can do anything of
spiritual nature for another--each individual makes his  choices.
It  must  herein  be stressed THAT MAN, NOT GOD, IS GUILTY OF THE
EVIL IN THE WORLD. IT IS MAN WHO BEARS THE RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE
MAN WAS GIVEN THE ABILITY TO MAKE FREE MORAL CHOICES AND HE CHOSE
DELIBERATELY TO DISOBEY GOD.

Even your Dr. Einstein; "No, there will never be  peace--as  long
as  there will be man there will be war, one more horrendous than
the one before."

Best you go look again within the pages of your Holy Books; peace
is referred to in three main ways.

First, there is spiritual peace.  This is peace between  man  and
God.  Second,  there is psychological peace, or peace within self
and, third, there is relational peace---or, peace among men.  Man
shall never achieve this final peace until such time as  the  new
kingdom   is   established   and  a  new  order  built  forth  in
truth---furthermore  The   Mother/Father   Creator   Aton   shall
intervene to bring about this restful peace for your planet earth
and those who remain to experience her radiance.

Well,  Hatonn,  what  do we do---you are of doom and gloom so why
not just "stop trying"?

I suggest that your responsibility in the world is quite clear no
matter what the conditions might be or how late  the  hour  might
seem.   You must not join with those who stand by and wring their
hands, saying all is hopeless.  In spite of the chaos threatening
your world  there  can  be  hope  for  your  generation  and  for
generations to  come.   With "grace" you can grapple with many of
the problems  and  actually  solve  them.    You  have  a   moral
obligation to envision and provide moral and spiritual leadership
for  your  generations---THE PUNCH LINE, CHELAS, IS THAT A LARGE,
LARGE NUMBER OF YOU WHO MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICES SHALL MOVE INTO  A
TIME OF TREMENDOUS RADIANCE AND THERE MUST BE LEADERS TO SHOW THE
WAY TO THE BROTHER WHO DOES NOT YET SEE.

Things  appear  to  be  changing  in the world---no, you are just
choosing up new sides---you in the U.S.  have  been  allies  with
Russia for  many  years---just you citizens didn't know.  You can
disarm the whole of the U.S. and Russia and it only makes China's
job easier--so be it for he who has eyes to see let him open them
and see; he who has ears to hear let him open them and  hear--the
handwriting is spread across the walls of the nations--not just a
cement fragile  wall in mid-Berlin.  You had better get moving on
your survival shelter system lest you  wait  too  long,  for  the
horsemen are riding at full gallop.

In  response to a letter regarding shelters to a local government
person from one who wrote as requested in SURVIVAL---HE  HAD  "NO
INTENTIONS  OF  PRESSING FOR SUCH A THING FOR THAT IS THE PROBLEM
OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND  FURTHERMORE,  I  HAVE  MORE  IMPORTANT
THINGS  TO DO THAN SPEND MY TIME ON SUCH A THING." THIS IS ONE OF
ARIZONA'S FINE POLITICIANS AND I WOULD BE MOST  HAPPY  TO  SUPPLY
THE NAME   THEREOF  UPON  REQUEST!    This  is  a  bit  of  loose
quotation--the statement was more emphatic than stated above.

Giving  credit  where  due,  however,  another  of  your  Arizona
"higher"  government  representatives at state level had not read
our book but had access to the book FIGHTING CHANCE-TEN  FEET  TO
SURVIVAL  and suggested you deluge your government officials with
copies of these  books  and  demand  action  which  he  would  be
delighted  to  spearhead  and  further,  sent the letter from the
individual on to Washington representatives.  YOU CAN IF YOU  BUT
WILL!

Dharma,  let us take respite before we move on to the Black Horse
and rider----still the old evil guru himself.  That would be  the
opening of  the  third  seal.   That one bears massive hunger and
starvation.  A loaf of bread for $20  I  believe  was  the  going
price--forget it, you will not long find the loaf of bread at any
price.  You can yet prepare if you but will---so be it and Selah.

HATONN TO STAND-BY AND CLEARING FREQUENCY. SALU


Topic: CHAPTER 9

From: REC #1 HATONN

Date: TUESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1989 7:30 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 125


Hatonn present, cleared and prepared to resume our journal.  Good
morning.

Topic: COMMENTS - Chap 9


I  am so bombarded with questions of current nature that I feel I
must comment on a few of the more pertinent ones.  Then, I  again
petition you ones to present me with a plan as to how we might do
running commentary.  This is a most hap-hazard manner in which to
respond  to  inquiries  and yet, you ones must know that which is
happening to your world--each day for you are in the  chaos.    I
would handle the subjects on reminder and notation basis.

The  biggest  single question is why all the attention to warfare
weapons improvement and Russia's touring of NATO  and  integrated
openness to Soviet scientists of U.S. installations, etc.

Harken  back some three to four years to a shushed statement made
by Mr. Reagan--"We should join forces with the  Soviet  Union  to
protect Earth from Extraterrestrials!"

There has been a massive cover-up "for your protection" regarding
our presence.   The governments have had a massive misinformation
push---innocent   ones   caught   up   and   assisting   in   the
misinformation distribution---and they are ready to spring on you
unsuspecting  ones  that  the  "enemy" of human is in your skies.
They will claim every negative act in the past century will  have
been  our  doing  and  they  will  terrorize  the  masses of your
civilization.  They will then claim that all this space apparatus
and diverted funds, etc., was actually to protect  you  from  us.
YOU NEED NO PROTECTING FROM US BUT YOU SURELY DO FROM "THEM"!

Second  question today: What about all these secret meetings with
China?

Go right back to SPACEGATE AND SPIRAL; remember the International
Monetary Fund, The Trilateral Commission, The World Bank and  the
CFR (Council on Foreign Relations)?

Where  has  Henry  Kissinger  been and what has he been doing all
this time ?

How many of you realize that Mr. Kissinger is the  most  powerful
member   of   the   President's   Foreign  Intelligence  Advisory
Board---of the CFR?

How many of you  realize  that  Mr.  Kissinger  controls  mammoth
amounts of funds in Banks in China?

How  many of you know that a bill put forth as a provision of the
State Department Authorization Bill known as "The Kissinger Bill"
was killed in a joint Senate-House conference committee Nov.  22,
1989?   This  provision  would  have  required all members of the
President's Foreign Intelligence  Advisory  Board  to  make  full
financial  disclosure, and it was made clear that Kissinger would
resign rather than reveal  his  multiple  conflicts  of  interest
through his "Kissinger Associates Consulting Firm".

But what  of  China?    You  are now seeing the sacrifice of your
administration  of  40,000  Chinese  students  to   imprisonment,
torture, and death.  For you who don't know of that which I speak
let  me  summarize:  A  Congressional  Bill was passed permitting
Chinese students to remain in the U.S. for up to four years after
graduation, if they feared persecution upon their return  to  the
mainland.   Under your current laws students would have to return
to China immediately after finishing their studies.

Most of these children were active  in  U.S.  demonstrations  and
other public activities in the days leading up to, and following,
the Tiananmen   Square   massacre.    These  demonstrations  were
systematically filmed by agents  of  the  Chinese  Department  of
Public  Security.  The  students  know  that  they  have all been
identified.  If the students return to China,  they  would  share
the  fate  of  the  masses  of murdered and incarcerated young in
China. Over 6,000 students and leaders have been executed.

The Senate and House  voted  95-0  and  403-0,  respectively,  on
behalf of  the  Pelosi-Armstrong bill.  No congressman, at least,
voted for the murder of these children.   PRESIDENT  BUSH  WAITED
UNTIL CONGRESS WAS OUT OF SESSION BEFORE ANNOUNCING THAT HE WOULD
NOT  SIGN  THE  BILL--EXERCISING  A  SO-CALLED  "POCKET VETO" NOT
SUBJECT TO AN IMMEDIATE CONGRESSIONAL VOTE TO OVERRIDE.

Explanation as  to  why:  Well,  White  House  spokesmen  mumbled
something  about  Beijing  threatening  to  cancel  the Fulbright
scholarship program, which allows American students to  study  in
China, if Bush signed the bill.  Bush says he "thinks that China,
as its leaders state, will return to the policy of reform pursued
before".

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 7 <<=================

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 7/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:39:58 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 568



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 7 <<==============================


Topic: ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE - Chap 9


Deng  Xiaoping  and  Li Peng and their thugs have made China, the
country with the greatest potential of human wealth on earth,  an
economic disaster through their unbelievable incompetence and the
worst corruption seen in human history--well, almost.

The  policies  the Chinese government imposed only a year ago are
so vicious that the "backbone" of China's industrial economy  has
been broken.  Production is collapsing.

China  is  now  massively in debt internally and externally---now
who loaned them the money in  both  instances?    Remember  those
"American"  banks  in  China which removed employees for some two
days at the time of the fiasco---gave them a vacation, I  believe
I remember!   Payments on China's two loans will peak in the next
two years.  The internal debt hit 80 billion yuan ($21.5 billion)
in  November  and  foreign  debt  is  estimated  at   about   $42
billion---this  in  a country with an annual income per capita of
approximately $300 a year.  Yes, I said $300!  China must pay  30
billion  yuan  ($8  billion)  in  domestic  debt  in 1990, and $7
billion in foreign debt next  year.    But  this  debt  does  not
include   the   billions  in  bonds  issued  by  local  banks  on
enterprises  to  fund  their  operations  under  the   government
"reform".

Keep  in mind that to get this money "on loan" the country had to
put up natural resources, etc.  as collateral  to  these  foreign
banks who were loaning the money.

The  government  has two plans to deal with the debt: internally,
rob the workforce, and impose  more  austerity;  and  externally,
slash  imports  (which  are 80% vital raw materials), devalue the
currency  and  impose  strict  foreign  exchange  controls,   and
renegotiate the  debt.    The  yuan  was  already devalued by 60%
between 1981 and 1986, and will now be devalued another 15-18%.

The population is being  robbed  blind.    In  Jiangsu  province,
inside  China  mainland, the state Money Collection Division (tax
bureau) has set up  shop  right  at  the  buying  stations  where
farmers have  to sell their quota of grain to the state.  In many
cases, farmers had to turn over their entire earnings  and  still
owe additional  taxes.  IT CAN HAPPEN RIGHT THERE IN THE U.S., MY
SLEEPY FRIENDS.

Industrial workers are being robbed of at least one month's wages
a year  to  "buy"  state  bonds.    The  government   is   trying
desperately to increase its tax revenues by imposing higher taxes
on  the  enterprises,  which  then turn around and take the money
directly from workers' pay envelopes.    Workers  who  earn  only
about  120  yuan per month ($30), often find that their wages are
gone and they only receive a "bond" which they might be  able  to
redeem in several years hence.  And so it goes.

Now,  does  it  come  clear  as  to WHO is placing those silkworm
missiles in the Middle East?  Ah yes, my students  brighten--YOU!
YES  INDEED---I  SUGGEST  YOU  GO  BACK  TO SCHOOL, GET SPIRAL TO
ECONOMIC DISASTER, A PHOENIX JOURNAL, FROM  THIS  PUBLISHER---AND
READ  IT  WELL.  THE  MASTER  PLAN  IS  FUNCTIONING WONDROUSLY IN
PERFECTION.

FURTHER, IF "THEY" CAN GET YOUR ATTENTION DISTRACTED TO DRUG WARS
AND WEAPONS CONTROL AND TERRIFY YOU OF OUR  PRESENCE  BY  SENDING
THE    LECTURERS   OF   DISINFORMATION   ABOUT   TO   YOU   EAGER
LISTENERS---WATCH THE MOVING PEN ACROSS THE WALL, MY DEARS.

The "Grey Men", and I mean your earthlings--are taking control of
your world!  Whether  you  like  it  or  do  not--you  have  been
trapped,  bound  to  the  board and the screws are starting their
final tightening.  No wonder the southern drug lords are fighting
back for their very  lives---and  Mr.  Bush  is  going  south  in
February to see to the finish.  Mr. Bush a Wimp?  Oh no, the most
deadly man  in your world today--right next to Mr. Kissinger!  So
be it--food for the pondering.

Dharma, let us move on to our subject before we take  a  respite.
I  apologize  for  the  interruption  but  you ones must began to
"think" and really SEE what you see.

* * *


Topic: AH YES, THE BLACK HORSE AND RIDER - Chap 9


The vision went that the Lamb  carefully  pries  open  the  third
seal.  The  scroll gently unrolls.  At the same moment, the third
of God's servant creatures steps to the center stage and gives  a
command, "Come"!    Into  the  presence  of  the Lamb of God, the
twenty-four elders and the host of angelic  witnesses  emerges  a
horse and  rider.    This  black horse and rider bear yet a third
warning to the peoples  of  your  planet--a  warning  of  massive
hunger and  starvation.    John: "Its rider was holding a pair of
scales in his hand.  Then I heard what sounded like a voice among
the four living creatures, saying, 'A quart of wheat for a  day's
wages,  and  three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not
damage the oil and the wine!'"

Following deception and false religions there is  always  a  turn
into famine and  pestilence.  This shall be no different.  Famine
will prevail upon the earth and millions will die of hunger----is
it not already so?  Millions more  will  suffer  malnutrition  of
massive  nature  from  inadequate  diet  and  from this will come
openness to all manner of illness, despair and death.

But what of the oil and wine?  Ah, so you noticed!   However,  if
you  look  about your world it should not bring comfort unto you.
THIS IS A PICTURE OF LUXURY COEXISTING WITH FAMINE!  The prophets
have warned you that famine would  stalk  the  earth  and  starve
whole peoples   in   various   parts   of  the  world.    But  He
characterized those in other parts of the  world  as  eating  and
drinking, in gross excess.

In  the closing days before the Christ returns there shall be the
most disparate conditions occurring parallel and simultaneous.

You in America alone weigh a billion pounds too much.  You  spend
an  annual  $15  billion  on  diet  formulas  and  $22 billion on
cosmetics.  That amount would save the lives of the world  for  a
whole cycle of a year.

Well,  enjoy  it  for the disparity between starvation and riches
side by side in the world today will be dwarfed in comparison  to
that which  has  been  predicted  for  the  future.   There is an
incomparably blacker day coming.

Your whole world community is wrestling with  the  food  problem.
It is not a matter of the total quantity of food, but the problem
of distribution.    Dishonesty  among  some  international relief
organizations, indifference of certain governments to the  plight
of  their  own  people,  cheapness with which life is regarded in
parts of the world and the terrible fraud in  many  nations---all
complicate your problems.

You  have  only  three  countries in the world annually producing
more wheat than they consume: the  U.S.,  Australia  and  Canada.
The  Soviets  have  the  potential to produce more than any other
nation,   but   because   of   adverse   weather,    acknowledged
inefficiency,  and other political reasons they get only one good
crop about every four or five years.  In the U.S.,  however,  you
still  have  starving  and  homeless people while your government
subsidizes non-production and ships your surplus  goods  to  your
avowed enemies.  Justice?  You have no justice!

You  have  millions  of homeless and hungry people in the U.S. As
winter sets in--a winter forcasters predict will be the worst  in
this  century--the  plight  of these homeless and hungry citizens
becomes acute.  You have more than 4 million homeless--more  than
any  time  before, including your Great Depression. More and more
people will literally freeze to death.  Once the churches  opened
their  doors  to  the  needy--now  there  is terror of vandalism,
satanism and frankly, greed and stinginess.

Now, you ones who PREFER TO NOT HEAR THESE THINGS---LISTEN UP.

Ones who are homeless and out of work are doing whatever they can
just to survive.  Some have turned to the public park  sites  and
have  actually  turned them into permanent homes, staying out the
mandatory 24 to 48 hour waiting period and then returning to  the
same park.    Not all of those camping out are poor minorities or
unskilled  workers;  on  the  contrary,  the  vast  majority   of
newly-homeless  are  professionals and/or highly skilled workers,
including computer  programmers  and  even  aerospace  engineers.
Where,  for  instance,  will the 20,000 laid off workers from IBM
alone, go?  What happens to them when they cannot find  work  and
cannot pay mortgages and bills?  But you know what?--it matches a
prophecy  of Hindu origin which stated people would resort to the
mountains and forest in order to survive--this, over 5,000  years
ago and half a world distant from you.


Topic: THE  WORST IS COMING RIGHT NOW REGARDING  THE  SIGNS  THAT
Topic: SHOW  UP  HEREIN. - Chap 9


Your  government  is having the most massive public lands sale of
this or any prior century.  They are literally putting  thousands
and thousands of acres on the auction block.

Now the place to pay attention to the clues: The American Indians
fear  that  they  may  be homeless as they are just about to have
disbanded the reservation system and deprive them of their lands,
in order to open them up for mining exploitation, etc.  THIS WILL
FULFILL THE LAST SIGN OF THE INDIAN PROPHECIES ABOUT THEIR  LANDS
BEING TAKEN FROM THEM.

Let us close this segment for I shall enlarge upon these subjects
as we get to the opening of the seals beyond the four horsemen of
the Apocalypse.

I have  ones  of  my own who refuse to read the documents.  It is
their choice--somehow they think all will "go-away"  if  they  do
not look  nor  change  of their thinking.  So be it--it shall not
go-away.  It does, however, make a great deal of difference as to
what you as an individual do in these times of consternation  and
travail.   You  can come into the care and preparation as you are
shown  and  enlightened  and   reap   abundance   even,   through
tribulation---hiding  will reap you naught but poverty and trials
beyond that which you can have any amount of control.  Act  while
you have  control  to some extent and ye shall not want.  Prepare
not and ye shall have naught.

I plead with you that you do not cause yourself  to  pay  such  a
dear  price of poverty for long years in order to revel in luxury
through these coming brief months---for the price  is  too  high.
If  you  come  into "community" you can achieve your security and
safe passage.  I know no other way to help  you.    We  can  only
point  the  way  and  help  you  see  beyond through our extended
vision.  Turn us away if you will for it is your choosing alone.

I take my leave for this time.  We shall continue.

                                       Salu,

                                       I AM HATONN

Topic: CHAPTER 10

From: REC #2 HATONN

Date: TUESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1989 12:30 P.M. YEAR 3, DAY 125


Hatonn to continue.


Even while the Red  and  Black  Horsemen  are  riding  the  world
together  there is a much more deadly thing to watch for; that of
arms and weapons buildup in all of the countries--even  unto  the
smallest.

You  must  understand  that  you  deal  only  in  "sequence"--one
circumstance feeds upon another until the spiral is inescapable.

While famine and disease stalk almost all  of  the  Third  World,
nearly  all  countries,  even  those tiny ones, are arming to the
teeth.  This is one of  the  most  pathetic  developments  taking
place in your  world.   For what do they arm?  Well, brothers, it
is not against Space Cadets, in these instances.    Jealousy  and
hate  still  stalk  the  world  and satanic forces are now on the
rampage.  Those little countries have  sold  their  countries  in
total  to  the ones who granted them loans against all resources.
They are doomed to economic  and  political  chaos  in  the  days
ahead.  But, you cannot "reason" with Satan.

You  must  pay close attention to those things which are NOT told
unto you.  Right now at Christmas season it is happening just  as
I warned  you--even  more  blatantly  than  I  had expected.  The
letter bombings in your southern  states  are  from  a  Supremist
group steeped in Satan worship.

I  need  to  point  out a most important point herein for I think
most of you do not look beneath or beyond what  is  told  to  you
under the guise of "news".

Raise  your  hand  and get your graduation papers if you knew the
following: Guns don't kill people.  People  kill.    And  satanic
infected people  kill  the most.  Why do you think a young couple
was taken from a movie theater in California this  week  and  the
man beaten and the young lady beaten, raped and murdered?

Let  us  look at two cases of murder which turned everyone inside
out regarding gun control.  First the Patrick Purdy case (at  the
elementary  school in Stockton, California) and then the old "Son
of Sam" killings in New York City by David Berkowitz.

The crucial feature of both the Purdy and Berkowitz killings  was
the  link  to  Satanism,  INITIALLY  COVERED  UP  IN  BOTH CASES.
SATANISTS, ASIDE FROM TAKING SADISTIC PLEASURE IN DOING EVIL  FOR
EVIL'S   SAKE,  BELIEVE  THAT  HUMAN  AND  ANIMAL  BLOOD  CONTAIN
"ENERGY", AND THAT THE MORE BLOOD THAT IS SPILLED  AND  THE  MORE
PAIN AND SUFFERING THAT IS INFLICTED UPON THEIR VICTIMS, THE MORE
"ENERGY" WILL  BE RELEASED TO THE CONTROL OF THE SATANISTS.  THIS
IS WHY THE BODIES ARE FOUND TORTURED WHILE STILL ALIVE  AND  ARMS
AND LEGS BROKEN.

Please  spare  us  too  many  details  by  just  getting  SATAN'S
DRUMMERS. The first thing  to  look  for  (and  the  first  thing
covered  up),  in  any  of  these mass murders in the U.S. in the
recent decades, is evidence of Satanic beliefs.  From there,  the
investigation  must  proceed  into  the Satanic underground which
harbors such mass killers.

The Satanic literature in Purdy's room and the  Satanic  markings
on his clothes meant that Satanism was not an "aberration" of the
case  but  the  first  thing which should have been investigated.
Those in favor of gun control, however, such as  your  California
Attorney General, John Van de Kamp, ruled out in his finding that
"racial hatred" motivated Purdy.

The  initially successful cover-up of the Satanic elements in the
Berkowitz case  came  unraveled  in  part  due  to  the  work  of
investigator-author  Maury Terry and is outlined in his book, THE
ULTIMATE EVIL. While the District Attorney, Eugene Gold  (Queens,
New  York)  and others insisted that Berkowitz was a lone killer,
Terry catalogues the evidence those  officials  suppressed,  that
more  than  one  killer  participated  in  each  crime  and  that
Berkowitz himself acted as a member of  a  Satanic  cult.    Just
before  the first murder Berkowitz wrote a warning to the police,
suppressed by them for years: "This is a warning  to  all  police
agencies  in  the tri-state area: For your information, a Satanic
cult has been instructed  by  their  high  command  to  begin  to
systematically  kill  and slaughter young girls or people of good
health and clean blood.  They plan to kill  at  least  100  young
"wemon"  and  men, but mostly "wemon" as part of a satanic ritual
which involves shedding the  victims  innocent  blood---I,  David
Berkowitz,  have  been  chosen  since  birth,  to  be  one of the
executioners for the cult."

Oh, well, you say, "Those are just some sick punks!"  I am  going
to  quote  some  truth  unto  you: "PROFESSOR LINKED TO SATANISTS
FINALLY OUT OF TEXAS UNIVERSITY." "It has been confirmed that the
University of Texas at  Austin  no  longer  employs  Dr.  Stephen
Flowers, a Germanic language professor, who has ties to U.S. Army
Reserve Lt. Col. Michael Aquino's Satanist Temple of Set. Concern
over  the  implications  of  having an avowed leader of a Satanic
church teach at a  public  university  has  been  voiced  by  the
National  Democratic  Policy  Committee  and  other  Texas groups
fighting Satanism. This concern increased after  Mark  Kilroy,  a
University  of  Texas  student, was murdered by a Satanic cult in
Matamoros, Mexico.

"According to knowledgeable sources, Flowers was one of the  nine
councillors  of  the  Temple  of  Set. His Ph.D. dissertation was
entitled "Runes and Magic". He studied at the University of Texas
and at Goettingen University in West Germany.

"While in West Germany, it is believed that Flowers  participated
in  the  revival of pagan Germanic beliefs, which have become the
basis for neo-Nazi movements in  West  Germany.  Flowers  told  a
journalist  that he has an interest in reviving 'the old Germanic
traditions', and that  he  had  personally  participated  in  the
founding meeting of the re-created Thule Society which took place
in the early 1980's in West Germany.

"Temple  of Set founder, Michael Aquino, cites the original Thule
Society, of which Adolf Hitler was a member,  as  an  inspiration
for  the  Temple  of  Set.  Aquino  staged  a  Satanic  ritual at
Wewelsburg Castle, where he invoked Himmler and other Nazis.

"Flowers told an interviewer in 1980 that he is 'sympathetic'  to
the return of Europe to 'the values of pre-Christian Germany'.

"The  Temple of Set, which Aquino founded, and with which Flowers
is connected, is a spin-off of the decade-old Church of Satan  of
Anton  Szandor  LaVey.  In one Temple recruiting document, Aquino
describes how he invoked the 'Prince of Darkness' in quest  of  a
new mandate to preserve the concept of the Church of Satan.

"Flowers  is  currently employed at Austin Community College, Rio
Grande St. Campus, in Austin, Texas." Rest easy tonight, all  you
Texans.  There  is  no  way to impress upon you the importance of
this movement directly toward evil.


Topic: THE PALE HORSE - Chap 10


And the fourth seal was  broken  by  the  Lamb.  John  wrote,  "I
looked, and there before me was a pale horse!  Actually, it meant
a  word  in  Greek which is chloros--yellow-green color of sickly
grass.  It has also  been  described  as  chloros--the  color  of
ashes;  another  calls  it  the  color  of  a face "blanched with
terror".  Another described it as  the  horse  being  livid,  the
bloodless color  of  a  corpse.    You  would use the root of the
ancient Greek  word  when  you  describe  the  bilious  color  of
chlorine  gas that would seep from a wrecked tanker car and mists
its poisonous way across the  landscape,  lethally  leveling  all
life--plants and people alike--in its wake.

Seated  on this bilious horse was a rider "named Death, and Hades
was following close behind him".  Furthermore, this rider  called
Death  was  given  power and permission to kill one-fourth of the
world's population.

What of the weapons of death?  Sword,  famine,  plague  and  wild
beasts for  a  few.  Worse yet, these same revelations were given
to Daniel, Moses, etc.  In fact,  some  of  the  projections  are
quite  awful  to contemplate, "Wild beasts will rob them of their
children, and destroy their cattle and herds, and make  them  few
in number.     The  sword  will  avenge  their  breaches  of  the
covenant.  When they are gathered in their cities the  pestilence
will be  among  them.   He will break the staff of bread and they
will eat and not  be  satisfied."    This  was  from  John.  From
Ezekiel---heard a voice from out the ethers, "How much worse will
it   be   when   I   send  against  Jerusalem  my  four  dreadful
judgments--sword and famine and wild beasts and  plague--to  kill
its men  and  their  animals!"  Ah, but all the prophets say that
there will be survivors--further, these four horsemen would  ride
over and over again throughout the ages.

Throughout  the  centuries  the  fourth  horseman  has  ridden in
warning to effect positive change.  And--he rides again.  To make
you give a bit of thought to this matter before settling down  to
your local  football game.  "One quarter of the population of the
earth" is precisely the prediction that a major Soviet  scientist
said  (1983)  would  perish in the FIRST nuclear exchange between
the superpowers.  And  there  you  are,  beloved  ones,  with  no
survival  shelters  and leaders with "more important things to be
done".

If man did not change of his ways and return his Mother Source to
balance, he would find other nasty things in the woodwork.   "The
pestilence  will  cling to you until it has consumed you from off
the land, which you go to possess.   You  will  be  smitten  with
consumption,  with  fever, and inflammation - - - and tumors, the
scurvy and the itch, of which you cannot be healed.  You will  be
smitten   with  madness  and  blindness  and  dismay  of  heart."
Translated   that   means   wasting,    degenerative    diseases,
communicable diseases, cancers, deficiency diseases and incurable
diseases such as VD, herpes simplex II, and AIDS.  Mental illness
and  depression  will  rest  upon the populace and there shall be
addicted children and birth defects.  There shall be endless  and
debilitating  emotional  traumas  running  rampant throughout the
peoples.  The cures for these  things  shall  be  kept  from  the
people and hoarded by the controllers.

As  the  changes  come  upon  the earth the starving wild animals
shall hunt within the cities.  You shall fall prey to animal  and
insect-borne epidemics.    The  evil  ones  shall  roam the earth
unrestrained, torturing and killing their human brothers.   There
shall  be uncontrollable pests that shall eat the fields and feed
on man.  There will be torment so devastating that men  will  beg
for death only to find that death eludes them.  Man shall live as
the wild beasts.

You would blame  God?  Well, so be it.  While you are blaming God
you might have been doing of your homework and finding shelter in
his wings instead.   All  the  programs  which  man  promises  to
develop  for bringing peace, plenty and longevity through science
and technology will be eclipsed by a cataclysmic  apocalypse  and
overturned in  appalling  brevity.    For  the  ones  who  intend
destruction and enslavement of you of  the  people  have  planned
well and they will not go down easily.

Topic: WHAT  ABOUT  FAITHFUL  AND  TRUE - Chap 10


Now we  get  on  to  the fifth horse--the snow white horse.  What
does that vision mean?  It means that the  WORD  of  truth  shall
come  forth  and the rider of that wondrous "horse" shall bear of
his new name and man shall see that which he has  done  unto  his
Source. Man, however, will not awaken and see his plight until he
has  sunken  to  his  lowest  and  most  perilous  point  in  all
history--not until after the four horsemen have swept  the  lands
and the bowls of the full seven seals have been emptied.

Man has  lost  the capacity to foresee and to forestall.  He will
end by destroying the earth itself if left unto his own devices.

So you are not left to your own devices past a given point  where
the  higher  truth shall intervene and the cycle will end and the
new begin.

The word is being given unto you now.  The messengers are at hand
and the higher ones are arrived to show you the way home.  We  do
not  come  in  the  form of flapping winged spirits, we come in a
form you can relate to.  We  come  as  your  brothers  of  higher
knowledge.  This  school is closing, chelas.  You are in the time
of chaos and the play will be finished whether  or  not  you  are
prepared.  It is time to heed the truth of the word for you shall
not be in the surviving of these things unless you awaken and get
with the task at hand.

The  hosts  of  heaven are at hand and the brothers of the cosmos
stand ready.  So be it.

Dharma, close this portion please.  You are in the time known  to
the  Indians  as  The  Great  Purification---will  you  perish or
survive?  It is your choice.  Deny the messengers sent forth  for
your assistance  and  you have no way off your prison.  I suggest
you ponder these things most carefully.

In love and service I take my leave.

Salu,

Hatonn to stand-by.  Thank you Dharma. Good Day.

Topic: CHAPTER 11

From: REC #1 HATONN/SANANDA

Date: WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1989 8:30 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 126


Hatonn present in the light of radiance and truth.    This  is  a
most important day for Sananda stands ready to commune about this
journal.   We shall speak briefly regarding the present before we
move on into the writings.

Panama: You want all there is to know about Panama.  No,  I  will
not even  waste  time on the subject to any extent.  We have gone
over the situation in many  documents.    Take  note  of  several
facets and you have your answers.

Topic: COMMENTS - Chap 11


This  show  of strength on the part of the U.S. had to be done by
the year end.  How do you explain the deaths of the young men  to
the   parents   who  were  sent  in  "to  protect  the  lives  of
Americans"?  How do you explain the deaths  of  the  citizens  of
Panama who  were  killed  in "your" protection of them?  Where is
Mr. Noriega?  Could it be to show force to  the  other  countries
who are  going  to  suffer  the  same  invasion?    Do  I condone
dictators?  No. Do I know where Mr. Noriega  is  located?    Yes.
And--he still has all his contracts and documents between him and
the U.S. in safe-keeping.  Oh yes, he was going to get a fair and
speedy trial--most  speedy  indeed.    Will  there be unfavorable
backlash?  Of course.

All the U.S. spokesmen are declaring  "victory"!    Victory  over
what?   Do  you  think the American soldiers mired in the mud who
had to be dragged  out  by  tow-ropes  are  feeling  foolish,  or
victorious?   How  do  you  think the world is going to feel when
they witness pictures of the U.S. Army in such a snafu (I believe
is your term)?  It truly resembles something from Blazing Saddles
and other Mel Brooks comedies.  So be  it.    The  entire  action
appears as  ridiculous  as  it  is  in  fact.   Do not waste your
energies on  the  matter  for  you  are  witnessing  "distraction
tactics" and you will err if you become distracted.

There is one point, however, that you must not miss.  Mr. Noriega
had Israel's "finest" training his soldiers.  Might there be some
interesting insight  herein?   Have not the Israeli trainers been
involved in other training  instances  lately---working  for  the
Colombian Drug  Cartel?   What in the world might Israel be doing
in these places?  I make no judgment or further comment, I simply
do not wish you to overlook some most important clues.

And what of Mr. Castro while all this toy soldier game  is  going
on---having tea with Mr. Noriega, perhaps?

Do you  think  you  are  finished?    You  will be lucky if those
"leaving" power don't blow up the entire canal and  oil  pipeline
across Panama--with  nuclear warheads!  It can still be done from
quite a distance away from Panama!  So be it.

What of Romania?  Oh dear ones, it is the  Time  of  Chaos.  What
more is there  to say about it?  These are the painful times.  No
"Christmas" in Bethlehem?  There  has  been  no  celebration  for
years, so what  is different?  And what is the concern?  That the
trinkets for the tourists will not be sold again and the  economy
will suffer  loss  again.    These  are the signs of these times!
Keep your eyes toward what  is  really  under  way--the  hand  is
quicker than the eye if you do not pay most close attention.

Back to our subject for this journal please.

* * *

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 8 <<=================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 8/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:41:27 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 682



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 8 <<==============================


Esu Jmmanuel  Jesus  Sananda present.  Do you wish more labels so
that I can fit a category more suitable unto you?  Quetzel Coatl,
Zoroaster, Krishna,  Buddah,  Standing  Bear---how  many  do  you
sleeping  children  of Earth need to see that you are limited and
limiting of ones who hold so much more knowledge and wisdom  than
you that you are but infants in the cradle?  You do not recognize
of  the  cosmic  messengers  when they stand upon your head---you
simply take an aspirin  for  the  headache---along  with  liquor,
drugs  and  blot  your  minds  into  blankness  with  mantras and
meditation "to be".

You want an in-depth explanation step by step, vision  by  vision
as given to John 2,000 years ago?  Why?  You have the full vision
before your   eyes   in   vivid  color!    Stop  looking  to  the
ancient---look around you in the present.  All you  have  is  the
present---THIS MOMENT!

You   ask   about  John  and  Revelations,  Daniel,  Nostradamus,
Ezekiel----raise your heads from your beds and look  around  you.
The  time is over for speaking in riddles and puzzles--it matters
not what it "meant"--what does it mean which goes on about you in
this moment?


Topic: I AM COME - Chap 11



I am come!  I care not how you thought it would be---I  tell  you
now  how  it IS. I am Sananda--one with Creator and The Creation,
Aton, and I am come.  I have walked among you  many,  many  times
and  I  have  pleaded with you to grow and bring back balance and
harmony into this part of Creation and you have turned me and  my
hosts away.

There  will be no fluffy clouds for a "Rapture". There shall soon
be a "migration" which will take place as the  lifting  off  your
orb and into very meticulously prepared shuttle craft into Mother
ships for  holding  in  security.    There  will  also  be a mass
migration at an essence level.  Already, in  the  past  years  of
your  counting,  the  astral  planes  have been emptied and it is
getting down to you and me, brothers.  Well, you, Satan and Me.

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SATAN AND ME---YOU WILL BE  LEFT  TO  CHOOSE
AND  YOU  BETTER  BE  DOING IT RIGHT AWAY. You can look unto your
night skies and do  not  confuse  yourselves  by  thinking  those
rainbow  strobe  lights  are  twinkling  "stars".  They  are your
brothers from the cosmos at ready  for  evacuation  and  whatever
else is required of them.

You  ones  will take these new crumbs of hope as projected by the
evil ones upon your place---the  hope  of  peace  and  you  shall
grovel at  their  feet  for  more, more, more.  Just as the final
"scroll" you will consume it and at first it will be  sweet  like
honey  and  then  the  stomach  will  sour and be filled with the
stings of  the  scorpions.    You  shall  reap  devastation   and
tribulation as you have never imagined.

I  offer you my hand, my ships, my life itself and you turn away.
So be it for in the days to come ye shall  reap  that  which  you
have sowed.    Men will mock me and thee but they shall perish by
their own doing.

Creator has stayed our hands until you have the truth before  you
but the  planet  Earth  shall  not be obliterated.  Almost all of
civilization as you know it will be destroyed and, except that  I
come  with  the  hosts  from the cosmos, you will annihilate your
species.

There shall be a great shifting of the poles and  magnetic  focus
of  your  planet---it has happened before, it shall happen again.
You have been allowed to experience in manifested form  upon  the
orb  and you have been destructive to the destruction of the life
source itself--that which is called the Mother Source.  You  have
unbalanced  your  world  and  she  shall  turn  upon her axis and
nothing shall remain as before in unchanged manner.  Even that of
the old which remains for the new beginning shall be  changed  in
topography.

You  are  down  to  the  very  last  few "years" of your counting
framework and you had better stop picking at one another and  get
into action to prepare for the time at hand.

Stop  your  waiting  for me to show up on the fluffy clouds; I am
already there and it has naught to do with clouds.  Your illusion
world is coming to a screeching halt and you are  going  to  move
into  the  truth  of  reality---how  you  choose to experience it
remains in your free-will decision.  Just as evil  has  grown  in
unbounded measure to overflow this land of Satan's playground--so
have  the  hosts  of  heaven  been  transferred to you in numbers
sufficient to be the "ground forces" of the mighty fleets.

Why do you linger in your asking about the 3 and  1/2  years  and
the  7  years  and  the 29 years and the ten horns and the little
horn---look about you.  Those were  clues  to  get  you  to  this
point.  You quarrel and pick and ponder while you could have made
your  decision---most  of  you will still be in the pondering and
arguing when the end is come.

The seventh seal which was not to have been  explained  in  those
ancient  days  is  open and needs no explaining---LOOK ABOUT YOUR
WORLD!  SHE CAN NO LONGER BE SUSTAINED IN HER INJURED UNBALANCE.

These lessons are being given forth that you can  see,  know  and
understand.   They  are being put to documents for the history of
mankind to be kept in safe-keeping places for the generations  to
come.

The  ancient  oral teachings are coming forth right now also, pay
attention to what is told unto you for they, too, are  being  put
to  document  that you can understand and the generations to come
in the new cycle will know at the proper sequence of  that  which
will come  unto  them.  Through the cycles of generations of soul
experience the play does not change--only the players.

Further, in the ending--there is  but  one  player  and  you  had
better come into the understanding of that fact!

Yours  is  to  go forward and experience in the next dimension of
understanding.  The old shall be cast away  from  your  memories.
Those  who have not grown into knowledge of truth are destined to
repeat the experiences of history.  Those of you  who  "graduate"
shall move  on  into radiance and wondrous new experiences.  Some
will remain and begin the rebuilding and nurturing of  the  dense
planet during  her  healing.  The Earth herself is birthed into a
new dimension and a new frequency of experience.

At this point in your evolution you must look to  survival  of  a
species---hopefully, YOU. There is the time of severe tribulation
in   which   you  must  prepare  to  eat,  survive  nuclear  war,
pestilence, famine,  plague  and  earth  upheaval  in  increasing
bombardment.   The  word  of  truth  must be gotten to all of the
children of  the  planet.    You  have   much   work   (fun)   to
accomplish---stop  the toying in the ancient and get on with your
work.

Just as the Old Testament ended into the  New,  so  the  New  now
moves  on  to  the Newer--learn from the past--do not continue to
boil in the stew trying to turn the potato into the carrot.

Turn to the important things---get busy and allow the  saving  of
your  species  from  AIDS. Get yourselves protected and sheltered
against the soon coming day of horrendous nuclear and  beam  war,
store  your  foods  against  the famine and pestilence, fill your
vessels  against  the  days  of  no  rain,  get  your   dwellings
underground  or  protected  in  some  manner from the winds which
shall sweep across your planet from every direction at the  force
of the  mighty  tornados.    Move  beyond  your  silly  games and
recognize the truth for  it  is  most  obvious  in  "reason"  and
"logic".  Stop  waiting  for mystical magic to "save" you --- you
are going to pick yourself up and "save"  yourself  or  you  will
perish in your physical format.

No-one  is  going to snatch you off that orb--if you want off you
will stop of your games and ask to be removed--on  our  ships  by
space command.    No  clouds  to  float  on  and no evil shall be
brought  into  these  realms,  so  you  make  your  choices  and,
yes---the time to do so is NOW!

Kill the speakers and get rid of them and all you do is pave your
way with  death.    But  by  this  route will you be brought into
safety.  Except through this route shall you be  taken  home  and
off that  orb.    Hide  your  head  and  refuse  to listen and be
prepared to wave good-by.  What is the matter with you  ones---do
you not  yet  realize  that  the  physical  passes?  You can take
naught with you beyond that place now for the grave gets it  all.
Yes,  great,  great quantities of you ones shall not give up your
physical beings this time of separation from your placement---but
you will bring no worldly goods with you---we need them  not  nor
will they  be  allowed  on board.  Wondrous placement is prepared
for each of you and ample space is provided.    But  those  ships
will not be in the stand-by and waiting for you to decide on that
day of days!

Continue  in your fear and disbelief about your brothers in space
who bring their crafts to assist you and you  simply  will  bring
perishment of  the  physical forms upon your place.  We are here,
the hosts of heaven are come and at stand-by and ready---you have
a lot of work to get done and a very short time in  which  to  do
it.   The  cosmic  command  is  ready  to  assist--they  will not
intervene except as allowed by the Cosmic Councils  so  you  will
petition for the help or you will get very little.

We  shall  weep for you who choose the black road of darkness but
that is all that we shall do--Creator gave you  free-will  choice
which shall  be  honored unto the end.  You shall be cleared from
this Mother planet one way or another  for  the  Source  must  be
healed.  How you go is strictly up to you.  So be it for it shall
come to  pass  in  this  generation.    It can be a most wondrous
experience beyond that which you can imagine or ye can choose  of
the  darkness  and suffering--the joys of the flesh are lessening
every moment of your perceived existence.    You  have  become  a
miserable, sickened humanity--there is no joy remaining except in
the hearts  of those who understand the truth.  You are people of
the lie and your lot shall worsen.

I am cutting this document short, Dharma, because  of  happenings
upon  your orb we will not play longer in the game of comparative
history and visions  and  prophets.    You  had  all  better  get
integrated  with these journals and the returned prophets who are
explaining the  old,  as  well  as  working  closely  with  those
energies  who  stand  by on this side of the veil in readiness to
guide your work.

See to  that  which  Little  Crow  needs  to  manifest  the  oral
teachings  and  turn your efforts to that project, you ones of my
crew.  Understand, little chelas, that I am so well pleased  with
your  works  and I hold you in the hollow of mine hand along with
the others who have labored long in my vineyards.  You  shall  be
coming  together  rapidly now as the word goes forth and the call
is recognized.  Remember, too, the best way to defeat an enemy is
to make him your friend and co-worker.  Do not quarrel with those
who ridicule and shout obscenities at you and  your  work---bring
them  forth  into  the  light  that  we  might set the records to
straight.

There are no "little grey men" out in  these  realms  to  harm  a
living  soul  on your placement and you ones had better recognize
those stories for the lies which they are.  Your "space brothers"
are your only way off that orb!  SO BE IT AND SELAH FOR AS I HAVE
SPOKEN THESE WORDS SO DO I PLACE THE SEAL OF CREATOR UPON THEM IN
TRUTH.

Hold my hand, chela, for though the road be rough  and  dangerous
ye  shall  be given the strength to bear that which is given unto
you.  My wings can cover the whole of you.

Take leave for respite and we shall consider our  next  writings.
If  there  is  time  for  the  playing  then  we  shall allow the
enlarging of the history games.  The tapestry is  finished--enjoy
the picture but do not unravel the pieces lest they no longer fit
into  their places for you are not yet given to know ALL nor will
you be given to know  WHEN!    YOU  SHALL  WAIT  IN  PATIENCE  OR
IMPATIENCE--IT   MATTERS   NOT  EXCEPT  UNTO  YOUR  PEACE  AS  AN
INDIVIDUAL. NAUGHT SHALL  BE  BROUGHT  FORTH  BEFORE  ITS  PROPER
TIME.  NOTHING!   WE CAN SEE OF BOTH ENDS OF THE ROAD--YOU CANNOT
SEE BEYOND THY NOSE!  IN LOVE I MOVE ASIDE THAT YOU MIGHT  PONDER
THESE THINGS.

AU DAI PA DAI CUM

I AM COME AND I AM THAT ONE FOR WHOM YOU HAVE WAITED LONG--

I AM SANANDA OF CREATOR/CREATION

I PLACE MINE BENEDICTION UPON YOU ONES THAT YOU WALK IN LIGHT FOR
YOUR TIME IS AT HAND. AHO

Topic: CHAPTER 12

From: REC #1 HATONN/SANANDA

Date: THURSDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1989 8:30 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 127


Hatonn present  and  a  bit  amused at my scribe.  If I can reach
Dharma, then I can gauge that which you are  prepared  enough  to
receive.  Blessings, chela.

Panama: Possibly you will get sick of hearing about Panama and we
can get  our  "real"  work  done.    It is quite nice of the dark
forces to give us such good examples as we move  along  here  and
Panama is a grand one.

Most  of  you  will not have heard these things which I will tell
you but if you seek you shall find.  DO NOT THINK THAT WE CONDONE
MR. NORIEGA'S ACTIVITIES BUT WE DO  CONDONE  THEM  MORE  THAN  WE
CONDONE  THE  ACTIONS  OF  YOUR  GOVERNMENT.  I  SHALL  EFFORT AT
BREVITY.

From the beginning Mr. Noriega was working within  the  contracts
and agreements set up by your government and CIA. Mr. Noriega was
a member of the CIA. He has documents to prove it.

There was NO DECLARATION OF WAR set forth by Mr. Noriega. He made
a  speech  to rally strength and said: "What the U.S. is doing is
tantamount to being in a state of war."

The soldiers who  were  involved  in  "incidents"  were  sent  in
deliberately  in  civilian  clothes to precipitate an "incident".
There was not even a hint of the Noriega troops  doing  any  harm
whatsoever to any American citizens.

There  were no valid elections, there were nine different parties
in the running---Mr.  Noriega  got  more  votes  for  a  "single"
candidate than   did   any   others.    Further,  the  opposition
candidates were beaten by "paid" radicals to place the  blame  on
Mr. Noriega.

Mr.  Noriega  has  evidence  that  will  incriminate  the highest
officers in your government.

There is no intent to capture this  man---your  government  wants
him DEAD!    The  whole world has an opportunity to begin to save
itself but all you hear is "praise to Mr. Bush"!  You are hearing
your death knell as a remotely free people.

Mr. Bush "sent in troops to protect U.S.  citizens,  etc.,  blah,
blah, blah!"   Two deliberately staged incidents and now you have
an army out at Christmas, the entire of Panama City  in  shambles
and  looting,  hostages  on both sides, Panama citizens afraid to
walk outside and hundreds upon hundreds of people wounded, maimed
and dead.

Forty-five minutes prior to the U.S.  invasion,  and  under  U.S.
protection    and   supervision,   the   ruling   authority   was
inaugurated--by  the  Americans-----the   American   government's
choice!

You  now have a General who is in charge of the elite Delta force
of the U.S. of A. wanting to go right on "down  through  Colombia
and  the  other  Central  American countries and clean them out".
And, further, he "wants Mr. Noriega bagged and tagged" and  gives
a  dozen  reasons why he will be caught dead and not brought back
for trial - anywhere.

Meanwhile, nice little  dumb  Senators  and  Representatives  are
pleading  with  Noriega's  Florida attorney to get him to get Mr.
Noriega to "surrender" for a fair trial.   The  attorney's  calls
were    never    returned    nor    accepted    by    anyone   of
authority---especially Mr. Chaney (Secretary of Defense).

The "indictments" against Mr. Noriega were so  flimsy  that  they
were  set  aside  by  your own grand-jury and in fact, Mr. Reagan
offered Mr. Noriega the dropping of all charges against him if he
would leave Panama -- "for a vacation"!

Mr. Noriega would never make it far enough to ever  even  get  to
trial  if he "surrendered". He can pull the government noose down
and finish off the job that the Contra Iran-gate didn't manage.

No, you blind little citizens, who think  you  are  fighting  for
your  children's  lives  against  drugs--you  are  sheep  to  the
slaughter and you push and shove to  be  first  in  line  to  the
butchers.  And  WHO  demands  the  sale  of these drugs?  YOU THE
PEOPLE OF THE U.S.---YOU DEMAND THEM. I HOPE THAT A  FEW  OF  YOU
FEEL QUITE FOOLISH AND YOU HAD BETTER BE PRAYING THAT MR. NORIEGA
GETS AWAY AND RALLIES SOME WORLD SUPPORT--FOR YOU, AS CITIZENS OF
YOUR  WORLD, ARE UNDER SIEGE AND YOU DON'T SEEM TO EVEN RECOGNIZE
IT. YOU ARE KILLING YOUR CHILDREN--NOT MR. NORIEGA--HE IS  SIMPLY
A  CORRUPT PARTICIPANT IN THE "SYSTEM". THE "BAD BOYS OF THE GREY
RACES" ARE VIEING FOR CONTROL, MY DEARS, NO MORE AND NO LESS.

OH YES, THERE ARE THE GREY RACES, THE GREY MEN, THE  GREY  ALIENS
AND  THEY ALL MAKE UP THE BLACK FORCES. AND FINALLY, YOU ONES ARE
GETTING AROUND TO SENDING ME THE RIGHT KIND OF QUESTIONS TO WHICH
I CAN RESPOND. I AM MOST JOYFUL THIS DAY AND  I  THANK  ONES  WHO
HAVE  SENT  THESE  THINGS INTO MY ATTENTION FOR THIS IS THE ROUTE
THE INFORMATION MUST TAKE.

If we do not handle our information properly  and  carefully,  we
shall  be  lumped in the same pile of garbage as the other U.F.O.
touters and misinformers.  Ours  is  not  to  cause  trouble,  we
simply  wish  to  wake  you  sleeping  team-members  up from your
slumber---the A-team has  been  at  rest  while  the  S-team  has
cleaned up  at  the  scoring  line.   Perhaps you of the Pleiades
Command on Planet Earth are too weary  to  get  off  your  duffs.
Don't blame Space Command for your lack of action.  I am going to
tell you some hard truths:


Topic: HARD TRUTHS - Chap 12


SEMJASE:  "In the past we have witnessed those who were unable to
determine the truth or were frightened when confronted  with  it;
this serves  no  purpose  for  terrestrial man or ourselves.  The
fear must never be present at all.  Men  hold  the  truth  within
themselves and must only know this to find it."  1976.

HERMES:  "Listen  to your inner selves and look into the infinity
of space and time.  There reverberate the songs of the stars  and
the harmony of the spheres.

"Each  sun  is  a thought of Creation, each planet a mode of that
thought.  In order that you may know divine thought, O souls, you
painfully descend along the paths of the seven planets and  their
seven heavens and ascend once again.

"What do the  stars  do?    What do the numbers say?  What do the
spheres revolve?  O souls that are lost and saved,  they  relate,
they sing, they revolve your destinies."

PROFESSOR  THOMAS  GOLD,  Cornell  University: "Life on Earth may
have started when space men landed here billions of years ago."

LUCRETIUS, 99-55 B: "All this visible universe is not  unique  in
nature  and  we  must believe that there are, in other regions of
space, other beings and other men."

DR.  FELIX  ZIGEL,  Moscow  Institute  of  Aviation:   "The   UFO
phenomenon is  a  challenge  to  mankind.    It  is  the  duty of
scientists to take up this challenge, to disclose the  nature  of
the UFO, and to establish the scientific truth."

JAVIER  GARZON,  National  Astronomical Observatory, Mexico City:
"UFO's really exist and apparently come from other planets."

VON PAPST JOHANNES XXIII, Pier Carpi, 1935, (German trans.)  "The
signs are  increasing.    The  lights in the sky will appear red,
blue, green, rapidly.  They will grow.  Someone  is  coming  from
very far and wants to meet the people of the Earth. Meetings have
already taken  place.    But those who have really seen have been
silent."  SO BE IT!


Topic: MAY I INTRODUCE YOU TO YOUR ANCESTORS? - Chap 12


You are about to meet YOURSELF, so sit down if you must.  I would
like to believe you are not so foolish in  the  lie  to  fail  to
recognize your own birthright.

You  ones who quote the Bible and then deny of God's place in the
heavens and brothers from "space": JOB  38:31--"Canst  thou  bind
the  sweet  influences  of  the  Pleiades  or  loose the bands of
Orion?"

AMOS 5:8--"Seek him that maketh the seven stars  and  Orion,  and
turneth  the  shadow  of  death into morning, and maketh day dark
with night: that calleth forth the waters of the sea, and  pourth
them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name!"


Topic: THE FUTURE IS ONLY THE PAST AGAIN, THROUGH A DIFFERENT
Topic: DOOR - Chap 12



A  LITTLE  HISTORY PLEASE: Throughout time thousands of cultures,
religions, and beliefs have  been  introduced  to  this  delicate
planet you call home.  Many of these ideals and ideas conflict or
contradict  each  other  and  existing  in  every single one is a
positive/negative flow of information.  However, in  all  of  the
societies  and  civilizations  that have been researched for this
connection,  one  topic  remains  alluded  to  as  a   consistent
"enlightening" force.    This  singular common denominator, which
can be found in the earliest texts and legends, is the mystifying
cluster of suns which are THE PLEIADES.

DEAR ONES, THE ANCIENTS AND THE  RELATIVELY  RECENT  CITIZENS  OF
TRUTH  RECOGNIZE THE PLEIADES AS THE "HOME OF GOD" OR "THE CENTER
OF THE UNIVERSE WHERE GOD ABIDES" AND "THE SEAT OF IMMORTALITY".

In your late year about 2690--B, the "Yellow Emperor"  of  China,
Huang-Ti,  in  whose reign miraculous progress was made (utensils
of wood, clay and metal were manufactured; boats and  carts  were
constructed   and   utilized  and  the  medium  of  currency  was
originated.   Provinces  of  the  vast   country   were   mapped,
accupressure  and  accupuncture  became  sciences),  acknowledged
liberally  that  this   rapid   development   came   forth   from
conversations held in court with his consultants--beings from the
Pleiades.

The  HOPI  named  them  "Choo  ho  kan",  meaning those who cling
together, and they, too, consider themselves  direct  descendants
of the  inhabitants  of  the  cluster.   The Hopi, as well as the
Navajo and Sioux, along  with  many  other  tribes  and  cultures
dispersed  around the world, used a calendar that allowed them to
chart the seasons,  special  events  and  ceremonial  rites  with
uncanny accuracy.   They used a system based on a 260 day "Sacred
Round", or minor cycle, and a 365 day year, a major  cycle  which
equaled  a  period  between  the  midnight  culminations  of  the
Pleiades. Any day calculated on these  cycles  would  not  repeat
itself for 18,980 days or 52 years.

In  the "Kiva of the Mesas" (Sacred Temple of the Mesas) the Hopi
ceremoniously "light the new fire".  This occurs every  52  years
when  the  temple's  sacred  points align with the stars, Choo ho
kan.  All  fires  are  extinguished  throughout  the  nation  and
rekindled from a sacred fire produced by the holy men.  The young
men  of  the  tribe learn the importance of the Pleiades early in
life, for initiation into the spiritual  ways  takes  place  only
when the cherished cluster is directly overhead at night.

The  CREEKS  claim to have come to Earth from the stars in spirit
form to become flesh and blood.  Each year a medicine man who has
served the apprenticeship of seven years performs the "green corn
dance" where he takes seven ears of corn from seven fields of the
seven clans to insure a healthy harvest.

The Dakota Ehanni stories (tales of the  world  previous  to  the
Dakota  emergence)  speak  of  the  Tayamni,  the  home  of their
ancestors, and the  reason  for  the  seven  tribes  .  .  .  the
Pleiades. The Seven Sisters play a major role in their history as
well as  their  present  day  culture.    In  May,  the  Month of
Hanblaceya,  the  Dakota/Lakota  communicate  with  the  spirits.
Astronomy  tells  you  that the Pleiades rise with the sun in May
and the Lakota oral history  tells  you  that  the  home  of  the
spirits  is  the Pleiades. The older Dakota/Lakotas say that when
you die, your spirit goes to the Milky Way and turns south . .  .
south to the Seven Stars!

YOU  NOW  KNOW  WHY  LITTLE CROW, LAKOTA SOUIX AND WAMBLESHA FROM
WAKAN TANKA ATON, SHALL BE PUTTING THE ORAL TRUTHS FORTH FOR YOUR
CONFIRMATION. YOU OF OUR BELOVED BROTHERS COME FROM US,  WITH  US
AND ARE OF US---OF PLEIADES.

HIS  JOURNAL  SHALL MOST LIKELY BE LABELED THE SACRED HILL WITHIN
AND SHALL COME FORTH AMONG THESE JOURNALS OF THE  PHOENIX---SOON.
I  SUGGEST  EVERYONE READING THESE WORDS GET IN EARLY LINE FOR IT
IS THE MOST PRECIOUS DOCUMENT TO EVER BE BROUGHT FORTH UPON  YOUR
PLACEMENT. AHO!

The  NAVAJO  named  the  sparkling  suns  of  the  Pleiades,  the
"Dilyehe", the OSAGE believe  their  society  was  once  pure  of
spirit  and journeyed from those stars to the Earth. The IROQUOIS
believe the twinkling orbs represent seven young people who guard
the holy seed throughout the night.


Topic: NOTE  OF INTEREST - Chap 12


The Hohokam, a Pima  word  meaning  "that  which  has  vanished",
disappeared from the arid Arizona desert they had so successfully
irrigated and  tamed.    Although no one will ever be certain why
they vanished or where they went, legend claims they returned  to
their home  in  the  stars.   Truth is far stranger than fiction,
chelas.

Note #2: 1980 and 1981 witnessed a Native American exodus to  the
lush  green  hills  of Canton Zurich. Tribal leaders and medicine
men from across the continental  U.S.  had  caught  word  of  the
on-going experiences  and sought out the contactee.  They came to
congratulate him for his courage and to compare  their  histories
and  prophecies  to  those  of the visitors from the Seven Stars.
Astounding as that might seem to you doubtful ones, the  majority
of  concepts  were a unified thought shared by "Earth-humans" and
Pleiadians alike.

I HEARTILY SUGGEST YOU STOP YOUR PICKING AND PAY  ATTENTION.  THE
TIME  IS  AT  HAND FOR YOU TO LEARN OF THESE THINGS FOR IT IS THE
CYCLE OF THE TIMES WHICH  SHALL  BRING  YOU  HOME  AGAIN.  AND  I
BELIEVE  YOU  BEGIN  TO  GET  A  GLIMMER OF WHERE "HOME" MIGHT BE
LOCATED AND HOW YOU ARE GOING TO GET THERE, LITTLE BROTHERS!


Topic: HONOR TO A BROTHER - Chap 12



I am going to give honor and appreciation to a brother.  I  shall
endeavor to  keep  him  in security and anonymous.  I am in great
appreciation for his service and information relay  and  I  trust
the  appropriate  personage  to get this response into his hands.
Selah.

I shall quote and then comment: "Allow me to  share  some  of  my
contact  experiences,  at  some  risk,  but  all for the cause of
saving the planet's life cycles, and ending the conspiracy of the
world  Order  and  their  Bilderbergers,  just  agents,  who  are
ordering  the  overthrow of democratically-governed countries and
the  torture  and  executions  (85,000,  El   Salvador;   65,000,
Nicaragua;  100,000,  Guatemala;  1,000,000+,  Cambodia;  a whole
generation of mothers and fathers  in  Argentina;  20,000  Blacks
with  decapitated  legs,  Namibia,  etc.) of millions of innocent
common people who protest the social oppression and barbarisms of
the sociopathic industrial elitists and the "ricos".

I SUGGEST YOU RUSH TO YOUR NEAREST  TELEPHONE  AND  CALL  AMERICA
WEST   PUBLISHERS  AND  OBTAIN  SPACE-GATE,  SPIRAL  TO  ECONOMIC
DISASTER, IN FACT, ALL  OF  THE  "PHOENIX  JOURNALS"  ALONG  WITH
GETTING  ON THE LIST FOR THE SACRED HILL WITHIN AND A BOOK CALLED
BRACE YOURSELF, THERE'S MORE.

The anonymous author of the  latter  document  petitioned  us  to
intervene in the heinous murders referred to above.  A lot of you
don't understand  why  we cannot intervene.  You know, it is that
you want to hear it again and again so that you can come to  some
inner balance  within  yourselves.  Nonetheless, I shall continue
to quote herein:

"I'm the one who expressed disappointment to  a  Pleiadean  about
their not intervening directly to rescue these people being slain
(the  Law  of  Compassion,  and  the  Golden Rule). It is not our
karmic destiny and problem alone.  It is also the karmic  problem
of  the  Pleiadeans obviously, as they are, for one, here, and we
were one.    They  and  we  were  the  Elders  from   the   Orion
Constellation   (Horseheas   Nebula,   Rigel,   Beetleguese)  who
colonized both Mars and the Earth (Terra). Our secret  government
and  NASA know all these things, they have walked about the ruins
on Mars, our sister planet which had its life cycles poisoned and
virtually killed, just as we're now doing here  (Mars  originally
had oceans,  forests,  atmosphere)."   This is not to offend this
author but some of these mentioned places are a bit incorrect  in
spelling, i.e.  human maps refer to "Betelgeuse", etc.  Do not be
distracted by  such drivel, readers.  Included at the end of this
document is a diagram of your winter  heavens  and  a  sketch  of
Pleiades.  Another  thing you might note herein, is that The Ring
Nebula of Lyra, is referred to by Pleiadians (you) as "The Eye of
God". I further ask Philus Ranos to pay attention  to  Cassiopeia
and see if there is anything familiar.

Continue  quote:  "When  our  colonies  on  Atlantis  and Lemuria
finally broke up (all verified by laser enhanced sonar and  video
by  specially  outfitted  U.S.  and Soviet submarines and craft),
some of  us  sailed  to  the  Pyrennes,  others  to  the  Yucatan
peninsula, but  others  had  left  the Earth prior in craft.  The
Pleiadeans are only one such group.  I have communicated directly
with another, as well."  AHO!

"You can't save the planet and its people with a book alone.  The
Order won't hesitate to eliminate you" (and then there  are  many
names mentioned which shall remain unmentioned) "and thousands of
American   and   British   aerospace   engineers,  builders,  and
scientists who have been killed trying to warn the  public  about
the  'Alternative  3'  conspiracy"  (SEE  SPACE-GATE) "(cancelled
20/20 program)".  Why?  Not technology (the Moon and Mars  bases)
as Frank  Edwards  and Keyhoe correctly reasoned.  But partly due
to the Deal with the Reticulians in 1948-49 for some anti-gravity
technology in exchange  for  family  abductions  and  mass  cross
fertilizations  ("MISSING  TIME", "INTRUDERS", and especially the
identity of the Order, the World Banks, the Protocols  of  _____,
and the plan to oppress the working class people economically.

"There  are a few of us who are aware that we are here karmically
to fight the conspiracy, an old battle.  Not just the  Reticulian
bases  the  U.S.  CIA  built  at Groom Lake facility, Nellis AFB,
Nevada and Dulce, New Mexico, but also the  reptilian  people  of
Osirius  who  have  three  invasion bases here and who caused, in
effect, the destruction of the colonies on  Mars  and  the  Earth
11,400  years  ago  as  'Mars  and  Venus  battled in the skies'.
Please confirm all this with Hatonn."


Topic: SO BE IT! ASK AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE MORE
Topic: THAN YOU WANTED!  - Chap 12



As I have told these ones over and over and  over  again---IT  IS
NOT  THE  LITTLE GREY MEN FROM SPACE THAT ARE HERE TO GETCHA---IT
IS THE GREY MEN RIGHT ON YOUR PLACEMENT!

Yes, there are bases  there  on  your  place.    There  are  some
dastardly  beings  within those bases---mostly, however, they are
flesh and blood "good old boys" of the conspiracy.  There are not
body-snatchers, however, who fly around in  space  craft  nailing
unsuspecting bodies.      Those   are  planned  and  orchestrated
abductions to scare the living daylights out of you people so you
will be terrified of all space men and U.F.O's. who might venture
into your space.

Earth became a prison planet some eons ago.  The head of the dark
energies was sent here, for heavens sake, as punishment for those
things perpetrated elsewhere in the cosmos.   What  do  you  ones
expect---he  pulled  all  his  thugs  along  with him and he most
certainly will not fold his tent easily and fly into  the  bright
morning skies---for  one  thing---he cannot!  The Grey Conspiracy
has been trying to locate an  achievable  placement  to  "escape"
unto.   In  exchange for technology they promised much to several
races of space dwellers who are in gross trouble.    These  ones,
however,  came  in good intent and honestly felt there could be a
working relationship  with  man  of  Earth  who  is  in  terrible
circumstance.  Ah yes, the Grey Men of the Conspiracy can get off
your  planet but they don't have a very desirable place when they
get there.  They are, however, frantic to gain expertise for they
know that ultimately there is such unbalance here that the planet
will shift.

Their objective is to rid this planet of  enough  inhabitants  to
allow it  to  re-balance itself so they won't have to leave.  The
only thing they have to offer  to  ET's  is  control,  money  and
worldly goods.    These  things are not of value to anyone in the
cosmos who has achieved truth.

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 9 <<=================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 9/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:43:27 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 884


====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 9 <<==============================



Please understand that you as a civilization of  thoughtforms  of
the  Creator source were given this place on which to EXPERIENCE.
We work within the Laws  of  Creation  first,  the  Laws  of  God
secondly and we are bound by constraints beyond that which you in
your awakening  cannot  yet  remember.    WE  ARE  NOT ALLOWED TO
INTERVENE. WHEN WE DO COME, EVEN TO YOUR SURFACE TO  GET  YOU  OF
OUR OWN BROTHERS, WE MUST HAVE SPECIAL DISPENSATION. WE ARE BOUND
BY  COSMIC  LAW  TO  KEEP OUT OF YOUR BUSINESS----THOSE WHO BREAK
THOSE LAWS SHALL PAY MOST DEARLY. THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE SO--THEY
FORFEITED THEIR RIGHT TO RETURN TO  THE  UNIVERSAL  SKYWAYS--THEY
ARE  BOUND TO YOUR DYING PLANET. THOSE WHO CAME IN PEACE AND AS A
PORTION OF THE COSMIC PLAN, DO THEIR  WORK  IN  RESEARCH  THROUGH
PRIOR  AGREEMENTS  WITH  THE ENTITIES INVOLVED. THEY DO NOT HARM,
THEY DO NOT MUTILATE ANIMALS OR HUMANS AND THEY DO WONDROUS  GOOD
FOR YOUR SPECIES.

You  ones do not seem to remember---you will not drift up to some
fluffy cloud and fly around with a Master Christos. You  will  be
picked  up  by  space  craft  and beamed through a high frequency
light beam.  We have had years upon  years  of  ongoing  research
between  thee  and  we  to  establish the ability to get the most
possible humans through that light beam in safety.    That  means
studies  of  blood  effects,  frequency  increase  to unthinkable
levels above your norm, frequency decrease for us to the point of
almost sacrificing our own beings.    YOUR  SPACE  BROTHERS  RISK
THEIR VERY BEINGS TO COME TO ASSIST YOU.

We know that you are weary and lonely and feel deserted---you are
not---we  are  here  and  some  of  us  are  among  you  in  full
operation.  We can only work in this manner.  So be it  with  the
dark energies also---they work exactly like we, except they had a
great  head-start  and  all  of  you  helped them get in control.
Not-with-standing, however, they shall  not  ultimately  prevail.
Further,  we  must remain in ultimate care of you daring ones for
it is most dangerous indeed for all the reasons you have  alluded
unto.

We have to guard this scribe every breath of her life.  Ones come
forth  in  the  claim  of  friendship  and  service unto the very
Sananda and would kill her work and her very being.  They  effort
at  frame-ups  of  all sorts--surveillance is heavier around this
placement from the "conspiracy" than around the Pentagon.

They have motion  picture  studios  to  build,  survival  models,
general  industrial businesses, etc., etc., and all from terrible
disadvantage.  But it can be done and it will  be  done---and  it
will be done legally and safely.

The  most  important one thing at this moment, however, is to get
the truth unto the  citizenry  in  such  manner  that  belief  is
feasible---believe it or not, our showing up in great mass is not
the answer--yet!

The U.F.O.  landing  in  Russia is only half reported.  The craft
crew  were   immediately   taken   into   custody,   beaten   and
incarcerated.   If  you dig around a bit you will find the proof.
That crew thought that village was ready for their  landing---the
village  was, the authorities were not and acted on direct orders
from the Grey Conspiracy.

In your density our craft and our  crews  are  as  vulnerable  as
you.  Anytime vibrations are lowered to visible manifestation you
can damage  severely.  Some of us are etheric and are safe---most
of your brothers are fourth dimensional higher  beings  than  you
but more like you than you can conceive.  Be patient and gracious
with your comrades for they work ceaselessly in your behalf.  You
know  that  the  ultimate  end  shall be in the prevailing of the
light forces for the evil cannot endure.  Evil thrives upon  evil
and when the evil is ultimately removed it devours itself and the
little  hangers-on  swing  instantly  around  into  the light the
moment the controlling leaders are removed.

The Law of God forbids the interference of FREE-WILL CHOICE AMONG
HUMANS. No one is allowed, nor has any desire, to interfere  with
that which  you  choose to do.  It is saddening to us to see that
which happens but it is not for US to change of  it---it  IS  for
YOU to change of it.

There  is  a  most  pertinent and sad statement made by the above
author: "I won't mention names but those  who  promote  the  idea
that  it  is  'communists'  who  are behind all this 'Order', are
infiltrators, 'moles', working for the conspiracy, and  they  are
dangerous  for  the  'Cause'  (they  use  the principle of direct
reversal with the abstract hemisphere of the brain, "not us,  but
they",  "Deadly Deceits", Ralph McGehee; "Washington's Secret War
Against Afghanistan", Philip Bonosky). And they sit  in  the  UFO
Conferences and  monitor  everyone.    Finally,  they control the
media.  The people of the U.S. are the most misinformed people of
the world about what is happening internationally.

"After you have conveyed these thoughts to Hatonn,  Semjase,  and
her  dad, and had all this complicated and most subtle conspiracy
and cosmic history and battle confirmed, then  perhaps  you  will
feel that time is running out fast for us."

Salu, and  thank  you,  friend.   By the way, Semjase's father is
Semjasa---a most respected individual indeed.   I  toy  with  the
fact, for  of  course,  he  is also your father.  Semjasa was the
heavenly son and guardian angel of God, Aton, the great ruler  of
those  who traveled from Pleiades. Your portion of the human race
(the white race) on earth was conceived  through  him---Adam  was
his son.    And,  dear  ones,  the  ancients  were already aboard
Earth-ship!  Please see AND THEY CALLED HIS NAME  IMMANUEL--I  AM
SANANDA.

The cycle  is  ending---the  circle  closing.    Be patient a bit
longer  for  the  pain  shall  be  greater  yet   and   in   your
consciousness  you  shall  not understand but it is coming in the
only manner in which it can.  Beloved ones, do not  have  despair
and  do  not fall to false ones or tales in your impatience---let
us get the word forth to all men and ye shall  see  wondrous  and
miraculous  changes  begin to flow as man comes into the truth of
who HE IS. GOD USES NOT FORCE UPON  HIS  CHILDREN---IF  THERE  IS
"FORCE", IT IS NOT OF GOD!

So be  it, chela, for this session.  It shall at first be hard to
absorb but the logic and truth will come into fulness as you ones
ponder these things.

I move to stand-by---always in thy service.

I AM HATONN

TO STAND-BY AND CLEARING FREQUENCY.


Topic: CHAPTER 13

From: REC #1 HATONN

Date: FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 1989 8:00 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 128


Hatonn present in light and truth.  Dharma, it is most  necessary
that  we  sidestep  the  "fun"  revelations  to  explain and give
substantial evidence for confirmation of some of the things which
we have projected to you.    Ones  are  having  a  terrible  time
believing  old  space cadets, therefore, we have to give you ones
more quotes and document references.

I would prefer to not do it in this  journal  but  the  next  few
weeks  shall  be  filled  with the Ancient Oral Teachings and the
public must have more of  this  information.    There  are  other
excellent  resources  but  we  need  to  continue  to  build  our
credibility.  Further, documents keep coming forth which are, for
the most part, factual but in total are not.  You  ones  must  be
given that which is truth and guided a bit farther regarding that
which is  not.   You will hone your discernment abilities quickly
as you gain insight into the whole blueprint.


Topic: THE DILEMMA OF EVIL - Chap 13



It is important for you ones to know what is going on  about  you
and  further,  WHY the workers of the evil coalition must work so
hard at "winning".

Those energy forms from  the  higher  dimensions  who  have  been
"placed"  on  your  planet  cannot move into a higher dimensional
existence without throwing off of the evil.  They are simply  not
allowed in  the  Universal realms.  They are dense, low frequency
beings who cannot survive the  high  frequency  vibrations  of  a
higher dimension.  In other words, they are isolated and bound to
a third,  or lower, dimension.  Oh yes, they can have "invisible"
energy  form  but  they  cannot  bear  the  compression  of  high
frequency.

The  desire,  therefore,  is  to  pull as many soul energies into
density as possible, gain control of the planet  politically  and
economically  and  kill  off the overpopulation and free up lands
and resources----hopefully to maintain enough balance to  prevent
the pole shifting.

Backup  plan,  for  they  do  not  expect  the  above  plan to be
successful,  is  to  have  a  placement  prepared  in   a   third
dimensionally  secure  place  to "ride-out" the period of time of
earth shift.

You ones  were  given  a  most  beauteous  place  upon  which  to
function,  experience and clean up your souls---most have flunked
the course.  The alternative places for the dense energies to  be
placed are most hard indeed---souls do not perish you know, and a
low  density  energy form has only extremely horrendous places to
be kept.  Not all dense souls are evil---most are simply ignorant
and hold to false leaders--the  results  remain  about  the  same
either way.

Our effort is to point out the truth so that you ones can see the
negative blueprint and make some informed choices.  I do tell you
now  that  it  is  not  like  your  ordinary  indoctrinated Bible
teachers will tell you, with one major exception---if you do  not
come  into  the  path  of light and truth you will have made your
choice to remain in the heavy density, at which  point  when  the
changing   upheaval   comes,  your  physical  house  will  be  in
perishment.  The lower astral planes are most heinous indeed  and
thus do we work to raise your insight and knowledge of the way it
is and  not the way your leaders tell you it is.  You can see all
about you that it is not the way they tell you it is.

We of these higher realms will only provide truth--no force shall
be applied for force is not of God. You each shall have to be  in
individual deciding.

I  shall  again be utilizing data already brought forth from both
our books and bits and pieces from  myriads  of  other  journals,
periodicals   and  publications---this  will  be  quite  strictly
documented for your research.  Dharma, bear with me, chela, for I
know it is difficult for you to work  in  blindness  as  to  that
which I  give  unto  you.    I  shall, however, also give you the
places to check that you might later come into your own  comfort.
Yes, precious,  I  am here in Light and your space is clear.  Our
same old friends are monitoring the work but truth is  truth  and
your surveillance  personnel need the truth also.  As I have told
you, our very best workers today are prior surveillance personnel
who monitored our centers.  Most people do not want to be  people
of  the  lie  but  they have followed most blindly that which has
been told unto them.


Topic: ALLIES AND CO-WORKERS - Chap 13


The most outrageous outcry to Hatonn is,  "Russia  and  the  U.S.
have not been  allies!"  Yes you have and yes you are!  It is for
the purpose of world control.  Oh, I hate to have to be  the  one
to bring this stark realization unto you.  I drew the short straw
again.   I  would  just  refer you ones to other references but I
fear most of you will not obtain the information  if  we  do  not
place of it herein.

Now I am going to take some information verbatim from information
that  comes  forth  on a printed, separate page with the book THE
PLAN. Forgive me, brothers, for using your  material  but  it  is
exceptional and must be shared with as many as we can reach.


Topic: THE SOVIET EMPIRE COLLAPSING?

Topic: GLASNOST AND PERESTROIKA FOR REAL?  - Chap 13

DON'T BELIEVE IT!

WE  vigorously  resist  the  media-generated  mindset that Soviet
Communist Party thugs--those very same  maniacs  who  slaughtered
over one million people in Afghanistan and sent five million more
fleeing  to  refugee  camps--are  now  suddenly  kindly reformers
willing to yield power to the downtrodden masses.

The seemingly cataclysmic events  taking  place  in  Soviet  Bloc
nations  are  part  of a CAREFULLY PLANNED public relations scam.
The Communist machine is only changing party names, and  changing
faces for   esthetics.    As  the  New  York  Times  admits,  the
Communists in Poland, for instance, retain "a  strangle  grip  on
the  army  and the police, the principal tools of social control,
and  over  the  national  television  and  radio,  the  principal
instruments of its propaganda."

When  the dust of Soviet "reform" finally settles, the world will
inevitably discover that the Communist totalitarian machine still
holds absolute  power  in  the  U.S.S.R.  and  in  its  satellite
nations.   All economic and political activity will be controlled
by the Reds and their secret police apparatus.    All  propaganda
outlets  and  all  wealth  will  be  controlled  by the Reds. All
weapons will remain in the hands of the Reds.

Soviet Communist Party head Mikhail Gorbachev purports to be  Mr.
Nice  Guy.  Yet  the  Pentagon  tells  us that in 1989--in direct
violation of his recent pledges--he  directed  over  ONE  BILLION
dollars  in  military aid to the Nicaraguan Communists. Secretary
of State James Baker admits that the  Soviets  are  now  actively
arming the murderous Communist rebels in El Salvador. Congressman
Bill  McCollum  (R-Fla.)  reports  that  the  Soviets  are behind
round-the-clock bombing in Afghanistan where  the  Soviet  puppet
government  is  destroying  all  remnants  of  Afghan  resistance
there.  The American Psychiatric Association recently found  that
Soviet  mental institutions STILL incarcerate political prisoners
and it has been verified that patients are STILL being  crucified
with   pain-causing   psychotropic   drugs   used   for  behavior
modification.  According  to  recent  A.P.  reports,  the  Soviet
police STILL  beat  protesters  with  truncheons.  The only thing
that has changed about the Soviets is their: IMAGE!

To those who have studied THE PLAN, it is blatantly obvious  that
the  glasnost  scam was developed to augment the impending merger
of all nations under  a  global  socialist  governing  authority.
According  to U.S. government documents, this all-powerful global
authority is slated to be backed  by  a  military  machine  which
controls ALL of the world's conventional and nuclear weapons.

Glasnost  is  a  strategic  political  vehicle  used to condition
Americans  to  accept  UNILATERAL  DISARMAMENT  OF   THE   U.S.A.
Headlines   are   screeching  that  "international  tensions  are
decreasing" and the  U.S.  faces  "dramatic  military  cutbacks."
Such  drastic  military  cutbacks  preface  the U.S. Government's
PUBLISHED PLAN to  surrender  all  U.S.  weapons  to  the  United
Nations  military apparatus which, by international agreement, is
operated AT THE TOP BY SOVIETS.


Topic: AMERICA IS BEING SET UP FOR LITERAL SUICIDE. - Chap 13


Of great importance, glasnost provides rationale  for  channeling
billions  of  American  dollars  to  Red  governments,  including
Communist Nicaragua which  just  raked  in  several  millions  in
"election"  funds,  compliments  of  George  Bush.  Without  this
emergency funding, the despised  and  rotting  Communist  machine
would collapse.  In keeping with the declaration of Joseph Stalin
that the "rich" nations of the world must be harnessed to provide
"real and prolonged aid" to Communist nations, Sugar Daddy George
and  the  Congress  have  just  pledged  hundreds  of millions of
dollars to  Hungary  and  Poland.  This  money  was  pledged  (no
questions  asked) despite the fact that these Warsaw Pact nations
are an important part of the Soviet military machine  which  now,
MORE THAN  EVER,  threatens  America's  existence.   (Hatonn: And
despite the fact that the debt already owed by those countries to
you taxpayers--is positively staggering.)

U.S. economic aid will enable the Soviets to  continue  financing
terrorism and  bloody  revolution  worldwide.  This aid will also
enable the Soviets to pay interest to  the  Western  bankers  who
back Communist governments with massive loans.

While  Bush  hands  out  money  in  wads, America's national debt
increases by EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS per  EVERY  SECOND  of  EVERY
HOUR  of EVERY DAY. The major portion of this debt is owed to the
SAME Soviet-loving bankers  who,  through  their  privately-owned
Federal  Reserve  System, hold federal government bonds (IOUs) on
which this debt must be paid.    Counting  unfunded  liabilities,
America is  over  13  TRILLION  DOLLARS  in  debt.   Because this
utterly impossible debt is surpassing the  total  wealth  of  the
nation, America  is  absolutely  bankrupt.    Undaunted, the Bush
regime pledges the fruits of the labor of FUTURE  generations  to
keep the Red military machine solvent today.

The  authors hope that you will take the time to study the MASTER
PLAN as outlined by the  master  planners  themselves,  and  that
after  doing  so,  you will share this important information with
anyone who will listen.  Unless we  can  warn  enough  people  in
time,  this  nation  will  surely be doomed to endure the HIDEOUS
ramifications of: THE PLAN.


Topic: ONE WORLD MERGER - Chap 13


Vladimir Lenin, the first dictator of Soviet  Russia  said,  "The
aim  of socialism is not only to bring the nations closer to each
other, but also to merge them."

Well, let's  begin  with  your  educational  system.    In  1985,
America's  public education system was officially merged with the
propaganda apparatus of the Soviet Union.  By  agreement  between
the  Carnegie  Corporation  of New York and the Soviet Academy of
Sciences,  the  Communists  of  the  Kremlin   are   helping   to
"restructure" American education from the third grade up.

There  is  an  agreement of some 40 to 50 pages negotiated by the
U.S. State Department. The Soviets now provide American  students
with   computer   curricula,   textbooks,   films   and  visiting
instructors  authorized  to  conduct  "experiments"  in  American
schools and  colleges.    This  agreement  is  to  be renewed and
up-graded at frequent intervals.

Let me tell you a little story which came out of a  congressional
committee   hearing  which  attempted  to  investigate  America's
largest, and most powerful tax-exempt foundations.

Testimony of Norman Dodd, research director of  the  above  named
committee,  who  was invited to meet with President Roman Gaither
of the Ford Foundation, in 1953 in New York,  was  met  with  the
following:  "Mr.  Dodd, we invited you to come because we thought
that perhaps, off the record, you would be kind enough to tell us
why the Congress is interested in the operations  of  foundations
such as  ourselves.    We  operate  here  under  directives which
emanate from the White House. The  substance  of  the  directives
under  which  we  operate  is  that we shall use our grant-making
power to alter life in the U.S. so that  we  can  be  comfortably
merged with the Soviet Union."

Mr.  Dodd  was  shocked and replied, "Mr. Gaither, I do not think
you are entitled to withhold this information from  the  American
people to  whom  you are beholden for your tax exemption.  So why
do you not tell the American people what you have just told me?"

His answer was: "Mr. Dodd, we would not  think  of  doing  that."
P.S.  The  powers  behind  the  Ford  Foundation control over 2.5
billion dollars in tax-free assets.  Ford is one of  the  largest
private foundations in the world.


Topic: MORE "PILLOW" AGREEMENTS - Chap 13


The  U.S.-U.S.S.R. Trade and Economic Council, the New York-based
organization published an ad in the Fall of 1985 in  the  JOURNAL
OF  THE  U.S.-U.S.S.R.  Trade  and  Economic  Council.  You  nice
Americans were  never  intended  to  see  it.    The  JOURNAL  is
published  in  the  U.S. for distribution within the Soviet Union
only.

The advertisement is for ADM (Archer  Daniels  Midland  Company),
Decatur,  Illinois 62525 USA, Telex: 25-0121 ADM-DTR. It projects
a map of the U.S. and Russia joined  at  the  borders  with  only
Decatur and  Moscow  identified.    The substance of the material
reads as follows:

"This map is far from accurate, but it does serve to illustrate a
very important point.

"As trade between  the  U.S.S.R.  and  the  U.S.  expands,  we're
growing closer and closer together.

"And that's especially true when it comes to food, feed and other
agricultural products.

"Those  who  trade  with  the  Archer Daniels Midland Company are
linked  directly  to  America's  largest  source   of   processed
agricultural products.

"They  also  have  access  to  tremendous amounts of corn, wheat,
soybeans and other grains plus the wealth of technical  knowledge
ADM has acquired over the years.

"So  even though we're 5,000 miles apart, when you trade with ADM
the distances seems to disappear."

Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), is a billion-dollar  Illinois-based
agribusiness  which sells cheap grain to the Soviets. Although it
rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars in federal subsidies for
its lucrative gasohol program.

ADM head is Dwayne Andreas, dubbed by NEWSWEEK magazine as one of
"Gorbachev's prairie pals."  Andreas, who owns  $230  million  in
ADM  stock,  makes  large contributions to America's senators and
congressmen.  In 1988, Andreas spoke  at  a  Trade  and  Economic
Council  meeting  in  Moscow.  He  assured his Soviet "pals" that
there is little difference between  the  United  States  and  the
Soviet Union these days.  He said:

"While the Soviets are adopting capitalist market economy devices
to  make  Lenin's  socialism  work  better,  we, over the past 40
years, have adopted  many  socialist  devices  intended  to  make
capitalism work  better.    In the West, state ownership of major
enterprises is long established.  And where government  does  not
own  business institutions, it is their effective partner through
tax and trade credit policies.  So we're not as far apart as many
people think."

Andreas is co-chairman of the U.S.-U.S.S.R.  Trade  and  Economic
Council.  He  also  made a bid to buy the KGB-bugged U.S. Embassy
building in Moscow in 1989.

The Council is staffed by thirty Soviet directors; the Council is
riddled with Soviet espionage  agents,  including  the  notorious
General   Yevgeniy  P.  Pitovranov,  Stalin's  favorite  protege.
Pitovranov has been identified by U.S. Intelligence as a  leading
KGB  operative  in  charge  of  acquiring  U.S.  technical  data.
Pitovranov is on the Council's  governing  board.    The  Council
continually  interviews  U.S.  businessmen in quest of technology
for the Soviet military machine.

Thus, America's leading corporate  capitalists  and  the  dreaded
Soviet KGB  are not as far apart as people might think.  One U.S.
senator says of the Trade and Economic Council:

"The Council is quite simply an arm  of  the  Soviet  government,
under   KGB  control,  whose  purpose  is  to  subvert  the  U.S.
economy.  The Communists have  always  believed  in  war  on  all
fronts--military, diplomatic,  social, and economic.  The Council
is an instrument of subversion."  Senator Jesse Helms.

In 1985, Malcolm Baldrige, who was then U.S. Commerce  Secretary,
CONFIRMED that the cozy partnership between Corporate America and
the  Soviet  KGB  has  been  arranged  by  the  U.S.  government.
Baldrige told the Soviets at a Council meeting:

"I am pleased to be here tonight  to  lend  my  support  and  the
support  of  the  United  States  government  to  the work of the
U.S.-U.S.S.R. Trade and Economic Council. More than ten years ago
the Department of Commerce  helped  establish  the  Council,  and
events since then have shown this was a wise decision."

Oh,  and  then good old boy, Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of
State, listed a number of these  earthshaking  "events"  when  he
admitted:

"Soviet  behavior  in  recent  years  has  given  the  lie to the
argument that trade and credits by themselves will bring about  a
benign evolution of the Soviet system.  Soviet-Cuban intervention
in  Angola,  in  Ethiopia,  and  in  South Yemen; the invasion of
Afghanistan; the suppression of Solidarity in Poland; and the use
of toxic chemical  and  biological  warfare  in  Afghanistan  and
Southeast  Asia  have  all  occurred  in  precisely the period of
expanded East-West economic cooperation.

I want to point out here that there are more than  three  hundred
U.S.  corporations  who  are  members  of  this  Council and more
joining daily.  Some of which you of my crew would recognize.

Further,  I  make  no  judgment  on  the  applicability  of  such
interchange---I  simply  point  out  that you as citizens are not
informed.

If  anyone  listened  to  that  which  President  Bush  told  you
yesterday at the end of his Press Conference you would understand
how really  serious  is  your  situation.    He said that he kept
secrets from the public and would most certainly continue  to  do
so  as  long  as he is President and if you don't like it you can
vote him out of office next election.  Yes, I am sure --- as  Mr.
LaRouche  is  proof  of  how  easy  it  is  to get a pre-selected
candidate out of being elected and what happens to the  ones  who
try!   Mr. La Rouche's campaign secretary, Michael Billington was
sentenced to 77 years in prison for political fundraising.   This
young  lady  and  16  other  LaRouche associates were railroaded.
Dear friends, you are in such drastic circumstance and  you  seem
to not  realize  of  it.  This man did everything in his power to
tell you how it is and you allowed this to happen  to  him.    Of
course he is not perfection----is Mr. Bush perfection?

Further,  yesterday  Mr.  Bush  told  you  between the lines that
business was never interrupted  with  China  and  that  he  gives
ultimate credit to Mr. Kissinger----OPEN YOUR EYES AND EARS!


Topic: THE GRAIN CONVEYOR BELT - Chap 13


Grain is  vital  to  the  Soviet military machine.  Grain imports
from the West allow the Soviets to concentrate their resources on
military hardware, and  on  war  and  revolution  throughout  the
world.   Without grain imports, Soviet militarism and imperialism
would fail.  Viktor  Suvorov,  an  important  defector  from  the
Soviet    military   intelligence   apparatus   (GRU),   reports:
"Socialism, for all its gigantic resources,  is  not  capable  of
feeding itself.   How easy it would be to place an embargo on the
supply of bread to the  Soviet  Union,  until  Soviet  forces  no
longer  found  themselves  in occupied Czechoslovakia, Lithuania,
Estonia and Latvia, until such time as the Cubans no longer  held
sway in Africa, until the Berlin Wall disappeared.  It would only
be  necessary to withhold supplies of grain for a few months, and
the whole edifice of socialism might fall to pieces."

Well, now you can simply send your grain directly to these places
along with the tab for their freedom building.

The full weight and authority of the U.S. government is  directed
towards  providing  ample grain for the Soviets. Since the 1960s,
the U.S. has avalanched the  U.S.S.R.  with  cheap  grain.    The
Congressional Research Service reports:

"The 1972 grain sales were characterized in the U.S. press as the
"Great  Russian  Grain  Robbery" because the tactic of minimizing
public information  about  the  size  and  suddenness  of  Soviet
purchases resulted in lower prices than would otherwise have been
obtained.  Farmers complained that they would not have sold their
grain   as   early  or  as  cheaply  had  they  known  of  Soviet
intentions.  Consumers complained about  high  food  prices  that
resulted from the large draw-down in grain stocks."

In  1983,  the  U.S. agreed to provide millions of metric tons of
grains to the Soviets for each of five years.   Yet,  during  the
five  years  this agreement was in force hundreds of thousands of
small U.S. farmers declared bankruptcy.

U.S. taxpayers underwrite all grain sales to the Soviets  because
U.S.   agriculture   is   heavily   subsidized   by  the  federal
government.  Each taxpaying family in America contributes $700 in
taxes annually to support federal farm subsidies.  Taxpayers also
subsidize the U.S. Commodity  Credit  Corporation  which  extends
credit to  the  Soviets  for  their  grain  purchases.  Taxpayers
provide huge federal export subsidies to large U.S.  corporations
for making grain available to the Reds at discount.

Under the Department of Agriculture's Export Enhancement Program,
the  Soviets buy U.S. grain for LESS THAN IT COSTS TO PRODUCE. In
late 1988, the U.S. awarded the  Soviets  a  new  two-year  grain
contract.   This  particular swindle will cost American taxpayers
an estimated $46.2 million dollars.

One news source reported: "But no one seems able to  account  for
how the Russians pay for their grain imports.  In Washington, the
question  whether,  and how, the Russians pay is considered to be
'privileged information'.   If  these  transactions  were  normal
business  deals, then surely the answer to the question, 'On what
terms are they conducted?' would not be considered  a  matter  of
privilege.  It is certain that the United States does not receive
any direct payment for these transactions."

Despite huge federal deficits, politicians never suggest that the
Soviets should  pay  full  market  value  for  their  grain.   We
conclude that the U.S. government is desperately anxious to  feed
the Soviet  military  machine.    In  order  to  do  so, the U.S.
government is "ripping off" the taxpayers and the  small  farmers
of America.  Why?    Because,  as Sovorov testifies, the means of
producing bread is "the Achilles heel of socialism--strike at  it
and socialism will fall to pieces, all invasion, nationalization,
and collectivization will cease."

You  might now ask: "Well, Hatonn, what does this have to do with
Revelations, Prophecies, and the decay of a planet and the Rising
of the Phoenix?"   So  be  it--ponder  your  own  questions  most
carefully.  It  has everything to do with it all.  Read the other
Phoenix Journals---look at what is happening to your world  while
your  string pullers feed you puppets with sugar water, drugs and
distractions.

Americans must understand that the  U.S.  government  will  NEVER
permit Soviet socialism to fall into pieces--because SOCIALISM IS
THE HEART  AND  SOUL OF THE OVERALL PLAN FOR WORLD CONTROL!  THEN
IT WILL AUTOMATICALLY FALL TO THE FEW GREY MEN  WHO  CONTROL  THE
PURSE STRINGS.


Topic: FINANCIAL ROOTS OF POWER - Chap 13


Since  this  portion  is basically regarding the Russias, I shall
only sidetrack to point out a few parallel facts.  The  U.S.  has
basically  provided  for  the  founding of Israel. Well, the U.S.
financed  the  Bolshevik   Revolution---financed   and   directed
it---from  right  in  the  U.S. That was in 1917 and it has never
changed.

President Woodrow Wilson contributed $20 million to the Bolshevik
cause from the Special War Fund set aside by Congress  for  World
War I.

Wall Street financier, Jacob Schiff, financially aligned with the
world's wealthiest families--including Rothschilds, Harrimans and
Rockefellers  (remember  who  these people are and where they fit
into the Grey Men structure) contributed  at  least  $20  million
dollars to  the  revolution.    Back  in  those good old days $20
million dollars was a very great deal of money.

International financier, J.P. Morgan, who  by  the  turn  of  the
century  wielded  monopoly control of banking and industry in the
U.S., donated a million dollars personally to the  Communists  in
Russia.

Britisher,   Lord   Alfred   Milner,  representing  the  core  of
political-economic power in  Europe,  was  personally  in  Russia
during  the  revolution  to  assist  the  Bolsheviks in obtaining
weapons.  Milner contributed a reported twenty-one million rubles
to the Marxist cause.

American businessmen and government officials provided diplomatic
and  financial  assistance  to  V.I.  Lenin  and  his   Bolshevik
revolutionaries through these corporate entities:

AMERICAN  INTERNATIONAL  CORPORATION -- J.P. Morgan W.A. HARRIMAN
COMPANY--   Harriman   family   CHASE   NATIONAL   BANK    (Chase
Manhattan)--Rockefeller/Morgan   FEDERAL   RESERVE  BANK  OF  NEW
YORK--privately  owned  FEDERAL  RESERVE   BOARD--controls   U.S.
banking  and  credit  GUARANTY TRUST COMPANY--Harriman/J.P.Morgan
NATIONAL CITY BANK--Rockefeller

BY GOLLY, I WANT ALL OF YOU  TO  PAY  ATTENTION  BECAUSE  I  WANT
EVERYONE  READING  THIS  TO  TAKE  NOTE  THAT J.P. MORGAN WAS THE
ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION OF NIKOLA TESLA!  SOMETIMES GOD GETS ANGRY!

Lenin seized gold "in purest gangster style by armed parties" not
unlike your own circumstance some time back.   He  took  it  from
Russian banks  and  from  Russian  citizens.  He used this stolen
gold to create Ruskombank,  the  first  official  Soviet  central
bank.   J.P.  Morgan's  Wall Street firm, Guaranty Trust Company,
became Lenin's fiscal agent in the  U.S.  Guaranty  Trust  (still
today  at  the apex of U.S. corporate power) operated the foreign
branch of Lenin's Ruskombank.

Now watch the sleight of hand and exchange tactics.   Immediately
after  the  revolution,  Lenin placed large deposits of gold with
Guaranty Trust and  with  other  U.S.  banks  owned  by  American
capitalists who had financed the Bolshevik Revolution. Lenin also
handed  his wealthy mentors monopoly concessions on oil, minerals
and other raw materials in Russia.

Lenin's terrorist police (Cheka) consolidated totalitarian  power
in  Russia  by  pulling  the  skin off the bones of their victims
hands like a glove; rolling naked people in  spiked  barrels  and
putting  others  into  coffins with decomposing corpses; applying
red-hot five-pointed stars to the foreheads and crowning  priests
with   wreaths  of  barbed  wire;  amputating  limbs  with  saws;
crucifying,  scalping,  dismembering  and  roasting   alive   the
proletariat.   (Now would you say that these ones sound like good
old Satanists?  They certainly do to me!)

Meanwhile back at the U.S.  Ranch,  Mr.  Wilson  and  other  U.S.
officials  were  providing Lenin with weapons and secret military
assistance.  The Rockefeller family,  having  made  a  deal  with
Lenin  to buy oil-rich property in the Caucasus, arranged for the
Bolsheviks a loan of $750 million.  Communist  tyranny  was  well
funded.

Lenin's  successor,  Joseph Stalin, deliberately starved to death
nine million Ukrainian peasants and condemned tens of millions of
political prisoners to confinement and torture  in  death  camps.
Meantime,  American firms--including DuPont, Ingersoll Rand, IBM,
Westinghouse,  U.S.  Steel  Corporation,  U.S.  Rubber,   General
Electric,  Guaranty Trust, New York Life, International Harvester
and Vacuum Oil--provided the financial and industrial foundations
of Stalin's power.  Stalin's genocidal regime was merely a  FRONT
for  a  megalithic  Wall  Street  syndicate  which included Jacob
Schiff's Kuhn Loeb  Company  of  New  York.  Kuhn  Loeb  financed
Stalin's first Five-Year Plan.

ARE ANY  OF  YOU  READERS  GETTING MAD YET?  YOU SHOULD BE MAD AS
HELL AND UNWILLING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE!

Today the Soviets, the Communist Chinese and all of their  puppet
minions  are  COMPLETELY  DEPENDENT  for  military and industrial
development   upon   the   world's   most   powerful    corporate
capitalists.    These   wealthy   businessmen   have  created  an
international network of  banks  and  government  agencies  which
undergird  Communist power by providing credit, bank bailouts and
below-market loans, many of which are guaranteed by American  and
European taxpayers.   This financial network is an umbilical cord
through which Western capitalists nourish  their  avaricious  Red
fetus.  The umbilical cord includes:

WORLD BANK/INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AGENCY--United Nations.

INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND--United Nations.

BANK OF INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS--(Swiss) apex of network.

U.S. EXPORT-IMPORT BANK--loans guaranteed by U.S. taxpayers.

CHASE   MANHATTAN  BANK,  BANK  OF  AMERICA,  IRVING  TRUST  CO.,
MANUFACTURERS  HANOVER,  CHEMICAL  BANK,  LAZARD   BROTHERS   and
hundreds of other U.S., Canadian and European Banks.

Does  it  now  make sense to you why there was no interruption in
the business with China and why there are multitudes  of  private
meetings which  you will NEVER hear about?  Further, AM I TELLING
YOU IN ENOUGH WAYS AND ENOUGH TIMES TO CAUSE YOU TO  TAKE  NOTICE
THAT THIS  IS TRUTH?  CHECK IT ALL FOR YOURSELVES---AT THE END OF
THIS JOURNAL  I  SHALL  TELL  YOU  WHERE  YOU  CAN  GET  ALL  THE
REFERENCES FOR PROOF!

I  HONOR THE ONES WHO HAVE RESEARCHED AND BROUGHT FORTH DOCUMENTS
AND PROOF OF THESE HEINOUS ACTIVITIES. YOU ARE A BLESSED AND HOLY
LAND AND YOU HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED IN A MOST TERRIBLE MANNER.  THIS
IS  A  BLATANT  SIGN OF THE TIMES OF THE REVELATIONS. YOU NEED NO
MORE DECIPHERING OF THE OLD PROPHECIES---YOU NEED TO FUNCTION  IN
THOSE THAT HAVE NOW COME TO BE IN YOUR PRESENT!

The Soviets and their puppet governments throughout the world owe
Western  banks  and  governments  over ONE HUNDRED THIRTY BILLION
DOLLARS. THIS DEBT INCREASES BY AT LEAST TWO BILLION DOLLARS  PER
MONTH.  If the Communists pulled a calculated default, they could
collapse the global monetary system.  So they blackmail the  West
into   new  below-market  loans  which  cost  the  lenders  (U.S.
taxpayers) very large sums of money indeed.  Oh, it  is  part  of
the plan but you as citizens do not know it and the guillotine is
not  yet  planned  to  crash down on you---but very, very soon it
is.

In 1988, the Soviets, nudged on  by  their  capitalist  partners,
boldly demanded revision of existing limits on Export-Import Bank
guarantees  for  loans  to the Soviet Union. This would allow the
Soviets UNLIMITED  GUARANTEES  that  if  they  default  on  their
payments  to  large  U.S.  corporations for purchase of goods and
services, the U.S. taxpayers will step in and pay the debt.

David Rockefeller is scion of one of  the  Wall  Street  families
which originally   sponsored   the   Soviet   experiment.     The
Rockefeller family is worth at  least  2  billion  dollars.    As
chairman  of  Chase Manhattan Bank, David Rockefeller addressed a
Trade and Economic Council meeting in Moscow in  1987.  He  said:
"As  early  as 1924, accounts for both the Bank for Foreign Trade
of the U.S.S.R. and the State Bank of the U.S.S.R. were opened at
the Chase Bank. In agreement to help finance the Kama River Truck
Foundry--the largest in the world."    (Kama  later  manufactured
assault  vehicles  used  for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.)
"We were also privileged  in  1973  to  open  our  representative
office  in  Moscow.  Over  the  past  several  decades,  we  have
witnessed many  ups  and  downs  in  relations  between  our  two
countries.   . .Through it all, those who are primarily concerned
with commerce, finance, and  industry  have  sought  to  maintain
economic ties that are mutually rewarding."

Sovietologist,  Richard  Pipes,  of Harvard, a former director of
East European and Soviet  Affairs  (National  Security  Council),
explains the capitalist-Communist partnership:

"The most unabashed voice in the West favoring accommodation with
the Soviet Union . . . belongs to the business community.  On the
face of it, pro-Soviet sympathies on the part of a group that the
Soviet  Union  is committed to destroying may seem absurd, but it
is a fact that only serves to emphasize the elitist character  of
the  Soviet  leadership  and  the affinities that elites feel for
each other, notwithstanding ideological or national  differences.
The  workers of all countries have never united as effectively as
have  their  ruling  elites,  which  constitute  the  only   true
international."

World renowned historian, Dr. Antony C. Sutton, agrees:

"One  of  the  most pervasive--but downright erroneous--themes in
modern  textbook  history  is  that  of  a  competition   between
Capitalist and   Marxist  systems.    In  fact,  given  objective
examination of all facts,  nothing  could  be  further  from  the
truth.  The two political power groups cooperate with each other,
nurture  each  other  and  in general are jointly responsible for
much of the pain and suffering of the average man on  the  street
in this world.

"Much  of  the  confusion  stems  from an unwillingness to define
monopoly ycapitalism for what it is:  a  political  power  system
that is much like state socialism.  Thus, a Brezhnev or Gorbachev
and a  Rockefeller have much in common.  Both are monopolists and
both thrive on use of political power to retain their monopoly."

Brothers,  megacorporations  have  no  problem  operating  within
totalitarian nations.    Totalitarianism provides megacapitalists
with two commodities they love most:  MAXIMUM  PROFITS  AND  ZERO
COMPETITION!

The  little Russian brother on the street is actually in the very
same predicament as are you.    Let  me  just  outline  the  deal
briefly:  THE  SOVIETS  HELP THE CAPITALISTS MAXIMIZE PROFITS AND
THE  CAPITALISTS   HELP   THE   SOVIETS   MAINTAIN   TOTALITARIAN
DICTATORSHIP.  IS  IT ANY WONDER THAT MR. BUSH WAS NOT ELATED AND
HOPPING  UP  AND  DOWN  IN  GLEE  WHEN  THE  BERLIN  WALL  BECAME
OVERWHELMED  AND  CRASHED  DOWN---YOU  HAD NOT DONE YOUR JOB WELL
ENOUGH AND MR. BUSH IS THE BIG CHEESE HONCHO OF THIS "DEAL".

Dharma, let us have a break for rest and then we shall cover "THE
DEAL". I am sorry to give you all this mass of work but  it  must
be done, chela, and my appreciation is very unlimited.

I now  move  to stand-by.  Please summon me when you are ready to
continue.

HATONN TO OUT, PLEASE.


For copies of THE PLAN

Independent Research Associates Box 2013 Hayden, Idaho 83835

Topic: CHAPTER 14

From: REC #2 HATONN

Date: FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 1989 1:00 P.M. YEAR 3, DAY 128


Hatonn present to resume.  Thank you.


Topic: THE BARGAIN - Chap 14


Like  the  monopoly  capitalists  of  the  West,   the   monopoly
socialists  of  the  Soviet Bloc enjoy IMMENSE WEALTH. The Soviet
elite, known collectively as  the  nomenklatura,  includes  about
three million  persons.  The nomenklatura operates at top levels,
the triad of Soviet power: the Communist Party, the  military/GRU
and the secret police (KGB). The nomenklatura owns all the wealth
in the  Soviet  sphere.  Michael Voslensky, a former high-ranking
Soviet official, observed that liquidating private  property  and
turning  it  into socialist property was merely a transfer of all
the country's wealth to the new ruling class, the nomenklatura.

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 10 <<================

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 10/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:44:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 611



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 10 <<=============================


Nomenklaturst   leaders,   including  Secretary  General  Mikhail
Gorbachev, live like the richest American millionaires.  They are
provided every conceivable luxury, convenience and  privilege  at
state expense.    In addition to handsome salaries, they maintain
an open account at the  State  Bank  from  which  they  may  draw
unlimited public funds for their private use.

The nomenklatura has little contact with the hundreds of millions
of common  people  of  the  Soviet  Bloc  nations.   According to
Voslensky, the  nomenklaturist  spends  his  life  "without  ever
coming into contact with the Soviet people whom he is supposed to
be serving".    This  is  possible  because the nomenklatura have
erected a rigid system of apartheid (based on  class  and  rank).
The   common   man   is  barred  from  nomenklatura  restaurants,
hospitals, schools, universities, resorts, etc.


Topic: TERROR  +  GENOCIDE = POWER  +  PROFIT - Chap 14


Professor Richard Pipes reminds you: "It is known  that  numerous
terrorist   movements   receive   training   in   Communist  Bloc
countries.  Terrorist gangs operating in  diverse  parts  of  the
world  have  formed  under the aegis of the KGB something like an
international  network  whose  members  shift  from  country   to
country,   as   opportunities   for  their  bloody  work  present
themselves.  The possibility of systematic, large-scale terrorism
within  the  United  States,  controlled  by  Moscow,  cannot  be
ignored."

Since  1917,  the  Communists  and  their capitalist backers have
successfully used revolution  and  terrorism  to  brutalize  into
subservience  fifty-six  nations comprising thirty-six percent of
the world's population.

Heading the international  clique  of  megacapitalists  who  have
shamelessly  built  the  Soviet  empire on the rotting corpses of
millions is Armand  Hammer,  chairman  of  Occidental  Petroleum.
Named   for  the  arm-and-hammer  symbol  of  revolution,  Hammer
epitomizes  the  grotesque  partnership  between   rich   Western
capitalists and the Soviet nomenklatura.

Said  to  be  worth $180 million, Hammer has been skulking in the
background whenever Mikhail Gorbachev was shown on TV during  the
earlier of his two 1988 visits to the U.S. This was apropos since
Hammer's father helped found the American Communist Party (before
he  went  to  prison for committing manslaughter during a botched
abortion).

Armand was employed by Lenin to help build Soviet industry.   The
U.S.  State Department noted in 1932 that Armand was an espionage
agent for Stalin. Today, at  age  90,  this  "one-man  bridge  to
Moscow"  circles the globe, skillfully interweaving the ambitions
of  European  aristocracy,  Western  politicians  and   corporate
leaders with the designs of the Kremlin elite.

Oh  Hatonn,  there  cannot  be very many companies involved or we
would have heard about it!  Is that what you are thinking?    How
about  just a partial list of some companies you might recognize:
Acme Manufacturing, Aetna Standard Company, Alcoa, Alliance  Tool
and Die, Allis-Chalmers, American Can, American Express, American
Motors, Armco Steel, Baldwin Locomotives, Bell Telephone, Bendix,
Boeing  Company,  Bechtel,  Bryant  Chucking  Grinder  Co., Bunge
Corporation,  Cargill,  Caterpillar,   University   of   Chicago,
Consolidated   Aircraft,   Consolidated  Edison,  Corning  Glass,
Cummins  Engine,  Curtiss-Wright,  Clark  Equipment,  Coca  Cola,
Continental   Grain,   John  Deere  Co.,  Dow  Chemical,  Douglas
Aircraft,  Equitable  Trust  Company,  E.I.  Dupont,  Ford  Motor
Company,  Gulf General Atomic, Gulf Oil, FMC Corporation, General
Dynamics, General Electric, General Motors, Girard Machine Tools,
Gleason Works, Hammer Concession, W. Averell  Harriman,  Hercules
Motor  Company, Hewlett Packard, Honeywell Controls, Hughes Tool,
International   Telephone   and   Telegraph,   Ingersoll    Rand,
International Harvester, Hooker, International Business Machines,
Kaiser  Aluminum  and  Chemical,  Lockheed,  Lummus  Corp., McKee
Corporation,  Monsanto,  Mack   Trucks,   Occidental   Petroleum,
Olivetti,  Pepsi  Company, Raycon Corp., Raytheon, RCA, Remington
Rand,  Rockwell  International,  Standard  Oil  of  New   Jersey,
Standard  Oil  of New York, Singer Company, Sperry Rand, Stauffer
Chemical   Co.,   Swindell-Dressler,   Tenneco,   Texas   Eastern
Transmission,  Union Carbide, Union Switch and Signal Co., United
Aircraft Corp.,  U.S.  Steel,  Universal  Oil  Products,  Univac,
Westinghouse Electric, Xerox Corp.

"Well",  you  might  ask,  "what  is  wrong with doing business?"
Nothing--these are just companies whose boards of  directors  and
top  executives  find  it most rewarding to finance and/or supply
Communist Bloc nations (and thus their terrorist networks).   The
problem  is  that  it is kept secret from you, the taxpayers, and
you benefit nothing except  possibly  you  might  get  personally
involved in a terrorist plot and end up dead by your own "made in
the U.S.A.  bullets, etc".  The fact is that you are not intended
to know these things and all the while the government is lying to
you and claiming to be deadly enemies---this is what is going  on
instead.

Perhaps the following can help you understand the problem:


Topic: THE RACKET - Chap 14



Between 1961-1973, the U.S. government sent 2.5 million Americans
(your  sons,  lovers,  fathers and husbands or daughters, lovers,
mothers and wives) to a war zone called Vietnam. Of these, 47,244
were killed in action, 10,446 died of accidents and disease,  and
303,704 were wounded.  That war cost Americans 22 BILLION DOLLARS
PER YEAR!

U.S.  troops  and  millions  of  South Vietnamese ultimately left
Vietnam in panic, fleeing before the Communists. No one can fully
comprehend the physical and psychological damage  still  suffered
by  the  survivors of the Vietnam horror which bankrupted America
and marked the beginning of her strategic decline.

During the war, U.S. Defense  Secretary  Melvin  Laird  reported:
"About 75 percent of the supplies, equipment, and support for the
enemy  (in  Vietnam)  comes from the Soviet Union and the Eastern
satellites, and the remaining 25 percent from Red China."

Here is the punch-line---throughout the  war,  U.S.  corporations
supplied  the  Soviets  with cash, credit, industrial technology,
machinery and equipment absolutely vital to the  Soviet  military
machine.

According  to  the  Constitution,  giving  aid  to  the  enemy is
TREASON.  Yet  Corporate  America  was  ENCOURAGED  by  the  U.S.
government to supply the Soviets. Five bloody years into the war,
the  U.S. State Department issued a declaration that any American
businessman trading with the Soviet Union or  European  countries
would  be  "acting  within his rights and following the policy of
his government".  This  declaration  announced  that  persons  or
organizations  OPPOSING  such  trade would be "acting against the
interests of the United States".

Wait a minute, I didn't make these  rules--you  did,  I  am  just
telling you about them.

Among  American  blood  vendors  was  a  company  called  Gleason
Corporation of New York, which supplied equipment for  the  Gorki
industrial  complex  (originally built by Ford Motor Company). At
Gorki, the Soviets produced military vehicles and equipment  used
against  the  American troops in Vietnam. The Gleason Corporation
always advertises in the U.S.-U.S.S.R. Trade and Economic Council
Journal. This company makes precision  gears  which  the  Soviets
cannot get  elsewhere.    The  company  celebrates  the fact that
Gleason has provided the Soviets with industrial assistance since
Lenin turned Russia into a totalitarian gulag.


Topic: WHAT NEXT? AFGHANISTAN - Chap 14



After America got burned out on  sending  its  kids  to  die  for
nothing  in  a  hell-hole  jungle,  the  war people looked to new
horizons for the most valuable  of  commodities:  cannon  fodder.
They turned their eyes to the beautiful people of Afghanistan.

It  was  actually  during  the 1960s that the U.S. government and
Corporate America prepared the groundwork for the Soviet invasion
of Afghanistan. The U.S. Army Corp of Engineers, with  assistance
from  the  United  Nations,  constructed 300 miles of double-lane
highway through Afhganistan. This highway  connected  to  another
built by the Soviets through the U.S.S.R. to the Afghan border.

In  1972,  Soviet proxies were still killing American soldiers in
Vietnam. That year, Richard Nixon, the U.S. Commerce  Department,
Chase  Manhattan  Bank,  the  Export-Import  Bank  and forty U.S.
corporations--including Gulf and Western  Industries,  Honeywell,
Ingersoll  Milling  Machine  Company,  Swindell-Dressler, IBM and
Westinghouse--arranged for the construction  of  the  Kama  River
industrial  complex,  one of the largest in the U.S.S.R. Here the
Soviets produced assault vehicles and armored personnel  carriers
for their 1979 Afghanistan invasion.

In 1980, Business Week reported that Ingersoll Rand of New Jersey
was  delivering  to  the  Soviets  8.8  million  dollars worth of
equipment for the Kama River plant, even though U.S.    officials
were  well  aware  that  Kama  had  "produced  trucks used in the
invasion of Afghanistan".

Ingersoll Rand has tacitly endorsed  mass  genocide  since  1918,
when  the  company's chairman, William Saunders, wrote to Woodrow
Wilson: "I am in sympathy with the Soviet form of  government  as
the best suited for the Russian people."

The   Soviet   form   of  government  is  also  best  suited  for
imperialism, war and revolution which engender huge  profits  for
the  Western  multinational  banks and corporations supplying the
Soviet military machine.

While  Soviet  troops  mutilated,   tortured,   gassed,   bombed,
napalmed,  burned  and  starved  the peasants of Afghanistan, the
U.S. government provided the  Soviet-backed  puppet  dictator  of
Afghanistan most-favored-nation    trade    privileges.      U.S.
corporations raked in  multi-millions  by  providing  the  Soviet
puppet  government  in  Kabul  with aircraft components, chemical
products and engine parts for its scorched-earth campaign.


Topic: AND SLAVES TOO!  - Chap 14


The Soviets ran a full-page ad in Wall Street Journal  (Aug.  24,
1987)  announcing  that Soviet head gangster Mikhail Gorbachev is
recruiting new U.S. corporations to come on board for  profitable
deals   and   joint  ventures  in  KGB-land.  Numerous  corporate
executives like Dwayne Andreas are already involved in  lucrative
commercial  joint  ventures with the Soviets. Under the direction
of the U.S. Commerce  Department,  Western  megacorporations  are
setting  up  scores  of  new industrial and agricultural projects
within the Soviet Union. Western capitalists may own 49% of these
Soviet socialist monopolies.  And guess where the start-up money,
etc.  will flow from.

Capitalist-Communist  ventures  behind  the  Iron   Curtain   are
especially profitable because labor is cheap!

A  tribunal  set  up  by  the  International  Commission on Human
Rights, the  International  Society  for  Human  Rights  and  the
International  Sakharov  Committee reported in 1982: "We find the
U.S.S.R. continues the deplorable practice of using forced  labor
in manufacturing and construction projects including the Siberian
Gas pipeline."

Do you  now  understand  why  Sakharov  had to be killed?  He was
about to spill the entire load to the  international  press  with
all that new openness.  Mr. Gorbachev was told to "silence him".

A  390-page  document  commissioned  by  the  Research Center for
Prisons, Psychoprisons and Forced-Labor  Concentration  Camps  of
the U.S.S.R. lists many of the 2,000 Soviet slave labor camps and
prisons.   This  study  was organized by Jewish dissident Avraham
Shifrin who, as a Soviet political prisoner,  made  contacts  for
obtaining documentation  on  the  Soviet  penal  system.  Shifrin
estimates that, since 1917, sixty million human beings have  died
in Soviet  labor  camps.    He explains: "Every day, thousands of
prisoners are routed through Moscow, a central transit  point  in
the  Soviet  penal system, for destinations in other parts of the
country.  The routing usually occurs at night.  The  inmates  are
taken  from  their temporary prisons to the trains, and then from
their  transit  cells  in  the  basements  of  Moscow's  railroad
stations to their final place of servitude.  Five to six thousand
prisoners  a  day  await  transfer  in  the  huge transit prison,
'Presnya'. Authorities of  the  'Presnya'  are  known  for  their
depravity, tyranny, and cruelty."

Estimating  the  average  detention  time  at  five years and the
maximum percentage of repeaters at 20 to 25 percent, a  total  of
nearly a  third  of  the country has gone through the camps.  The
high criminal percentage is artificially maintained by the  state
for primarily  economic  reasons.    This  does not mean that the
government promotes crime but that it suddenly takes notice of an
exceptional   number    of    supposed    criminals--"parasites",
"hooligans", and "vagabonds"--in Soviet society whenever it needs
to  resort  to  mass arrests to augment the labor supply for camp
labor is inherently necessary to the sagging  edifice  of  Soviet
production.  This is why Cuba and Vietnam pay part of their debts
to  the  U.S.S.R. by sending it forced-labor contingents, just as
in ancient times a conquered people's tribute to the  victor  had
to include  a  certain  number of slaves.  If general amnesty was
suddenly decreed, it would trigger an economic catastrophe.

You can get arrested and convicted on a pure whim--which is  also
happening right in the good old U.S.A.

Thousands of women prisoners, including nursing mothers, and also
children,  are  forced  to  do  exhausting  and dangerous work in
Soviet labor camps.  Shifrin reports:.  "An  eyewitness  who  has
been  to  the camps in Novosibirsk for reasons connected with her
work, reports that club-carrying supervisors  (officially  called
"educators")  roaming  about  the  camp grounds subject the young
prisoners (aged 10 to 18) to merciless beatings.    In  addition,
the  younger  boys  must  also  suffer  the  harassments of older
inmates--stolen food rations,  sexual  abuses  (homosexuality  is
rampant),   pressures   to   perform   involuntary  favors,  etc.
Otherwise, the boys are assigned to hard labor projects."

What have these millions of "criminals" in the U.S.S.R.  done  to
incite the  wrath of their Soviet masters?  Shifrin says: "We are
speaking  of  innocent  human  beings  persecuted  for   thinking
differently;  reading  'forbidden'  philosophical,  political  or
religious books; posting up notices; putting up a flag; demanding
religious  instruction  for  their  children;  or  undertaking  a
private commercial  initiative.  These are the 'crimes' for which
a Soviet citizen can be imprisoned."

Religious dissidents have the hardest time of all Soviet  slaves.
They are often placed in what Shifrin calls "extermination camps"
where few come out alive.  They are forced to work with asbestos,
or to labor unprotected in uranium mines, or to perform high-risk
duties  in  nuclear  plants or to operate equipment that produces
toxic fumes.  In addition, says Shifrin: "Psychiatric  hospitals,
as  well as penal facilities officially designated as prisons are
maintained   by   the   authorities   in   Moscow    to    punish
independently-minded or religious citizens.

"Mentally  healthy  human  beings are administered heavy doses of
neuroleptic drugs.  Recalcitrant inmates are held bound for hours
or even days in a wet strait jacket.    Once  the  strait  jacket
dries,  the  victim's  body  becomes  compressed  as  in  a vice.
Prisoners, moreover, are beaten by so-called hospital attendants,
who in fact are criminals, and subjected to electric shocks."

The following is a recollection of Sergei Kourdakov,  who,  until
his  defection  from  Russia,  led KGB raids on Christians there:
"Inside, fifteen startled people  on  their  knees,  praying  and
singing, looked  up  in  utter  disbelief.    They  knew what was
happening and their faces were filled with a mixture of  surprise
and fear.

"I shouted,  `You're praying to empty air.  Where's your God now?
Let Him help you now!' We shoved and pushed, getting warmed up to
the attack.

"Vladimir grabbed an old man, smashed him in the face,  and  sent
him screaming across the room to tumble on the floor in a pool of
blood....   The Believers who could stay clear of us rushed about
the room trying to hide their  Bibles  and  literature....    Uri
picked  up  an old woman, grabbed her long, gray hair, pulled her
head back, and struck her across the throat with a  karate  chop.
Without a  sound  the  old  woman  crumpled to the floor....  The
young men were beaten until their faces were a bloody pulp.  Most
of the bones of their faces were broken.

"Meanwhile, Sergei Kanonenko had used his knife on  a  couple  of
the women, and they were screaming and holding their sides."

In   1982   Shifrin  wrote:  "To  our  great  distress,  we  have
ascertained that in 1981 the authorities  in  the  U.S.S.R.  have
sharply  increased  arrests,  persecutions,  and  intimidation of
dissidents, religious persons, and those attempting  to  emigrate
from  the  U.S.S.R. We know of many cases of beatings and murders
of both clergy and those who simply believe in God."


Topic: CONCENTRATION CAMPS  - Chap 14



The millions of people in  Soviet  concentration  camps  are  not
alone in  their  suffering  and  deprivation.  Michael Voslensky,
who, before his defection held  high  bureaucratic  and  academic
posts  in  the  U.S.S.R., testifies that the entire population of
the Soviet Block--including Eastern Europe--suffers bleak poverty
in a "system of extraeconomic compulsory labor as in the  age  of
slavery or feudalism".  Richard Pipes notes that a Soviet soldier
is  paid  four  rubles  per  month--approximately  five dollars:.
"Since this is as much as no pay, the bulk of the Soviet Army may
be said to consist of temporarily bonded serfs."

The nomenklatura goes to extraordinary  lengths  to  prevent  its
slaves from  emigrating  en  masse.  According to Paragraph 64 of
the Soviet Penal Code, escape abroad and refusal to return to the
Soviet "paradise" constitute high treason.  The KGB will track an
escapee for years in order to execute him.

Voslensky describes the thousands of  miles  of  bolts  and  bars
along  the  Soviet  frontier  as  a  "ring  fence  around  a huge
concentration camp".  He says this barrier includes:

--barbed wire strips five yards wide, with low  voltage  electric
current alarms  activated by the slightest movement.  --secondary
zones laced with concealed spider web steel loops  which  tighten
the more   a  victim  struggles.    --a  tertiary  no-man's  land
patrolled by dogs and by  guards  who  can  expect  a  medal  for
machine-gunning fugitives in the back.

Affirming  that the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was subsidized
by Western capitalists, Voslensky says the  Soviets  are  now  in
partnership   with  large  Western  corporations  to  consolidate
"maximum extension of their power" and to obtain "the  production
of arms and the latest technical equipment for the police".

Russian  dissident  Vladimir  Bukovsky  found  that the handcuffs
which bound him in a Soviet prison were stamped with an  American
trademark.   He  correctly deduced that the West has supplied the
Soviets--both literally and figuratively--with the chains holding
the Soviet peoples in bondage.

The economically stagnant Soviet empire  would  collapse  without
forced labor.    The  Soviet  slave  system must continue despite
"glasnost" and  "perestroika"--those  hollow  propaganda  phrases
used  by Soviet slavers and their public relations specialists to
seduce the West into new and treacherous deals.

I see that you want to argue with me--well,  you  tell  me  about
those  4,600  bodies in the mass grave in Romania TODAY. AND THAT
IS ONLY ONE SUCH GRAVE.


Topic: SPEAK OF COLLUSION - Chap 14



Russian defector Tomas Schuman says of the  Soviet  elite:  "They
are  not government--they don't govern anything--they are a bunch
of self-imposed dictators, very dangerous criminals, and they are
unwanted in my country, and the worst thing you Americans can  do
to  my  country, to 270 or more million citizens of the U.S.S.R.,
is to keep on negotiating with their oppressors."

In  April  1987,  Jim   Wright,   speaker   of   the   House   of
Representatives  of  the  U.S.  Congress,  traveled to the Soviet
Union where he appeared on Soviet television.  Wright  read  this
script to the inmates of the Soviet Bloc:

"I  am  here,  along  with twenty lawmakers of my country, at the
invitation of your Secretary General, Mikhail Gorbachev. We  have
met with  Mr. Gorbachev and other members of your government.  We
have been impressed by the sincerity of  Mr.  Gorbachev,  by  his
desire  to  turn over a new leaf in the book of our relationship,
and by his commitments to a better world for all of  us  and  for
our children--Soviet children and American children."

It  should be noted here that Mikhail Gorbachev and other members
of the Soviet Communist Party especially  love  the  children  of
Afghanistan. On October 10, 1985--in the SAME issue outlining the
U.S.-Soviet education merger--a New York Times editorial reported
"deliberate   crippling   of   children  by  Soviet  invaders  in
Afghanistan". "The evil...lies exposed in a report to the  United
Nations Commission on Human Rights...

"The report asserts: `The most horrible type of incident was that
caused by the explosion of anti-personnel mines and especially of
children's toys.  Many witnesses testified that children had been
very  seriously  wounded,  having  their hands or feet blown off,
either by handling booby-trap toys they had picked up  along  the
roadway, or by stepping on them.

"The   types   of   booby-trap  toys  encountered  include  those
resembling pens, harmonicas, radios and little bombs shaped  like
a bird.  This type of bomb, consisting of two wings, one flexible
and  the other rigid, in the shape and colors of a bird, explodes
when the flexible wing is touched."

Now for a bit more of Jim Wright's speech:

"Both of our countries were born in revolution.  Both  strive--in
different ways--to achieve a better life for our people.  Our two
great countries have never been at war against each other.

"If you will write me a little note and tell me that you saw this
program, I would like to send you one of these little pins that I
am wearing  in my lapel.  It contains small replicas of the flags
of our two nations flying side by side."

And that is exactly what the pin  is--the  American  and  Russian
flags crossed  and united.  The Stars and Stripes are intertwined
with the Soviet Red--complete  with  its  hammer  and  sickle,  a
symbol  of  human  suffering and mass genocide for over 70 years.
Tens of thousands of Americans died in Vietnam because of the red
flag with the hammer and sickle.  Well over ONE  HUNDRED  MILLION
innocent  human  beings  in  the U.S.S.R. and over ONE MILLION in
Afghanistan have been MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD by the  dictatorship
this symbol represents.  Millions more, including Americans, will
yet  be  sacrificed  to the Soviet goal of global domination--you
can count on it.  I SUGGEST YOU GET YOUR SURVIVAL SHELTERS  UNDER
WAY POST-HASTE.

You  will  be  seeing  these flags side by side as you move along
here.  It symbolizes the linkage of the U.S. with the Soviet Bloc
under a single global governing authority.    It  is  a  sad  day
indeed, my friends.


Topic: FACTS TO ASTOUND EVEN THE HARDENED - Chap 14



There  have  been  tens of thousands of hours spent investigating
the master plan for merging the U.S. with the  Soviet  Union---BY
THE YEAR 2000!

Research   should   solidly   convince   you  that  there  is  an
INTERNATIONAL COALITION  of  families  and  individuals--who  own
and/or  control  a  global  network  of  banks,  corporations and
tax-exempt  foundations--and  who  have  accumulated  wealth   so
massive  that they have bought themselves control of the economic
and political affairs  of  every  nation  on  earth.    In  quiet
cooperation,    the    powermongers    operate--for   their   own
purposes--the  governments   of   both   the   "democratic"   and
totalitarian nations.

This  coalition  of  billionaires  has been a global power for at
least a century.  Back in 1913,  your  President  Woodrow  Wilson
wrote:  "Some  of  the  biggest  men in the U.S., in the field of
commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are  afraid  of
something.   They  know  that  there  is  a  power  somewhere  so
organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked,  so  complete,
so  pervasive,  that they had better not speak above their breath
when they speak in condemnation of it."

The late Dr. Carroll Quigley, renowned scholar and  professor  of
history   at   Georgetown   University,  Harvard  and  Princeton,
published  1,600  pages  documenting  the   existence   of   this
tightly-knit  Cartel. He conceded that many generations ago, this
consortium of super-wealthy  families  set  about  to  create  a:
"World  system  of  financial  control  in  private hands able to
dominate the political system of each country and the economy  of
the world  as  a  whole.    This system was to be controlled in a
feudalist fashion by the central banks of  the  world  acting  in
concert,  by  secret  agreements  arrived  at in frequent private
meetings and conferences."

Dr. Quigley also wrote of the Cartel: "I know of the  generations
of  this  network  because I have studied it for twenty years and
was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to  examine  its
papers and  secret  records.  I have no aversion to it or to most
of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to  it  and
to many  of  its  instruments.  I have objected, both in the past
and recently, to a few of its policies---but in general my  chief
difference  of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I
believe its role in history is significant enough to be known."

Quigley identified this secret combination as a "very real  power
structure"  which  the  "Radical  Right  in  the  U.S.  has  been
attacking for years in the belief that  they  are  attacking  the
Communists." He further explained:

"There  does  exist  an  international  Anglophile  network which
operates, to some extent, in the way the Radical  Right  believes
the Communists act.  In fact, this network, which we may identify
as  the  Round  Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with
the Communists--and frequently does so."

Senator Jesse Helms has accurately identified the Cartel's  basic
world view which calls for:

".  .  an  ultimate convergence, or merging, of the United States
and the Soviet Union, into a common culture, economy,  philosophy
and despotism."

This is  how  blatantly  open it has become, however.  The Cartel
has recently published detailed strategies for  cinching  up  its
existing  eco-political power into a virtual global dictatorship.
Backed by billions of dollars, the Cartel has already created the
foundations of a world governing authority  which  will  complete
the U.S.-Soviet   merger   with   dictatorial  precision.    This
governing authority is slated to  become  so  powerful  that  all
citizens  of  the  world  will  be  subjugated  to  its  absolute
dictates.   Cartel  spokesmen  consistently  label  the  evolving
system "world order".

These  beloved  investigators call it "THE PLAN" and I honor them
and shall refer to it by that label.  I urge you to obtain  their
information  and  will give you information for its source at the
end of this journal.

Dharma, you are most fatigued and have not had  nourishment  this
day.  Let  us  leave  this  now.  It is, however, most imperative
that we not lag in this task--knowledge shall be man's one  great
asset.   Man  has  to  know the problem before he can formulate a
solution.

I move to stand-by.

HATONN OUT, SALU.


Topic: CHAPTER 15

From: REC #1 HATONN

Date: SATURDAY, DECEMBER 23, 1989 8:00 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 129


Think not that you would not be given the  roadmap  back  to  the
stars?   Creator promised you truth so that you might discern the
path.  See  the  evil  for  that  which  it  is,  change  of  the
thoughtform  and  you  can  create freedom and that which is your
rightful heritage.  You are trapped by the lie and yet  you  need
only to  cast off your bindings.  The word of truth shall set you
free.  There is wondrous solace, tremendous  power  and  ultimate
victory in  simply refusing to be deceived.  For if enough of you
ask passage the ship shall be sent.  United you  will  stand  but
divided  you are falling and the purpose has been to turn brother
against brother and strip you of your strength.

Reach out unto your brother, refuse to accept that which is  told
to you  without discernment of self truth.  Carefully look at all
facets and find wisdom.   Rise  above  your  physical  fears  and
terrors  and  come again into LIFE. You have become a humanity of
bored, terrified and truth starved people.  Stand up,  learn  the
truth, take  thy brother's hand and refuse to accept the lie.  It
is time to birth the Phoenix into a renewed cycle--will  you  but
sit and  wither  in the flames and fall into the ashes?  You have
but to ask and reach out unto my offered  hand  for  I  know  the
way.

I AM SANANDA

* * *

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 11 <<================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 11/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:45:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 627



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 11 <<=============================


Topic: THE MASTER SCHEMERS - Chap 15



There  are  several master theoreticians for that which is called
the "world order" movement.  Let us see that which they  project.
I am Hatonn to sit with you and reason together.

Saul  Mendlovitz is a leading theoretician regarding this theory.
He has stated: "I am arguing for a new governance or  alternative
institutions to  those  now  responsible  for global concert.  It
could easily be the  U.N.  with  binding  decision-making  power.
People  will  be  demanding a central guidance system; it means a
governance is about to come into being in which the policy elites
in various nation states who have the authority and the  capacity
to  make  decisions,  will  not  longer solely have that as their
prerogative.  There will be a governance that will say you  can't
build an  army  any more.  You must give a certain amount of your
economic income to other areas of the world."

Another world order specialist is Richard Falk,  a  professor  of
international law at Princeton University. Falk has helped design
strategies for bringing the United States under jurisdiction of a
coercive global governing authority.  We shall quote Richard Falk
a lot as we move along through these pages.

Mr.  Falk is a director of the World Order Models Project (WOMP),
a world order think tank in New York City.  Affiliated  with  the
World  Order  Institute,  WOMP is funded by two giants within the
Cartel's tax-exempt foundation  complex:  Rockefeller  Foundation
and  Carnegie  Endowment  for World Peace. It is significant that
early trustees of the Carnegie Endowment  included  wealthy  Wall
Street moguls who backed the Bolshevik Revolution.

Richard  Falk  specifies  the  target  date for completion of the
Cartel's basic global governing authority:  "We  should  like  to
bring  the  new  system  into  being by the year 2000, or shortly
thereafter.    In   essence   we   anticipate   the   centralized
administration   of   many   realms  of  human  activity--health,
environmental protection, money, business operations,  ocean  and
space   use,  disarmament,  disaster  relief,  peace-keeping  and
peaceful settlement, and resource  conservation."    THIS  SHOULD
BEGIN  TO  GIVE  YOU  QUESTIONERS OF DATES SOMETHING TO SERIOUSLY
PONDER.

Harlan Cleveland, a director of the Cartel's Aspen Institute  for
Humanistic  Studies,  has further described the awesome power for
which the Cartel is reaching.  He said: "There is a  long  agenda
of  creative effort just ahead, a complex agenda of international
action which some of us have been calling The Planetary  Bargain.
We, the people of the world community, will need to create a food
reserve,  to  assure energy supplies, to depress fertility rates,
to  stabilize  commodity   markets,   to   protect   the   global
environment,  to manage the ocean and its deep seabed, to control
the modification of weather at  human  command,  to  rewrite  the
rules  of trade and investment, to reform the monetary system, to
mediate disputes, to reduce the costs of military stalemates,  to
manage  conflict in a world of proliferating weapons, and to keep
the peace when it is broken.  Taking it all together, this agenda
amounts to a third try at  world  order--the  League  of  Nations
having  died,  and  the  United  Nations  unable  in  its present
condition to cope."

DEAR ONES, REALLY CAREFULLY READ THESE WORDS. ON THE SURFACE THEY
SOUND WONDROUSLY MARVELOUS. THERE  IS  ALWAYS  ENOUGH  TRUTH  SET
FORTH  TO  MISLEAD  AND  MISGUIDE---REALLY  SEE  WHAT IS SAID AND
COMPREHEND THE MAGNITUDE OF SUCH PROJECTIONS.  AND  ALWAYS---LOOK
TO THE  RESOURCE BEHIND THE INSTITUTES---WHO PAYS THE BILLS?  THE
ONES WHO CONTROL YOUR VERY EXISTENCE ON THAT PLACEMENT!!!!!!

Richard Falk admits that some of the planners  working  with  the
World  Order  Models  Project  to prepare the foundation of world
government are agents of the Soviet Union  and  Communist  China.
He  is  also  candid  about  the  eco-political  structure of the
Cartel's evolving global system.  He writes: "This  transnational
group  of  scholars,  therefore,  is  committed to the search for
peace with equity and seeks to evolve a globalist  ideology  that
draws   on   socialism   to  depict  a  humane  set  of  economic
relationships based on societal well being."

So you learn on good authority that the world government is to be
a SOCIALIST entity.  The Soviet  Communist  Party  helps  you  to
understand  America's  future  with this definition of socialism:
"Socialism is a social system under which, as  a  result  of  the
socialist revolution and the consolidation of the dictatorship of
the  proletariat, private ownership of the means of production is
abolished, social, socialist  ownership  is  established  as  the
basis  of  society,  and  the  exploiting classes are eliminated.
Manufactured products are distributed according to  the  work  in
line  with  the  principle:  He  who does not work, does not eat.
Socialism is the first phase of Communism."

ALL THIS AT FIRST GLANCE LOOKS REALLY GOOD. BUT WHO IS AT THE TOP
PULLING THE STRINGS AND MAKING THE DECISIONS?  DO YOU HAVE A FAIR
GOD WHO IS ALWAYS JUST  OR  DO  YOU  HAVE  "MEN"  WHO  ARE  EVIL?
FREEDOM  IS  A  WONDROUS  THING INDEED, AND ONCE IT IS GONE IT IS
MOST DIFFICULT TO RECOVER----AS YOU ONES ARE GOING  TO  FIND  OUT
VERY QUICKLY!

Webster's New World Dictionary reports that the founder of modern
socialism  was  German  political  economist,  Karl Heinrich Marx
(1818-1883). The term socialism  is  often  used  interchangeably
with the term Marxism. Marx, as a paid agent, wrote the Communist
Manifesto, a  blueprint  for  global socialist dictatorship.  The
Manifesto calls for violent revolution resulting in:

Abolition of all religion and morality.    Abolition  of  private
property and   right  of  inheritance.    Government  control  of
education and communication.  Establishment of a heavy  graduated
income tax.    Creation  of  Industrial  armies  (forced  labor).
Government  monopoly  on  all  production,  i.e.,  manufacturing,
banking, transportation, agriculture, etc.

DOES ANY OF THIS SOUND FAMILIAR?  IF IT DOES NOT--THEN GO GET THE
PHOENIX  JOURNALS.  THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING. YOU
CAN KEEP THAT WHICH IS YOURS A BIT LONGER BY INCORPORATION IF YOU
CAN KEEP SECRET THE OWNERSHIP OF YOUR CORPORATION  AND  THE  ONLY
PLACE  LEFT  IN  THE  U.S. IS NEVADA. I WARN YOU---THEY WILL TAKE
YOUR INHERITANCE AND ALL YOUR ASSETS BEFORE  THEY  ARE  DONE  AND
THEY PLAN  TO  BE  FINISHED  BY YEAR 2000!  YOU HAVE, IT APPEARS,
LESS THAN TEN YEARS AT BEST TO GET YOUR ASSETS COVERED!    SO  BE
IT.

The  Manifesto  demands annihilation of the middle-class owner of
property (bourgeois) who "must be swept out of the way  and  made
impossible to   exist".    The  Manifesto  does  not  demand  the
annihilation of the super-rich class.   In  fact,  the  Manifesto
expresses empathy with the European aristocracy.

HOW MANY  OF  YOU  ARE  IN THE SUPER-RICH CLASS?  DOES THIS SOUND
LIKE SOMETHING RIGHT OUT OF HELL?  SO BE IT.

The Manifesto REPEATS that the ENEMY of the Communist movement is
the enterprising,  profit-oriented,  freedom-loving  bourgeoisie.
The   term  "bourgeoisie"  is  defined  by  Webster's  New  World
Dictionary as that economic class: BETWEEN THE VERY WEALTHY CLASS
OF IDLE RICH AND THE DRUDGERY-RIDDEN WORKING POOR!    WHERE  DOES
THAT PLACE MOST OF YOU GOOD OLD KIDS?

NO,  DEAR  HEARTS,  THIS IS NOT SOME SILLY PLAN FOR SOMEONE ELSE,
SOMEWHERE ELSE----THIS IS THE PLAN FOR YOU IN THE  UNITED  STATES
OF AMERICA AND IT IS ALL BUT FINISHED!

Karl  Marx  tried  to  induce  the  working poor (proletariat) to
despise and destroy the middle class.  But  as  Fabian  socialist
George  Bernard  Shaw  pointed out, "The working man respects the
bourgeois and wants to be the bourgeois; Marx never got  hold  of
him for  a  moment."   Historically, all socialist movements have
been financed and directed by the super-rich.

Why would the  world's  most  powerful,  monied  cliques  promote
socialism?     Because   socialism,   whether   totalitarian   or
"democratic", stratifies citizens into TWO classes: the  powerful
rich nomenklature and the working poor.

Socialism  is  a  system in which the super-rich need not compete
with an enterprising middle class for wealth and power, since the
middle class has  been  annihilated  by  government  monopoly  on
property and means of production.

Socialism,  which  concentrates all wealth and power in the hands
of the ruling elite, is a kickback to medieval feudalism.

IS IT ANY WONDER THAT MR. BUSH IS NOT JUBILANT OVER THE  BREAKING
AWAY  OF  THE PEOPLES OF THE SOVIET BLOC IN A DIRECTION AWAY FROM
SOCIALISTIC COMMUNISM?  IT HAD BEEN HOPED AND PLANNED  THAT  WITH
MR.  GORBACHEV, ETC., THIS COULD HAVE BEEN PULLED OFF WHILE STILL
MANAGING TO KEEP THOSE PEOPLE OF EUROPE UNDER CONTROL. HONOR YOUR
BROTHERS AND SISTERS OVER THERE WHO HAVE GIVEN IT ALL TO GET YOUR
ATTENTION IN TIME-----PLEASE LET IT BE IN TIME!

* * * * *

SOCIALISM IS A SYSTEM OF MASTERS AND SLAVES!   THIS  IS  WHY  THE
CARTEL  HAS  SELECTED  SOCIALISM AS THE VEHICLE FOR SEIZING TOTAL
GLOBAL POWER.

* * * * *


Topic: FURTHER DEFINING SOCIALISM - Chap 15


Igor Shafarevich, a Russian scientist and dissident  residing  in
the  U.S.S.R.,  identifies  the  central  element  of  socialism:
"Socialism  is  the  theory   of   preparing   and   implementing
revolution:  it  is  a  series of rules which must be followed in
order to seize power.  At the same time, it is the technology  of
power,  the philosophy of the absolute state to which all life is
subjected--i.e., SATANISM."

OH GULP, OH GULP---COULD IT BE?

You see, you thought those Russians  practiced  "Communism"--nay,
nay, nay.  YOU SIMPLY DID NOT UNDERSTAND "SOCIALISM"!

Richard  Falk  concedes  that  it  is  "virtually impossible" for
nations to get rid of socialist regimes once those regimes  adopt
a "hard orientation toward the retention of state power".  But he
concludes  that  "socialist  forms of authoritarianism" are to be
preferred to capitalism because "socialism seems to do better  in
the  maintenance  phase with economic rights and with those human
rights concerned with avoidance of extreme abuse of the  person."
AH,  NOW  YOU SEE WHERE YOU GOT THE CONCEPTION OF SOCIALISM BEING
GOOD---IT COULD, IF ONLY MAN WERE PERFECT, FAIR AND JUST!

The  year  Soviet  troops  invaded  Afghanistan   to   begin   an
extermination  campaign there, Falk wrote that the Soviet role in
the Third World has been "less widely detrimental to the  pursuit
of human rights than has the American role".  Such is the twisted
bias  of  those  planning  America's  future in the socialist new
world order.


Topic: GLOBAL SYSTEM - Chap 15


The Cartel's global governing authority will  require  a  massive
bureaucracy  which planners often refer to as a "central guidance
system".  WOMP's blueprint for this governing  authority  appears
to  be a refinement of the United Nations Organization, which was
created by the Cartel  in  the  first  place,  as  a  preparatory
foundation for world government.

Cartel  patrician John Foster Dulles was leader of the delegation
which met with the Soviets in San Francisco (1945) to hammer  out
the  United  Nations  Charter.  Dulles wrote: "The United Nations
represents not a final stage in the development of  world  order,
but only  a  primitive  stage.  Therefore, its primary task is to
create the conditions which will  make  possible  a  more  highly
developed organization.    If the principal members of the United
Nations, including the Soviet Union, are willing to take part  in
a proposed new world organization, then the United Nations itself
could quickly be made into that organization."

Dharma,  I  pain  to see the realization of the people of the lie
who have passed your way and sat in judgment and  persecution  of
you ones.    It  was intended that you never get these words into
print for the masses.  Those ones work in ignorance of the  total
evil that  they  bear  upon their fellow-men.  I warned you to be
prepared for the pain and feeling of isolation for it had to come
to be.  In their simple truth they do not conceive of that  which
they do.

When your heart is too heavy--reach out unto Little Crow for your
tasks  are  hard  and  painful---but I believe it becomes obvious
that you are not alone---and these other brave  men  do  not  yet
understand  that  they  have  the help of we of the outer realms.
Hold tightly to my hand, little sparrows,  for  the  winds  shall
blow  against  you  but the ultimate storm shall be conquered and
the winds shall but thrust you up.  You ones shall be  given  the
strength to  prevail  and  prosper.  To conceal the lie they must
allow you the freedom of speech a bit longer--do you see?  "They"
do not yet have total control and they cannot handle anarchy  and
you ones shall walk behind OUR SHIELDS. I HOLD THEE CLOSE.

Cartel planner Richard Gardner, former Deputy Assistant Secretary
of  State  and professor of law at Columbia University, brings us
up to date on the development of world government: "A  generation
ago  the  central  problem  was to create new global institutions
where none existed; today it is to get several hundred functional
and regional commissions, boards, committees and secretariats  to
work together effectively."

It  is to these hundreds of international commissions, boards and
secretariats that nations of the world are gradually handing  the
power  to  govern, the power to make binding decisions, the power
to determine the course of human history.

The most pressing problem,  says  Gardner,  is  how  to  "improve
present  arrangements  for  creating,  adapting, interpreting and
enforcing international law".  So the Cartel continually  inserts
into  the  United Nations framework new and powerful intermediary
groups of  administrators  who,  behind  the  scenes,  guide  the
developing global   bureaucracy.     Gardner  notes:  "While  the
membership explosion of the  U.N.  system  makes  it  politically
impossible  to return completely to the old ways of doing things,
the common interest of all countries in the  orderly  development
of  new  rules  of international law suggests that greater use of
small and expert bodies should be made in the  preparatory  stage
of law-making conferences."

This year you have seen the power put forth in demonstrations for
the U.N.  group.    When  the U.S. had not paid their dues---most
intentional a display indeed---the organization all  but  had  to
disband.  It was a most obvious show of power and none but you of
the blind,  trusting,  public citizens missed it.  Go against the
power wielder and you reap the sword of doom for your nations who
rise to dispute.  The  world  is  already  hostage  to  the  evil
Cartel.

As   the   Cartel's   global   socialist   bureaucracy   becomes,
incrementally, the governing  power  of  the  entire  earth,  all
national  governments  will,  according  to Richard Falk, "wither
away".  In  order  to  hasten  the  "withering"  process,  Cartel
propagandists   such  as  Zbigniew  Brzezinski,  former  national
security advisor under President Carter, instruct Americans  that
"national  sovereignty"  and  "nationalism"  are  "dangerous" and
"selfish" and "antiquated" concepts.

National sovereignty is defined as  the  right  of  a  nation  to
conduct    domestic    and   foreign   policy   without   outside
interference.   Such  independence  is  absolutely  inimical   to
socialist world  order.   As V.I. Lenin declared: "Marxism cannot
be reconciled with  nationalism  even  if  the  latter  is  just,
irreproachable, and  civilized.   Marxism is moving forward ahead
of every national and international idea, putting the idea of the
amalgamation of all nations into a higher one."

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union affirms: "Nationalism  is
harmful  to  the  common interests of the socialist community and
above all, the people of the  country  where  it  remains,  since
isolation  from  the  socialist  camp  holds  up  that  country's
development, deprives it of  the  advantages  deriving  from  the
world socialist system."

The  plan  to harness all nations to a global socialist governing
authority would be foiled if America should insist upon the right
to make its own political and economic choices.  Citizens of  the
U.S.  would  be "deprived" of bowing to the ultimatums of a world
dictator if they cling to the Declaration of  Independence  which
upholds national sovereignty as the basis of personal liberty.

In   preparation   for   the   plan,  personal  liberty  must  be
extinguished for the "good" of the  total  group.    World  order
pioneer  George  Bernard  Shaw explained most eloquently: "We, as
Socialists, have nothing to do with liberty.  Our  message,  like
Mussolini's is one of discipline and of service."


Topic: WEAN THE AMERICANS FROM "LIBERTY" - Chap 15


In  order  to  wean  Americans  from  the concept of liberty, the
Cartel has created a new document to replace the  Declaration  of
Independence.   This   new  document  is  called  Declaration  of
INTERdependence. Written by Cartel agent Henry Steele Commager in
1975 and signed by 114  congressmen  and  senators  in  1976,  it
reads:

"Two  centuries  ago  our forefathers brought forth a new nation;
now we must join with others to bring forth a new world order.

"We affirm that the economy of all nations is a seamless web, and
that no one  nation  can  any  longer  effectively  maintain  its
processes  of production and monetary systems without recognizing
the  necessity  for  collaborative  regulation  by  international
authorities.

"We call upon all nations to strengthen and to sustain the United
Nations  and  its specialized agencies, and other institutions of
world order, and to broaden the jurisdiction of the World Court."

This militant call for world order is diametrically opposite  the
fierce  spirit  of  liberty  which  broke the back of tyranny and
swept the United States to  independence  200  years  ago.    The
Declaration  of  INTERdependence  is  the  absolute antithesis of
eighteenth century sentiment which inspired George Washington  to
admonish  in his Farewell Address: "The great rule of conduct for
us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending  our  commercial
relations  to  have  with  them as little political connection as
possible."

The  Cartel   detests   America's   original   Constitution--that
venerable  old  document which has protected personal liberty for
200 years.      Zbigniew   Brzezinski,   co-founder   of    David
Rockefeller's  Trilateral  Commission,  calls  for constitutional
reform and for "a constitutional  convention  to  re-examine  the
nation's formal institutional framework."  Brzezinski writes:

"Marxism  represents  a  further  vital and creative stage in the
maturing of man's universal vision.  Marxism is simultaneously  a
victory  of  the external, active man over the inner, passive man
and a victory  of  reason  over  belief  and  it  postulates  the
absolute  capacity  of  man  to truly understand his reality as a
point of departure for his active endeavors to shape it.  It  has
been  Marxism  that  has  served to stir the mind and to mobilize
human energies purposefully."

The Constitution, as written by the Founding  Fathers,  obstructs
global  Marxist  dictatorship because it declares that government
derives authority ONLY from the consent of the PEOPLE who are the
supreme in power, rank and authority.  (HOW MANY OF YOU  "PEOPLE"
GOT  TO  DECIDE  WHETHER OR NOT TO INVADE PANAMA OR SEND BUSINESS
AMBASSADORS INTO CHINA?) The Constitution is a further impediment
to THE PLAN because it LIMITS POWER by dividing it among  several
governing entities: federal, state and local.

Thomas  Jefferson  warned  that  if the federal government should
become the CENTER OF ALL POWER, it would  become  "as  venal  and
oppressive as  the  government  from  which  we  separated".   He
expressed the basic sentiment of the  Founding  Fathers  when  he
said:  "The  way to have good and safe government is not to trust
it all to the one, but to divide it among the  many.    What  has
destroyed liberty and rights of man in every government which has
ever existed  under  the sun?  The generalizing and concentrating
all cares and powers into one body."

It is not difficult to imagine what  Jefferson  would  say  about
entrusting  ALL THE GOVERNING POWER IN THE WORLD TO THE NAMELESS,
FACELESS,  UNELECTED  BUREAUCRATS  OF  THE  UNITED  NATIONS.  The
Cartel's   opinion   of   Jefferson  was  articulated  by  Arthur
Schlesinger who, as assistant to President  Kennedy,  called  for
the  "gradual advance of socialism in the United States through a
series of new deals".  Schlesinger declared: "Jefferson is  today
remote  and  irrelevant, a figure, not of present concern, but of
historical curiosity."


Topic: UNCHALLENGEABLE POWER - Chap 15


The  Cartel  wants  nothing  less  than   unchallengeable   power
concentrated in  a  global  federal  government.    Thus, Senator
Joseph S. Clark complained on behalf of the Ford Foundation:  "We
have  inherited from our forefathers a government structure which
so divides power that effective dealing with economic problems is
cumbersome.  They were right in their day.  But they are wrong in
ours.

"Surely we have reached the point where we can say Jefferson  was
wrong: that government is not best which governs least."

The  Cartel finds that America's legislative branch of government
is an obstruction to unbridled executive power.    Senator  Clark
also  wrote:  "I have no hesitation in stating my deep conviction
that the legislatures of America, local, state and national,  are
presently  the greatest menace to the successful operation of the
democratic process.  The executive should be strengthened at  the
expense of  the legislature."  That is not to say that the Cartel
dislikes  "democracy".   Democracy--defined   as   a   mobocracy,
demagoguery   and   unrestrained   tyranny   by  the  manipulated
majority--leads to chaos, anarchy and finally dictatorship.  In a
pure democracy, only the majority has a voice.  The  minority  is
crushed by  the  furor  of prevailing passion.  The minority goes
unheard and unprotected.  A lynch mob is pure democracy.

Democracy is necessary for implementation of THE PLAN.

The Founding Fathers of the Constitution were  champions  of  the
REPUBLICAN  form  of  government which protects the rights of not
only the majority,  but  also  those  of  the  MINORITY.  Because
Alexander  Hamilton understood that there is NO THEORETICAL LIMIT
upon the power of a majority which is determined  to  impose  its
will  upon  a weaker minority, he warned: "If we incline too much
to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy (or some  other
form of dictatorship)."

James Madison,  father of the Constitution, agreed.  He is famous
for this commentary: "Democracies have ever  been  spectacles  of
turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with
personal  security or the rights of property; and have in general
been as short in their lives as they have been violent  in  their
deaths."

THIS   IS   WHY  THE  U.S.  CONSTITUTION  MAKES  NO  MENTIONS  OF
DEMOCRACY!  IT GUARANTEES EACH OF THE STATES A REPUBLICAN FORM OF
GOVERNMENT.

The Cartel's socialist global authority, on the other hand,  will
provide  what  Lenin  called  a  "complete democracy", that is, a
socialist dictatorship by elites who refer to themselves as  "the
people".  The Soviets explain: "As for socialist democracy, it is
not   directionless  democracy,  but  directed  democracy,  i.e.,
democracy directed by the party and the state in the interest  of
the   further  development  of  socialism  and  the  building  of
communism.  This is stated by  the  Communists  straightforwardly
and openly."

Let  us  allow these things to begin the process of "soaking in",
Dharma.  You  and  Oberli  take  a  break  away  from  this  hill
today--get away  for  a  few  hours.    We can pick this up later
today.  Let there not be  "fear",  chela,  for  fear  clouds  the
senses.  There is a whole nation, nay, world of people waiting to
stand with  truth.    Intimidation  is the name of the evil game,
ruled by fear.  I have you closely bound  in  protection--now  we
must protect  those  who allowed us this opportunity.  The way we
do that is to get these documents circulating as  quickly  as  is
possible.    Let  us  always  keep  protection  of  our  brothers
uppermost in mind.  God keep you, chelas.

I now move to stand-by.  You never leave our care.

I AM HATONN TO CLEAR CIRCUIT. OUT.


Topic: CHAPTER 16

From: REC #1 HATONN

Date: SUNDAY, DECEMBER 24, 1989 7:30 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 130


And the blood shall run  in  the  streets.    Brother  will  turn
against  brother and the lands shall be laid waste and the cities
shall become strewn with the martyrs to freedom.  There shall  be
unrest in every nation of your world.  And it shall come to be in
those  days  that  the bitter-sweet victory shall sour within the
belly for he will learn too late that he sold of his freedom  and
lost of  his  path.   Man now fights for freedom---from what unto
what?


In Romania, for instance, the thousands of murdered  shall  never
be  known  for  each  family  with  a  murdered being shall think
their's among the counted.  The same is true in Panama. The  same
was true  in  the 1906 San Francisco earthquake.  The elite shall
tell you that which they wish you to hear.

You believe that Socialism "Communism" has no elite?  That all is
taken from the people and shared by the state  with  the  people?

Nay,  Mr.  Nicolae Ceausescu has over 400 million dollars in gold
in Switzerland. Now Romania "had" a population of  living  beings
of  about  23,155,000 in the approximately sized country slightly
less than your New York  State  and  the  State  of  Pennsylvania
combined--about a  fourth  the area of California or less.  That,
dear ones, is not bourgeois.

Where will these hapless people turn for money to restructure  in
their newly  found  DEMOCRATIC government?  They will turn to the
elite groups who own  your  world  and  turn  your  nations  into
nations  of  democratic  dictatorships just as The Plan outlines.
One by one, under the guise of "freedom" the nations  shall  fall
into  the  hands  of  the selected few who, when the smoke fades,
shall rule with an unbending hand and the agony of man  shall  be
as none he has ever known.

So  be  it for it has been written thus for aeons of time and you
listened not.  The United States of America is the  last  bastion
of hope  for your world.  If you can restrain the elite few, make
your commitments to  change,  it  could  be  halted---we  see  no
probability that  it  will  be  so.    Therefore,  our ones shall
endeavor to help you play within the game  as  long  as  possible
that  pockets of good examples can be established WITHIN THE LAWS
OF THE LAND, that the evolution to come shall give hope and light
unto the lost.  You have a brief  time  of  coming  together  and
really  making  a  grand difference in the sequence---will you do
it?  It is your choice.  Whether ye do or do not---the word  must
go  forth  unto  this  saddened world for man HAS YET TO GAIN THE
HIGHEST GLORY AND ABUNDANCE OF ALL IF HE WILL  BUT  TAKE  OF  IT!
Will  mankind come up off his cot of boredom, greed and lust, and
act?  The "controllers" have placed you in a stupor through  your
media---you  have  turned  to homosexuality as you have ceased to
function in wholeness with  your  opposite  gender.    They  have
painted  a  picture  of  lust  and satisfaction which is evil and
false---they have literally taught you and your babies  that  all
the ten commandments of God are wrong and shown you HOW to misuse
and abuse  them.    YOU HAVE BECOME FOLLOWERS OF SATAN EVEN WHILE
YOU DENOUNCE HIM. YOU CAN, HOWEVER, CHANGE IT IF YOU WILL!   MOST
OF  YOUR  MASSES  FIND NAUGHT OTHER THAN PAIN IN LIFE---LIFE IS A
JOY OF CELEBRATION AND YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN, LULLED  INTO  LETHARGY
BY THOSE WHO WILL DESTROY YOU. SO BE IT AND SELAH.

I AM SANANDA

MAY  TRUTH  BE YOUR ENLIGHTENMENT BEFORE THE CLOCK IS TURNED--FOR
IT LAYS UPON ITS SIDE IN THIS BRIEF INTERIM OF WHAT YOU  PERCEIVE
AS "TIME". HEED WELL!

* * *

Hatonn present to resume on the document, please.  A glorious day
the  Creator  has  gifted you with in this place of the foothills
and our craft are very close this day.   If  you  will  look,  we
shall acknowledge.    It  is a time of brotherhood in your year's
cycle but there is such pain and unhappiness as meaning has  been
wiped from your hearts.  The drive for material gain and exchange
has caused  the  season  to  lose  of its definition.  You cannot
revere God and Satan at once---Satan has stolen  your  last  Holy
Day   while   you  were  "being"  and  "reaping  the  rewards  of
abundance"---his promise shall be as all his promises--shortlived
and empty.  Your places of  "family"  are  but  on  your  "X-mas"
cards--So it has come to be.  Selah and Salu.

Thank you, chela, for this is the greatest gift you can give unto
your family and babes---and fellow-man.  The sooner we finish the
work the  sooner  man  has  opportunity  to  see  truth.   Do not
despair, little one, for joy and peace shall be your reward.  And
to you who put forth these words unto  your  brother---great  joy
shall come forth for the wash of appreciation shall flow over you
as a  tidal  wave---man is ready to hear and see.  The desire for
"freedom" shall raise again in the breast of the  human  and  you
will not  be  able  to measure your reward.  Joy and peace is the
reward within self---for a job well done.

Let us now return  to  the  illusion  and  illumination  of  more
disagreeable matters.

First,  however,  I  wish to acknowledge John S. whose letter was
received on the yesterday.  Ah yes, brother,  'tis  you  who  was
given reference.  Thank you for acknowledging.  You are held most
dear  in  our  heart  places  for  your  loyalty and never-ending
affirmation of love and willing assistance.  Ye are most  beloved
by  Germain  and  soon the way is to become more clear as to your
ultimate path--that sir, is a message directed unto you from  Sir
Germain. Blessed are ye who have patience to await thy call.

Oberli,  please  see  that  John's requests are met and see to it
that he gets  first  copies  of  all  the  journals  as  soon  as
available.   Ask  if  he  would  like  to  quietly distribute the
journals when it does not interfere with his other  duties.    We
would  supply  him with the initial few sets so that he would not
need place money in the fore.  We must have our  beloved  workers
gain  stability  and  reward  for  God  is abundance and man must
understand that he  also  provides  unto  his  faithful.    These
journals  are  destined  to blanket the lands for even in darkest
Africa--the concept is the same and it is the concept  which  has
value.  So  be  it  and  blessings  in  great  joy.   My heart is
overflowed when I can relay joyous messages.  Thank you  for  the
brief diversion.

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 12 <<================


Don

--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 18/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:54:18 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 604



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 18 <<============================


Topic: THE  PLANS  WERE  DESIGNED  THAT  WAY - Chap 23


By deliberate design, America, having enjoyed unquestioned global
military  superiority  between 1945 and the late 1960s, now faces
military defeat and submission to the godless Soviet warlords who
already control--with the blessing of the world's  most  powerful
capitalists--the  apparatus  slated  to become an unchallengeable
world police authority.

Cartel master planners wrote this  hideous  ending  to  America's
final chapter   years  ago.    Walt  Whitman  Rostow,  the  State
Department official who called for an end to America's nationhood
as historically defined, also brazenly  announced  in  1962  that
there would never be a "victory of the United States over Russia"
and  that  there  would  never  be  a "victory of capitalism over
socialism".  Indeed, that would never do!

In the 1950s, the U.S. enjoyed unquestioned strategic superiority
over Soviet weapons, which in those days could not have  hit  the
broad side  of  a  big barn.  Yet the U.S. government was already
studying conditions when surrender (after nuclear  attack)  would
be advisable.    In  that  same period, the Tavistock-linked Rand
Corporation produced a study which concluded that  the  U.S.  may
have to surrender to the Soviets without fighting.

In 1957, the U.S. had an 8-1 military lead over the Soviets. That
year,   a  Cartel  commission  chaired  by  Roman  Gaither  (Ford
Foundation) disseminated a secret report to government  officials
painting  a  bleak  picture of America's ability to withstand the
Soviet threat.   Bulging  with  disinformation,  the  report  was
intended to convince America's leaders that the U.S.  could never
successfully  compete  against  the dedicated, highly disciplined
Russians. The report intimated that--in order to avoid  death  by
incineration--America  must  prepare  for  pre-emptive surrender.
This has been the mindset of those who have directed U.S.  policy
ever since.  As two eminent political commentators have noted:

"They figured that the only way to avert nuclear incineration was
to  reduce U.S. strategic power so far below the Soviets that our
only rational alternative would be to surrender.  The means  they
chose  was,  by  fraud and deception, to destroy or scrap 1/10 of
U.S. Strategic power in-being, and to block  the  production  and
deployment of  additional  advanced  strategic  systems.  Without
these elitist programs of self-fulfilling prophecy,  the  Soviets
could  not  possibly  have  moved  so  close  to  a  first-strike
capability against the United States."

Likewise,  the  Committee   on   The   Present   Danger,   quoted
intermittently  in  the  review  of  U.S. and Soviet weaponry, is
packed with  distinguished  world  order  advocates,  disarmament
veterans and  Soviet  apologists.   These include Dean Rusk, Doug
Dillon and Paul Nitze, who have all dedicated  their  careers  to
disarming   the   United   States   and   to   protecting  Soviet
imperialism.  The Committee's assessment of  America's  now  real
military  inferiority  is  undoubtedly being used to stampede the
masses into the New World Order.

Only the shadowy figures within the inner core  of  Cartel  power
know  whether or not a Soviet nuclear attack is planned to hasten
America's surrender to The Plan. You can assume that the Cartel's
billionaire families wish to prevent nuclear war  at  all  costs,
while  making  the  transition  into global dictatorship, for you
might assume they do not actually wish to be nuked also.

IS THERE  SOMETHING  TO  PREVENT  THESE  CHARMING  COMRADES  FROM
TURNING  AGAINST  THEIR  SUPER-RICH  CAPITALIST COLLABORATORS AND
ATTACK THE UNITED STATES IN A DOUBLE-CROSS---ONCE YOUR AMERICA IS
DISARMED?  JUST THE FEW ELITE WORLD ORDER PLANNERS WILL BE SPARED
AND  THAT  BECAUSE  OF  A  PRE-DETERMINED  COMPACT   WITHIN   THE
BROTHERHOOD OF DEATH.

Whether  the  Soviets would attack through the world police force
or with their own military machine, or with a combination of both
is a moot point.   You  can  know  that  strategy  for  America's
ultimate  surrender after Soviet nuclear attack has been outlined
by former Defense Secretary  Robert  McNamara,  whose  calculated
policy  of  unilateral  disarmament  left  the  American military
apparatus in shambles by the early 1970's (Phyllis  Schlafly  and
Chester Ward, The Betrayers New York: Pere Marquette, 1968).

McNamara  suggested in 1983 that America continue to unilaterally
disarm by junking the MX, by  withdrawing  nuclear  weapons  from
Europe  and then establishing a "multi-national crisis-management
team" to supervise what remains of America's weapons.  His  prize
recommendation   was:  "McGeorge  Bundy,  the  national  security
advisor to Kennedy and Johnson, has suggested  that  any  nuclear
attack  be met with a retaliatory strike at a lesser level, and I
completely agree.  If nuclear war starts, one must  try  to  stop
it;  this  lesser-response strategy would lead to a de-escalation
rather than an escalation of any nuclear conflict."

Oh my dear ones, it gets ever so much worse.

This is typical of the groveling world view  of  those  who  have
prevented America from developing even a CIVIL-DEFENSE program to
protect  the  population  from radiation and starvation, lest the
Soviets  become  angry  and  accuse   America   of   "aggressive"
behavior.

Because a Soviet first-strike will probably kill at least half of
the  U.S.  population  and  because  even  an ALL-OUT retaliatory
response  would  be  insufficient  to  defeat  the  Soviets,  the
McNamara-Bundy  proposal  for  a  delayed and muffled response to
nuclear attack is nothing more than a proposal for  unconditional
and immediate surrender.

The  surrender motif has always figured heavily in the schemes of
world order master planners.  Bertrand Russell,  collaborator  at
the  Pugwash  conferences at which U.S. industrialists and Soviet
leaders planned the step-by-step unilateral  disarmament  of  the
West,  instructed  Britain: "We must learn to submit to law, even
when imposed by aliens whom we hate  and  despise,  and  whom  we
believe to be blind to all righteousness."

An  innovative  strategy  for  America's  surrender to the Soviet
Juggernaut has been outlined by New Age pacifists Ron  Sider  and
Richard  Taylor.  In  NUCLEAR  HOLOCAUST AND CHRISTIAN HOPE, they
urge immediate and complete UNILATERAL DISARMAMENT of the  United
States,  which  they  admit would "very likely result in a Soviet
invasion".  They also readily acknowledge that a Soviet  invasion
could result in millions of American deaths.

These   degenerate   nerds   then   explain  how  Americans  must
nevertheless RESTRAIN THEMSELVES DURING SOVIET INVASION:

"The landing would be peaceful.    No  American  artillery  would
fire; no  jets  would  strafe.    Instead  of  American  soldiers
crouching behind tanks and pointing guns at  them,  the  invaders
would see tens of thousands of unarmed people carrying signs with
messages in the invader's language.

"Like  the Czechs, Hungarians and East Germans during the Russian
invasion of those countries, Americans  would  climb  up  on  the
tanks and  try  to talk to soldiers: 'Why have you come?  Why are
you invading a peaceful nation  that  is  not  threatening  you?'
Loudspeakers  would  explain  that  the  troops  are  welcome  as
tourists but will be opposed as invaders.

"If members of the crowd were not able  to  keep  discipline  and
started  to  threaten  the  soldiers,  special U.S. Peace-keeping
Teams would move in non-violently to  restrain  the  persons  who
were losing control."

IF  I  INDULGED  IN  THE ACT OF EATING, I WOULD MOST SURELY VOMIT
RIGHT NOW. CAN LITTLE EARTH BROTHERS BE  SO  STUPID?    WELL,  IT
WOULD APPEAR TO BE SO.

Dr.  Gary North has pointed out, such a non-violent welcome could
be moderately dangerous for the Soviets too, because  they  might
die laughing.  So be it for we of Command Fleet have.

A  bit from WHAT TO DO WHEN THE RUSSIANS COME: "WE CANNOT TOTALLY
EXCLUDE AN ALL-OUT  NUCLEAR  WAR  IN  WHICH  AMERICA  IS  LARGELY
DESTROYED  WITH  FAR LESS SOVIET LOSS, RESULTING IN OCCUPATION BY
MOSCOW'S TROOPS OF A RUINED, DEPOPULATED LAND, A  SCENARIO  QUITE
COMMONLY FOUND IN SOVIET MILITARY LITERATURE.

"BUT  WHAT  SEEMS  MORE  LIKELY,  GIVEN THE SOVIET ACHIEVEMENT OF
EFFECTIVE SUPERIORITY, WOULD BE A  CRUMBLING  OF  AMERICA  EITHER
AFTER  A  LIMITED  SOVIET NUCLEAR STRIKE OR SIMPLY UNDER A THREAT
AGAINST WHICH THE UNITED STATES  WOULD  HAVE  BECOME  PRACTICALLY
DEFENSELESS.

"MILITARY  OCCUPATION,  PERHAPS  UNDER  A  GRADUAL  AND PARTIALLY
CAMOUFLAGED FACADE, WOULD BE INEVITABLE. AND, HOWEVER DONE,  THIS
WOULD  BE  ACCOMPANIED  BY  A  SLOW  BUT  TOTAL  SOVIETIZATION OF
AMERICA.

"THERE IS NO POINT IN  BEING  STARRY-EYED  ABOUT  THE  SCOPE  AND
POSSIBILITIES  OF  THE AMERICAN RESISTANCE. IF RESISTANCE METHODS
HAVE GROWN MORE SOPHISTICATED, SO HAVE  THE  MEANS  OF  COMBATING
THEM. IT WILL BE A LONG STRUGGLE."


Topic: LET US DRAW SOME CONCLUSIONS FOR THOUGHT FOOD - Chap 23


According  to  the  above  scenarios,  when American survivors of
Soviet attack and invasion lie prostrate at the  boots  of  their
godless  oppressors, the world will be plunged into its final and
darkest age.  America, once the hope  and  light  of  the  world,
would become  a  land  of concentration camps.  Millions of those
schooled in the "old world order" would be summarily executed  or
suffer slow death by hard labor and starvation.  The world's boat
people  and  foot  people and the would-be escapees and defectors
dreaming of  reaching  freedom  would  have  their  dreams  of  a
promised land extinguished forever.

Yet, there are other forces at work in the universe.  The Cartel,
with  its  boundless  greed  and  the  Soviet slavers, drunk with
power, are not the only players in the human drama.  There  is  a
Higher  Power  confronting what the apostle Paul described as the
"rulers of  the  darkness  of  this  world"  and  "the  spiritual
wickedness in high places".

Despite   the  hysterical  protests  of  Marxists  and  Humanists
everywhere, there IS a  just  God,  the  Creator  and  Author  of
freedom and   human   dignity.     This  magnificent  and  loving
intelligence  anticipated  The  Plan   millenniums   before   its
perpetrators were  born.  In His mercy, He has given His children
a promise that the blood-drenched BEAST will die in an  agonizing
death.   John  the  Revelator tells you that the gangsters behind
the great global monetary dictatorship and the  police  authority
enforcing  it  face  one  minor  disadvantage----THEIR  DAYS  ARE
NUMBERED!

John revealed that the Cartel has been allotted a LIMITED SEGMENT
OF TIME FOR ITS GLOBAL PROJECT. He gave clues  that  the  BEAST'S
SECRET   COMBINATION   WILL   ITSELF  BE  BURNED  with  the  very
instruments it has prepared for world  domination.    Apparently,
something  yet  unforeseen will cause the great Red fetus to turn
on its own mother for the kill.  John's vivid  description  of  a
terrible,  fiery  cataclysm  that will engulf the world's richest
cities  is  undeniably  a  description  of   nuclear   holocaust.
Referring  to  the  world's great financial centers as "Babylon",
John gave you this incredible preview--if you but pay attention:

"And he (the angel) cried mightily with a strong  voice,  saying,
Babylon  the  great  is  fallen,  is  fallen,  and  is become the
habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul  spirit,  and  a
cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

"For  all  nations  have  drunk  of  the wine of the wrath of her
fornication,  and  the  kings  of  the   earth   have   committed
fornication  with  her  and  the merchants of the earth are waxed
rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death and mourning,
and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong
is the Lord God who judgeth her.

"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and  mourn  over  her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more.

"The merchants of these things which were made rich by her, shall
stand  afar  off  for  the fear of their torment (radioactivity),
weeping and wailing.

"For in one hour so great riches is come to  naught--for  in  one
hour is she made desolate.

"For  thy  merchants  were the great men of the earth; for by thy
sorceries were all nations deceived.  And in her  was  found  the
blood  of  prophets,  and of saints, and all that were slain upon
the earth."


DO YOU CARE TO CONTINUE, LITTLE CHELAS?  DO YOU WANT TO HEAR  THE
TESTIMONY THAT CONFIRMS?

It  is,  you  know, confirmed by sacred testimony and by long-ago
prophets and seers that: the millions  who  died  in  global  and
regional  wars,  the millions who died during Communist invasion,
the hundreds of millions who died in Soviet and Red Chinese slave
labor death camps, the legions murdered while  trying  to  escape
totalitarianism,  the  millions  condemned  to  death  for  their
religious faith-------all  were  victims  of  one  single  secret
combination  whose  perpetrators  and  benefactors  have lived in
great wealth.

Incredible as it  may  seem  this  day,  John  foresaw  that  the
Cartel's oppressive global economic system (computer networks and
all)  would  be  zeroed  out  in  ONE  HOUR.  Think of it, little
brothers!  Generations of intensive labor to build a totalitarian
world empire EVAPORATED IN LESS THAN ONE HOUR. One hour is  about
the  length  of  time  it  will take Soviet subs to nuke American
coastal cities into oblivion---so be it and selah.

Yet, what will become of  the  forces  that  have  burned,  in  a
double-cross,   the   Cartel's   great  corporate  and  financial
centers?  Will the jaws of the Soviet python swallow  the  entire
Western Hemisphere?    That is surely Soviet design, but the best
laid plans of tyrants have gone awry throughout history.  Without
Chase  Manhattan,  the   Export-Import   Bank   and   the   large
mega-corporations  of  the  West  to  back  and  supply them, the
Communists will fail.  A clue to the  inevitable  destruction  of
the  Red  cancer  is found in the observations of Viktor Suvorov,
whose experience in the Soviet military leads  him  to  conclude:
"The  fastest  Soviet  aircraft  are  flown  by  men  who  detest
socialism with all their hearts.  In wartime, tens of millions of
soldiers would have an opportunity to desert--and they would take
it.  Soviet soldiers would surrender by the million."

COULD IT BE THAT YOU MIGHT GAIN FRIENDS FROM THESE  ENEMIES---MAN
TO MAN OUT OF THE DARKNESS OF IGNORANCE AND SUBTERFUGE INTO LIGHT
AND TRUTH?  COULD IT BE POSSIBLE?  THEY, TOO, ARE BLINDED ONES OF
THE LIES.

The Soviet  empire  is  a  seething  mass  of dissent.  There are
hundreds of millions of slaves  in  Communist-occupied  countries
who despise  their  Soviet,  Cuban  and Red Chinese masters.  Now
being held as prisoners of war within  their  own  nations,  they
would    take    any    opportunity   to   rise   against   their
cage-keepers---you have just these past  two  months  experienced
the  extent  to  which  man  will  go  to gain freedom from those
oppressors.  Thus, during the chaos of global war, it is possible
the controllers could lose control of their dominions.


Topic: BACK  TO  SATAN---ALWAYS  BACK  TO  SATAN - Chap 23


The Cartel's Plan---Satan's  counterfeit  scheme  for  millennial
perfection--must ultimately  fail.  Built upon the foundations of
greed, deceit, and genocide, The Plan harbors the  seeds  of  its
own destruction.  It will inevitably collapse upon itself.

The Cartel's Plan is merely a blip within the greater plan of God
the  Father.  The Cartel's Plan is an opportunity for each man to
choose between good and evil.  It is an opportunity  for  mankind
to  behold the ripest fruits of Satanism. It is a lesson you will
take with you to eternity.

After the BEAST's great monetary system  collapses,  your  Christ
will necessarily seize the reigns of global power and destroy the
armies of the BEAST.

Let  us  look  at another thing that John said: "And I saw heaven
opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat  upon  him  was
called  Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and
make war.

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should
smite the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; and
he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.

"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING
OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

"And I saw the beast, and the  kings  of  the  earth,  and  their
armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the
horse.

"And  the  beast  was  taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
received the mark of the beast,  and  them  that  worshipped  his
image.   These  both  were cast alive into a lake of fire burning
with brimstone.

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of  the
bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

"And  he  laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the
Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."


Topic: YOU  STILL  HAVE  A  DISTANCE  TO  GO - Chap 23


The ultimate fate of the BEAST  and  his  disciples  is  set  and
irreversible,  the  world  has  yet  to  experience  the  MAXIMUM
EXTENSION of the Cartel's eco-political power.    In  his  zenith
fast   approaching,   the  BEAST  WILL  BE  SO  FORMIDABLE,  BOTH
POLITICALLY AND MILITARILY, THAT THE WORLD WILL SAY, "WHO IS LIKE
UNTO THE BEAST?  WHO IS ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH  HIM?"    YET,  YOU
MUST  REMEMBER  THAT  THE POWER OF THE BEAST WILL BE COMMENSURATE
ONLY WITH THE NUMBER OF WORLD CITIZENS WHO  CAN  BE  DECEIVED  IN
SUPPORTING HIS EVIL PLAN. WHICH WILL YOU CHOOSE?


Topic: HONOR  UNTO  THE  FEW - Chap 23


In  honor I dedicate these final words unto ones who shall remain
unnamed for their safety and security---for that reason  have  we
penned this document.

There are a brave few who continue and shall continue until it is
over,  to  focus  on  the Cartel families themselves, identifying
their corporate interlocks, their political front  organizations,
their  influential  think  tanks,  their propaganda vehicles, the
sources of their  unfathomable  wealth  and  their  international
network of corruption and influence.

They  will positively identify the central coordinating mechanism
through which governments of the world are given  their  marching
orders---and  we shall support them unto the end for the truth of
it.  With unimpeachable documents, they will identify the linking
control centers through which the Cartel selects and  trains  the
governing elite of Soviet Russia and Communist China.

You,  as  the  citizenry  of  a  dying  world  must look at these
things.  You must look  and  examine  the  Cartel's  super-secret
Brotherhood  of  Death  whose members swear allegiance to a power
cult which bases  initiation  rituals  on  the  human  skull  and
bone--ancient symbols of death.  For generations, members of this
clandestined  order  have  been  placed  in  powerful  government
positions to augment The Plan through war and revolution.

Look now at some of the members of this brotherhood: Members have
included Roosevelt's secretary of war, Henry L. Stimson, who knew
WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY DAYS IN ADVANCE THAT PEARL  HARBOR  WOULD
BE  ATTACKED  AND  WHO  AUTHORIZED  THE USE OF THE ATOMIC BOMB ON
JAPAN AFTER THAT NATION HAD SERVED ITS PURPOSES. The  Brotherhood
of  Death  also spawned former Ford Foundation president McGeorge
Bundy and his brother William. As presidential assistants,  these
two  men  directed  the  escalation  of  the  Vietnam  War  while
simultaneously maintaining links to the anti-war movement.


George Bush, who personally strong-armed Western European leaders
into accepting the catastrophic INF Treaty, has been selected  by
the  most  powerful people in the world to preside over America's
final surrender to The Plan. The Bush family, at  the  center  of
Cartel power, has long been affiliated with the Wall Street nexus
which  financed  the  Russian Bolshevik Revolution. George Bush's
father was a  partner  in  Brown  Brothers  Harriman,  a  private
banking firm packed with Skull and Bones brothers.  This firm was
a  foremost  vehicle  through  which  the  Cartel nurtured Soviet
dictatorship in its infancy.

Like his father before him, George Bush is a member of the  Skull
and  Bones  Brotherhood of Death. Indicative of the awesome power
of this secret order is the fact that the  Brotherhood  of  Death
has had an office in the White House for the last eight years and
it now holds the presidency of the United States of America.

The  Cartel  operates for its own sinister purposes the executive
branch of the U.S. government, hand-picking and  controlling  all
U.S. presidents and their appointees.

The  Cartel,  having  pre-planned  both  world  wars and also the
Korean and Vietnam conflagrations, controlled U.S.  forces  while
also backing and financing the "enemy".

The  Cartel,  having  seized  control of public education, is now
constructing a national propaganda  apparatus  for  uniform  mass
indoctrination on behalf of The Plan.

* * *

NOW  FOR  THE  SURPRISE--YOU  THOUGHT  THIS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT?
NAY--IT  IS  THE  MOST  FUNDAMENTAL  FOUNDATION  OF   A   BESTIAL
RELIGION.  LEADERS DENOUNCE TRUTH AND GOD IN THE SAME BREATH THAT
THEY  CLAIM TO HONOR AND REVERE HIS PRESENCE----A MOST REMARKABLE
MARK OF THE SATAN WITNESS.

THEY UPHOLD LUCIFER AS "THE LIGHT" AND  THEY  CALL  FOR  RUTHLESS
SUPPRESSION  OF  CHRISTIANITY AND ALL FREE FUNDAMENTAL WORSHIPERS
OF GOD. THEY  SUGGEST  REVISION  OF  THE  BIBLE  TO  PORTRAY  THE
CARTEL'S  PLAN AS GOD'S PLAN JUST AS THE COUNCILS OF THE CHURCHES
HAVE "VOTED IN"  ALL  MANNER  OF  EVIL  BEHAVIOR  THAT  BLATANTLY
REBUKES THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE CREATION AND GOD.

THEY  SHALL  FURTHER  CONTINUE  TO  IMPLEMENT  HIDEOUS  GENOCIDAL
PROGRAMS TO DRASTICALLY REDUCE  THE  WORLD'S  POPULATION  THROUGH
AIDS, MURDER, DRUGS AND CRIMES OF ALL SORTS AGAINST HUMANITY.

* * * * *

MAY  THE  ONES  I  HONOR THIS DAY COME INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS
SALUTE UNTO THEM FOR THAT WHICH THEY DO CAN SAVE  A  CIVILIZATION
OF MAN. SO BE IT.

* * * * *


Following is the WORLD ORDER MODELS PROJECT (WOMP). The following
bureaucratic  apparatus for world government has been designed by
the  Rockefeller/Carnegie-funded  WOMP.  This  "central  guidance
system",  as outlined by WOMP director Richard Falk in A STUDY OF
FUTURE WORLDS (1975), is designed to administer GLOBAL SOCIALISM.
It includes a global  police  authority  slated  to  control  ALL
nuclear and conventional weapons.

The  WORLD GOVERNMENT, now growing steadily upon the framework of
the United Nations,  will  require  millions  of  authorities  to
maintain  effective  control  and surveillance of several billion
global citizens.  Americans presently have ZERO electoral control
over the thousands of appointed United  Nations  bureaucrats  who
already administer decisions affecting the U.S. both economically
and militarily.    As  the world authority gains ever more power,
global citizens will continue to  have  little  or  no  electoral
control of  the  elitists  who  dictate  world policy.  Here is a
skeletal outline of the world governing authority  as  envisioned
by WOMP master planners:


A.   WORLD   ASSEMBLY:   This   is  the  principal  policy-making
(legislative) body  comprised  of  three  chambers:  Assembly  of
Governments,  Assembly  of  Peoples and Assembly of Organizations
and Associations. This body will "set world standards" and render
"binding decisions".

B. COUNCIL OF PRINCIPALS: This is the chief  administrative  body
designed  to  implement  and  enforce  directives  of  the  World
Assembly. The Council will be comprised  of  a  secretary-general
and  twenty-one other officials chosen from the three chambers of
the Assembly.

C. WORLD IMPLEMENTING BOARD: This nest of overseers will link the
World Assembly and the Council to the following:

1.  WORLD  SECURITY  SYSTEM:  This  is  a   massive,   tripartite
bureaucracy  charged  with:  disarmament  of  all  nations (World
Disarmament Service); the maintenance of global "peace" through a
global military force (World Security Forces); and settlement  of
disputes (World Grievance System).

2.   WORLD  ECONOMIC  SYSTEM:  This  network  will  coordinate  a
computerized global socialist economy.  It will enable the Cartel
to centralize control of all major components  of  global  wealth
including natural resources, trade and labor.

a.   WORLD  ECONOMIC PLANNING AND EQUITY COUNCIL: This department
will maintain a global network of authorities who will "equalize"
the economic  status  of  the  masses.    It  will  ensure   full
employment  for  global citizens who may be shifted from place to
place to fulfill their employment "duties".

b.  WORLD TRADE SYSTEM: Directors will supervise all business and
commerce, and shape  global  trade  through  "redistributive  and
equalizing objectives".  Officials will impose duties on transfer
of  goods  which,  in  Richard Falk's words, "embellish life with
ornaments of super-affluence".

c.   WORLD  MONETARY  AND  TAX  POLICY  COUNCIL:  Directors  will
regulate the "single paper currency" used in world trade and they
will administer a global taxation program.

d.   WORLD  TECHNOLOGY BOARD: Officials will maintain "continuous
scrutiny of all human activity" in order to assess  environmental
consequences.

e.   WORLD DEVELOPMENT OFFICE: Officers will coordinate socialist
redistribution of wealth and global economic leveling.

3. WORLD SYSTEM FOR HUMAN DEVELOPMENT: This apparatus is designed
to supervise the "development of man".  According to Falk,  world
order  bureaucrats  will  reshape,  restrict or prohibit policies
which do not  reflect  the  Cartel's  approved  (Humanist)  world
view.   The  raw  power  to be exercised by this authority can be
assessed from Falk's didactic statement: "However, we do  take  a
position of generalized opposition to 'fashion' and 'advertising'
which  encourage  waste  of  resources  and  shallow  horizons of
personal aspiration."

a.  WORLD FORUM OF LONG RANGE  PLANNING  FOR  HUMAN  DEVELOPMENT:
Directors  will manage the "human welfare" of global citizens and
coordinate "town meetings" on a global scale  to  deal  with  all
facts of  mental  health  and  human development.  This authority
will  also  coordinate  world  order  propaganda  for   satellite
television.

b.   WORLD  FORUM FOR HUMAN DEVELOPMENT: This network will insure
that  environmental  factors  "facilitate  the   development   of
personality  and  character  along WOMP lines" so that all global
citizens will be sure to share a uniform (socialist) world view.

c.  WORLD COMMISSION AND COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS: These  officials,
selected   by   the   secretary-general,  will  render  decisions
regarding "abuse of human rights"  in  order  to  advance  WOMP's
commitment  to  what  Falk  calls  "pursuit  of  racial,  sexual,
religious, and economic equality".

4. WORLD SYSTEM FOR ECOLOGICAL BALANCE: Officials will deal  with
issues  of pollution and they will operate a surveillance network
designed to "facilitate greater understanding of the facts, risks
and choices facing the control centers of the  preferred  world".
Bureaucrats  will  specialize in "identifying areas of consensus"
and concentrate on "strategies  to  mitigate  dissent".    (That,
friends, means to terminate any dissenters!)


YES, THIS IS A NIGHTMARE--BUT YOU WILL NOT SIMPLY WAKE UP AND THE
BEAST  WILL  BE GONE. IF, HOWEVER, YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, EVERYTHING
WORTH HAVING IN THIS WORLD SHALL BE GONE!


There is a book entitled THE PLAN. Please obtain a copy for these
wondrous ones  have  risked  their  very  lives  to  bring  forth
information to save yours.  The address to contact is:

Independent Research Associates Box 2013 Hayden, Idaho 83835

They  need support that they can continue this work for you ones.
THE PLAN is a small book which costs approximately $7.00---please
support these fine  researchers.    If  you  do  not  wish  their
book--send  a  contribution for if something is not done SOON, IT
WILL BE TOO LATE---FOREVER!

I AM HATONN

MAY GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT WHICH YOU  DO
FOR YOU ARE AS LAMBS UNTO THE SLAUGHTER.


=============>> END: Cry Of The Phoenix <<=======================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 12/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:46:34 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 665



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 12 <<=============================


Topic: FOUNDATION  FOR  GLOBAL  DICTATORSHIP - Chap 16


I  feel  blasphemous  to move from such a delightful subject into
such a horrendous topic--nonetheless, we must move on.

We  shall  examine  the  Cartel  strategy   for   shredding   the
Constitution  and  flushing its remnants into the sewer of global
dictatorship---BY THE YEAR  2000.  THAT  IS  MOST  CLOSE  INDEED,
FRIENDS.

FIRSTLY: RESTRUCTURE THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

The  Plan requires that the Constitution ultimately be discarded.
Therefore, the Cartel  spent  millions  of  dollars  to  draft  A
Proposed  Constitutional  Model  for  the "Newstates" of America.
(Oh yes, it is documented!) The document is published in EMERGING
CONSTITUTION by Rexford G. Tugwell (New  York:  Harper  and  Row,
1974). The Proposed New Constitution for the Newstates of America
is  also  available  from:  Liberty  Lobby, 300 Independence Ave.
S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003.

This new Constitution was produced in the Sixties by  the  Center
for  the Study of Democratic Institutions. Headquartered in Santa
Barbara, California, this think tank was lavishly funded  by  the
Ford  Foundation,  the Cartel's foremost institution dedicated to
merging the United States with  the  Union  of  Soviet  Socialist
Republics.

The  Newstates  constitution  is so named because it replaces the
fifty states with twenty regional bureaucratic  groupings  called
"newstates".  It  creates, in theory, a TOTAL SOCIALIST STATE for
contemporary America. It brings every  facet  of  human  endeavor
under control of centralized planning and regulatory agencies.  A
huge network of "overseers", "chancellors", "planners", and other
powerful  administrators  would supervise all industry, business,
agriculture, production and distribution of goods  and  services.
They  would  dictate policy for distribution of profits, capital,
consumer prices, wages, utilities and  all  "practices  affecting
the public interest".

Newstates  facilitates  The Plan by transferring authority to the
world government through  the  House  of  Representatives,  whose
duties  are  "to assist in the maintenance of world order and for
this  purpose,  when  the  President  shall  recommend,  to  vest
jurisdiction    in   international   legislative,   judicial   or
administrative agencies."

Other  highlights  of   this   document   include:   presidential
appointment  of  senators who retain office for life; supervision
of the judicial  system  by  ONE  super-judge  whose  legions  of
appointees   would   decide   if   the   newstates  had  violated
international  law;  mandatory  disarmament  of   all   citizens;
state-supervised  education for those who "meet appropriate tests
of eligibility".  Newstates endorses  suspension  of  freedom  of
speech,  communication,  movement, assembly and petition during a
declared emergency.    The  word  "emergency"  appears   in   the
Newstates Constitution dozens of times.

In  preparation  for reconstructive surgery on America's original
Constitution,  the  Cartel   created   the   Committee   on   the
Constitutional System (CCS). Packed with world order enthusiasts,
CCS   has  received  massive  funding  from  the  Cartel's  large
tax-exempt foundations,  including  Rockefeller,  Ford,  American
Express and the Dillon Fund.

CCS  is chaired by C. Douglas Dillon, who through his former Wall
Street firm, Dillon  Read,  was  heavily  involved  in  financing
Hitler and the Nazi movement prior to World War II. Dillon, worth
an  estimated $180 million, has been a trustee of the Rockefeller
Foundation. He is also an official sponsor  of  the  World  Order
Models Project.

CCS  co-founder  is  Trilateral  Commissioner,  Lloyd  N. Cutler.
Cutler agrees that  the  Constitution  must  be  restructured  to
provide less separation between the executive and the legislative
branches.    He   recommends   remodeling   America's   political
institutions to accommodate a  parliamentary  system  similar  to
those  of  socialist  Western  Europe.  Cutler  states  that  the
solution for occasional congressional  obstruction  of  executive
plans  and  projects,  especially "foreign policy actions", is to
bring the Congress under iron-fisted control  of  the  President,
i.e., the Cartel, because:

"We  are  now  an integral part of a closely interconnected world
economic and political system.  We have to respond as quickly and
decisively to what happens abroad as to what happens  within  the
portion   of  this  world  system  that  is  governed  under  our
Constitution. And when Congress does act, it is prone  to  impose
statutory  conditions or prohibitions that fetter the President's
policy  discretion  to  negotiate   an   appropriate   assistance
package."

As  Cutler  affirms,  it  is  necessary to greatly strengthen the
executive branch of the federal government, which will then yield
its powers to the global authority by the year 2000,  or  shortly
thereafter.  CCS has issued reports and recommendations proposing
RADICAL  constitutional  changes  that  will  allow the Cartel to
centralize  power  for  The  Plan.  CCS  proposals,  designed  to
circumvent the will of the people include:

1. Placing President, Vice President and congressional candidates
on a package slate so voters would be forced to vote "party", not
"the person".

2. Allowing the President to dissolve Congress when it refuses to
cooperate.

3. Using public funds to finance congressional campaigns.

4. Doubling the length of congressional terms.

5.  Empowering  Congress  or  the President to call new elections
during a "deadlock".

6. Merging the legislative and executive branches  by  permitting
congressmen   and   senators  to  hold  Cabinet  positions  while
retaining their congressional seats.

7. Empowering the federal government to  regulate  and  supervise
cities.

CCS,  the  National Taxpayers Union, and other Cartel instruments
are  pushing  relentlessly  for  a   constitutional   convention.
Several   dozen  states  have  petitioned  Congress  for  such  a
convention for discussion of a balanced budget amendment, despite
the fact that a  balanced  budget  is  already  mandated  by  the
Constitution in Article 1, Section 2.

This  part of the Constitution provides for the extinguishment of
debt each fiscal year by requiring Congress to collect  from  the
states  (according  to  their  congressional  representation) the
remaining needed tax revenues.

Topic: STRATEGIES - Chap 16


Legal experts, including Walter Dellinger of Duke University  Law
School  and  Gerald  Gunther  of Stanford Law School, have agreed
that there is no way to LIMIT  the  agenda  of  a  constitutional
convention.  Therefore, a constitutional convention could provide
the  Cartel opportunity to radically restructure the Constitution
along the model of Newstates. This would fulfill the prophecy  of
George Washington who warned in his Farewell Address: "One method
of  assault  may  be  to  effect in the forms of the Constitution
alterations which will impair the energy of the system, and  thus
to undermine what cannot be directly overthrown."

SECONDLY: REPLACE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS WITH PRIVILEGES.

The  Founding Fathers of your nation declared that the basic Bill
of Rights freedoms are  inalienable---that  is,  God-given.  They
maintained  that  inalienable  rights  can be neither created nor
suspended by government dictum.  They believed that government is
instituted SOLELY TO  PROTECT  the  inalienable  rights  of  each
individual.

THAT  IS  WHY THE CONSTITUTION STATES THAT CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO
LAW WHICH RESTRICTS OR SUSPENDS INALIENABLE FREEDOM OF  RELIGION,
SPEECH, PRESS, ETC.

The   Cartel,  however,  believes  that  all  rights  are  merely
"privileges" created by government and liable to manipulation  or
revocation by bureaucratic whim.

According  to  Richard  Falk, WOMP planners have structured world
order "rights" based, in part, upon the United Nations  Universal
Declaration  of  Human  Rights.  The phraseology of this document
closely parallels the  Constitution  of  the  Soviet  Union.  The
Declaration  of  Human  Rights extols certain inalienable rights,
then opens  the  door  to  revocation  of  these  rights  through
"determined by law" clauses.  For example, it declares:

"In  the  exercise  of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be
subject only to such limitations as are determined by law  solely
for  the  purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the
rights  and  freedoms  of  others  and  of   meeting   the   just
requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in
the democratic society.  These rights and freedoms may in no case
be  exercised  contrary  to  the  purposes  and principles of the
United Nations."

Interestingly, the "purposes"  and  "principles"  of  the  United
Nations align  precisely  with  Soviet  Marxist  ideology.    The
following is from the Los Angeles Times:

"U.N.  Secretary-General  U  Thant  praised  Vladimir  I.  Lenin,
founder  of  the Soviet Union, as a political leader whose ideals
were reflected in the U.N. Charter.

"Lenin was a man with a mind of great clarity  and  incisiveness,
and  his  ideas  have  had  a profound influence on the course of
contemporary history."

Lenin was an incisive terrorist.  He  told  the  Bolsheviks:  "We
have  never  rejected  terrorism  on principle, nor can we do so.
Terrorism is a form of military operation that  may  be  usefully
applied."    Lenin  defined  "democratic"  terrorism  with  great
clarity: "A revolution  is  undoubtedly  the  most  authoritarian
thing there is.  It is the act whereby one part of the population
imposes  its  will  upon  the  other  part  by  means  of rifles,
bayonets, and cannon.  And the victorious party, if it  does  not
wish  to  have fought in vain, must maintain its rule by means of
the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionaries."

Global citizens  might  be  interested  to  ask  which  of  their
inalienable rights will remain intact if:

1. None of their rights can be exercised contrary to purposes and
principles of the U.N., and

2.  The  U.N.  reflects  the  ideals  of  the  mass-murderer  and
terrorist, Vladimir Lenin.

According to Falk, the  Cartel's  world  government  will  likely
grant global citizens the following world order "privileges":

1.  The right to food, housing, health, and education (See Soviet
constitution, articles 39-45).

2. The right to be protected against genocide, torture, arbitrary
arrest, detention and execution, and against what Falk  ominously
calls  "enemies  of the state" (See Soviet constitution, articles
4, 37, 39, 49 and 54-58).

3. The right to participate in choice of political leadership, of
job, of place of residence, of cultural activity and  orientation
and  the  right  to  participate  in  "procedures  in shaping and
execution of norms" (See Soviet constitution, articles 2,  3,  8,
48-50).

4.  The  right to work in order to be reasonably secure about the
prospects of minimal physical well-being and survival (See Soviet
constitution, articles 40, 60, 89-94, 146).

Noticeably absent from WOMP's obtuse,  ill-defined  "rights"  are
these  inalienable constitutional guarantees, which WOMP planners
obviously consider immaterial in a socialist democracy:

FREEDOM OF SPEECH

FREEDOM OF THE PRESS

FREEDOM OF RELIGION

THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE PEACEFULLY

THE RIGHT TO PETITION GOVERNMENT

THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS

THE RIGHT TO A WELL-REGULATED MILITIA

THE RIGHT TO REFRAIN FROM BEING A WITNESS AGAINST ONESELF

THE RIGHT TO JUST COMPENSATION FOR PROPERTY TAKEN FOR PUBLIC USE

THE GUARANTEE AGAINST UNREASONABLE  BAIL,  UNREASONABLE  SEARCHES
AND SEIZURES

THE RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL BY JURY

ET CETERA


THIRDLY: BIND AMERICA WITH INTERNATIONAL TREATIES

The  Cartel  believes  that  both  the Constitution and America's
national sovereignty must be dismantled  in  increments  so  that
Americans do  not become prematurely alarmed.  (Well, I would say
that is working most effectively.) Richard Gardner explains their
"termite" principle: "In short, the 'house of world  order'  will
have  to  be  built  from  the bottom up rather than from the top
down.  An end run around national sovereignty, eroding  it  piece
by  piece,  will  accomplish  much  more  than  the old-fashioned
frontal assault."

The Cartel  has  successfully  eroded  national  sovereignty  and
strengthened  the  institutions  of  world  government by binding
America to thousands of international  treaties  and  agreements.
For  example,  the  United Nations International Wheat Conference
has for years decreed how much wheat America may sell in  foreign
countries and  at  what  price.    At  the  same time, small U.S.
farmers have suffered massive bankruptcies due  to,  among  other
things, low commodities prices.  One researcher concludes:

"After  two centuries of disdain for international organizations,
the United States in the post-World War II era has become one  of
history's great  joiners.    In  a short time, the U.S. signed on
with scores of groups.  So vast grew this nation's memberships in
international groups, that the State Department had to create  in
1954  an entire section to deal with international organizations.
By early 1983, the Assistant Secretary of State for International
Organizations had a staff of 172 to monitor U.S.  relations  with
98 international groups.  In addition to those, the U.S. has ties
to at least 50 other international agencies and commissions.  The
exact  number  of international bodies to which the U.S. belongs,
in fact, no one in the government seems to know."

International treaties and other entanglements are vital  to  The
Plan   because  they  provide  a  clever  mechanism  for  quietly
transferring power from America's legally constituted  state  and
federal governments  to  the global bureaucracy.  In his official
position as Secretary of  State,  John  Foster  Dulles  declared:
(please shudder now!)

"Treaties  make  international  law  and  also they make domestic
law.  Under our Constitution, treaties become the supreme law  of
the land.    They are indeed more supreme than ordinary laws, for
congressional laws are invalid if they  do  not  conform  to  the
Constitution,  whereas treaty laws can override the Constitution.
Treaties, for example, can take powers away from the Congress and
give them to the federal government or to some international body
and they can cut against the  rights  given  the  people  by  the
Constitutional Bill of Rights."

The Founding Fathers never intended this "snag". Thomas Jefferson
wrote in the Manual of Parliamentary Practice: ". . .  surely the
President  and  the  State  cannot  do  by  treaty what the whole
government is interdicted from doing in any way."  So be  it  and
may much luck come drifting your way.

This  has  been  confirmed  by  the  U.S. Supreme Court. In 1953,
Senator John  Bricker  feared  that--because  of  this  dangerous
interpretation (Missouri  vs.    Holland (1920) and again in U.S.
vs.  Pink (1942)--unscrupulous  foreign  powers  could  rob  U.S.
citizens  of  their  constitutional  rights  by seducing American
politicians into cleverly designed treaties and agreements.    So
Bricker  introduced  to  the  Senate  a  Constitutional amendment
providing that NO provision in the U.S.  Constitution,  including
the   Bill   of  Rights,  could  be  canceled  or  overridden  by
international treaty.  The Bricker Amendment FAILED by one  vote.
This was a landmark victory for the Cartel.

What  treaties  do you think Mr. Bush made with Mr. Gorbachev off
Malta within the month?  Oh foolish ones--several, and they  have
been listed  for  you  in published material.  No, you go look it
up!  I shall begin to stop chewing  the  food  I  place  in  your
mouths.

Americans who believe that their rights are irrevocably protected
by the  Constitution  live in delusion.  The late Senator William
Jenner warned:

"The United Nations is  preparing  a  series  of  treaties  which
operate  as  domestic  legislation,  affecting  our  citizens  in
matters on which  our  Constitution  does  not  permit  even  the
federal government  to legislate.  They would abolish our Bill of
Rights and replace it with a body of state-granted privileges and
duties modeled exactly upon the Soviet Constitution."


Topic: TREATIES  TO  CANCEL  THE  'BILL  OF  RIGHTS' - Chap 16


One of the many treaties crafted to cancel the Bill of Rights and
to bring America under jurisdiction of world  government  is  the
U.N.  Genocide Convention. This treaty sat on the back burner for
three decades until ratified by the Senate in 1986.

Preventing mass murder is not the REAL  intent  of  this  treaty,
which  the  late  Senator  Sam  Ervin -- a constitutional expert,
called "intellectually dishonest and deceptive".    The  Genocide
Convention  defines  "genocide"  as  an ORAL OR WRITTEN STATEMENT
which may be construed to cause "mental harm" to an individual or
to a national, ethnic, racial  or  religious  group.    Thus,  it
creates  a crucial foundation for restricting speech/press, since
nearly ANY verbal or  written  statement  could  allegedly  cause
mental harm to SOMEONE.

The  vague language of the Genocide Convention renders the treaty
open to broad interpretation by the World  Court.  In  1946,  the
U.S.  Senate  recognized  the  jurisdiction  of the International
Court of Justice  (World  Court)  except  in  matters  which  are
"within  the  domestic  jurisdiction  of  the  United  States  as
determined by the United States". This reservation, the  Connally
Amendment,  is  all  that  protects  Americans from the arbitrary
decrees  of  foreign-born  World  Court  judges,  whose  personal
ideologies  invariably  reflect  the  Marxist  bias of the United
Nations. The Cartel will eventually repeal the Connally Amendment
so that  the  World  Court  may  effectively  regulate  America's
internal affairs.

The  vague  language  also  renders  the  treaty  open  to  broad
interpretation of any other international tribunal  before  which
an  American  may eventually be brought to stand trial once he is
accused of "intent to  destroy",  "conspiracy",  "incitement"  or
"complicity".

Although  it  sounds  unreal,  the  authors of these books giving
forth simple information, could  someday  be  accused  of  verbal
"genocide"  by  those  who  favor  The  Plan. These ones could be
forced to stand trial, without Constitutional protection,  before
an international  court  or  tribunal.   The prognostications are
based on what has happened to  many  authors  within  the  Soviet
sphere  who have critically examined the Cartel's Soviet machine.
The Genocide Convention will eventually be used by  the  "central
guidance  system"  to  enforce  global  totalitarian  censorship.
Let's see how fast and much you of the citizenry are  willing  to
step out  and  cover  these  ones  by your massive response.  The
probabilities, dear friends, are that most will toss this in  the
garbage  pail  or  turn  in  the  traitors while the masses march
headlong into doom.  You flaunt patriotism---why don't you  stand
and  flaunt  truth  and get rid of the real traitors to this most
beloved of all lands?  You have forfeited your freedom---you  are
locked in an unopenable trap---you must now cut through the steel
jaws.   The  cry of the Phoenix, which you hear now, is the death
rattle of freedom rising from the flames just before the ashes of
Hell bury you.

Two other treaties developed at the United Nations, signed by the
President of the United States (James Carter)  and  now  awaiting
Senate ratification are the:

1.  International  Covenant  on  Economic,  Social  and  Cultural
Rights.

2. International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights.

These two treaties are  legally  binding  on  signatory  nations.
Framed  by  unelected United Nations bureaucrats to delineate the
parameters of world government, these treaties  are  SPECIFICALLY
DESIGNED to repeal Constitutional guarantees, and to override the
Bill of Rights.

These  U.N.  covenants  grant  freedom  of  religion,  freedom of
expression, the right to peaceful assembly,  freedom  to  travel,
etc.,  but  each  right  granted  is  IMMEDIATELY  FOLLOWED  BY A
DISCLAIMER ANNOUNCING THAT EACH MAY BE  RESTRICTED  OR  SUSPENDED
"AS  PROVIDED  BY  LAW"  in  order  to protect national security,
public health and morals.

The treacherous wording of these documents was  inspired  by  the
Soviet   Constitution,   which   grants  citizens  "full  social,
economic, political and personal rights and freedoms"  but  warns
that "enjoyment by citizens of their rights and freedoms must not
be  to  the  detriment of the interests of society or the state".
This phrase is a ticket to a Soviet concentration camp.

The Cartel is rabidly anxious for Senate  ratification  of  these
two U.N.  treaties (will you even notice when it happens?).  This
is undoubtedly why Doug Dillon's Committee on the  Constitutional
System  calls  for  relaxation of Constitutional requirements for
treaty ratification.

Once these U.N. treaties become legally  binding  on  the  United
States,   the  regulation  of  America's  internal  affairs  will
automatically be transferred from  state  and  federal  governing
bodies to the "central guidance system".

Unelected  U.N.  bureaucrats,  far  removed  from  the  electoral
process, will dictate  domestic  policy  and  procedure  for  the
United  States.  Local,  state  and  federal  officials  will  be
compelled to report to world government officials on the measures
adopted and the progress made in observance of  these  covenants.
Further,  the  U.N.  committee  charged with enforcement of these
covenants may NOT include a U.S. national.

The Soviets have signed the  United  Nations  treaties  discussed
above.   Their  totalitarian  interpretation  gives  clues to the
value of these documents for implementing a global police  state.
As The New York Times reported: "The Soviet Union said today that
the  two  international  human  rights covenants that it has just
ratified gave  it  specific  authority  to  limit  the  right  of
immigration,   the  free  flow  of  ideas  and  other  individual
liberties" (Sept. 28, 1973).

Dharma, let us close this segment, chela, for you  need  a  rest.
Please  leave the document as is, without new chapter heading for
I desire to continue with  the  strategies  4,  5  and  6  before
drawing this segment  to  a close.  Thank you.  I shall just move
to stand-by.  HATONN, CLEAR.

1:15 P.M. TO CONTINUE:


STRATEGY 4 (FOURTHLY):MAKE AMERICA A WELFARE STATE


As indicated by Richard Falk, the global governing authority will
supervise the bestial care and feeding of all citizens.  The Plan
requires a human population reduced to the state of  domesticated
animals.   Citizens  must  become  absolutely  dependent upon the
government  for  absolutely   everything:   housing,   retirement
pensions,  child  care,  education,  medical care, mental health,
spiritual guidance, etc.

Once ratified by the Senate,  the  United  Nations  International
Covenant  on  Economic,  Social and Cultural Rights will obligate
the Feds to restructure the economic and social fabric of America
in order to guarantee food, housing, medicine and  employment  to
all  Americans.  This  document  mandates  government  control of
production and distribution  of  food.    It  requires  that  all
schools, public and private, foster world order propaganda, i.e.,
"further the activities of the United Nations".

Seducing  Americans into a cradle-to-grave welfare system through
endless taxpayer-financed assistance programs  has  long  been  a
Cartel priority.    Several  generations  of  Americans have been
strategically educated to believe that government  is  instituted
specifically  to redistribute wealth and that human sustenance is
possible ONLY through bureaucratic largess.

Therefore,  to  the  applause  of  hundreds   of   thousands   of
collectivists  who  staff  government  social  service  agencies,
America is  hurtling  into  socialism  at  an  astonishing  rate.
Already  one  of  every  three  children  in  America  lives in a
household that receives some form of government largess.

The freebies are, however, only a TRANSITIONAL phase.  There will
be no "free ride" in Soviet-America. As the  Soviet  constitution
affirms:  "The  source  of the growth of social wealth and of the
well-being of the people, and of each individual, is  the  labour
of Soviet people."

Because  SOMEONE  has  to  produce the wealth needed to support a
socialist system, The Plan requires  confiscatory  taxation  that
will  eventually,  as  in  European socialist states, channel the
major portion of the earnings of  each  American  worker  to  the
SOCIALIST  STATE. Each socialized American will queue up to await
an  official  determination  as  to  what   percentage   of   his
government-confiscated earnings he is eligible to receive back in
government service.      He   will   not   only   discover   that
non-competitive  government  services  are  grossly  inferior  to
services  once  provided  by  the  private sector, but invariably
discover that what he pays to the socialist state  far  outweighs
what he receives in return.  The difference will involve the huge
administrative  costs  required  to  maintain an all-encompassing
socialist bureaucracy.

State-supervised  labor  contingents  are   also   important   to
America's evolving  socialist  system.   As increasing numbers of
American drones become wards of the Socialist State, and  as  the
number  of remaining producers grows proportionately too small to
support the welfare burden, Soviet Americans will find themselves
regimented to labor under government supervision.  Citizens  will
be  compelled  to  participate  in  mandatory "service programs".
Eventually, even the indigent and the  homeless  will  be  forced
into labor-for-your-food programs.

Cartel   spokesman,   Edward  H.  Carr  explained:  "If  the  new
Declaration of the Rights of Man is  to  include  provisions  for
social  services,  for  maintenance  in childhood, in old age, in
inadequacy or in unemployment, it becomes clear that  no  society
can guarantee the enjoyment of such rights unless it in turn, has
the  right  to  call upon and direct the productive capacities of
the individuals enjoying them."

The Cartel's Newstates constitution mandates a compulsory citizen
draft for national service programs as required by  law.    As  a
first step toward a mandatory citizen draft, a volunteer "Citizen
Corp"  program  has  been  proposed  by the Democratic Leadership
Council. The concept is also being  pushed  by  President  George
Bush.

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union declares: "Communism is a
highly  organized  society of free, socially conscious workers in
which labor for the good of society will become for everybody the
prime, vital requirement."

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights mandates
compulsory labor for prisoners, military personnel  and  citizens
whose work  fulfills "civil obligations".  However, this document
instructs that compulsory duties will NOT be  TERMED  COMPULSORY.
Obviously,  citizens  must  be convinced that COMPULSORY labor is
really VOLUNTARY labor!

STRATEGY 5: ABOLISH PRIVATE OWNERSHIP OF PROPERTY

Richard Falk complains that the American "belief  system",  which
upholds  private  property rights and the right to accumulate and
transmit capital, is an obstruction to global reform.

According to Rexford  G.  Tugwell,  co-author  of  the  Newstates
Constitution, Americans must relinquish property ownership.

The Cartel's tax-exempt Carnegie Corporation of New York funded a
report which concluded many years ago:

"Cumulative  evidence supports the conclusion that, in the United
States as in  other  countries,  the  age  of  individualism  and
laissez faire in economy and government is closing and that a new
age of  collectivism (socialism) is emerging.  It may involve the
limiting or supplanting of private property by public property or
it may entail the preservation of private property, extended  and
distributed among  the  masses.    In  any  event,  the  actually
integrating economy of the present day is  the  forerunner  of  a
consciously  integrated  society  in  which  individual economic
actions and  individual  property  rights  will  be  altered  and
abridged."

Or,  in  the  poignant  words  of  Karl  Marx: "The theory of the
Communists may be summed up in one sentence: ABOLITION OF PRIVATE
PROPERTY."

Lenin's revolutionary thugs seized  private  property  in  Russia
through murderous  violence.   In the United States, however, the
Cartel  is  abolishing  private  property   through   "piecemeal"
socialist revolution.

The  federal government presently owns ONE-THIRD of the land mass
in the United States. This is equal  to  all  land  east  of  the
Mississippi  plus  Texas.  The federal government owns FORTY-NINE
PERCENT of the land in thirteen states west of the border between
Montana and the Dakotas. As a condition for statehood, Alaska was
bludgeoned into  permitting  the  federal  government  to  retain
224,000,000 acres of Alaskan wilderness.

By   the  early  70's,  the  Cartel  had  developed  strategy  to
effectively gain control  of  all  privately-owned  land  in  the
United  States.  Through  EXECUTIVE  ORDER, Cartel stooge Richard
Nixon created ten federal regions (newstates) composed of several
states each.  Federal grant-making agencies were  established  to
administer  revenue-sharing  programs  for each of these regional
units.

In  order  to  qualify  for  federal  funds,  state   and   local
governments   have  complied  with  federally  mandated  tax  and
land-use (zoning) requirements strategically designed to diminish
private control of property.

Robert Weaver,  a  former  administrator  of  Housing  and  Urban
Development,   explained  to  California  legislators:  "Regional
government means absolute federal control over all  property  and
its  development  regardless  of location, anywhere in the United
States,  to   be   administered   on   the   federal   official's
determination.   It  (regional  government) would supersede state
and local laws.  Through this  authority  we  seek  to  recapture
control  of  the  use  of  land, most of which the government has
already given to the people."

The  key  agency  designing  strategies  for  increasing  federal
control  of  private  land  in  America  is the Cartel's Advisory
Commission  on  Intergovernmental  Relations  (ACIR).   ACIR   is
headquartered  at  the  Rockefeller-funded University of Chicago.
Backed by the Brookings Institution (the Cartel's foremost  think
tank  for  socialist  transformation),  ACIR  has  supplied state
governments  with  model  statutes  and  legislative   amendments
related to virtually every facet of state and local government.

Instead  of  challenging  such brazen meddling, state legislators
have consistently rubber-stamped ACIR's  recommended  legislation
in order to qualify for federal revenue-sharing schemes.

The  consequences  are  becoming increasingly obvious as citizens
find themselves ominously  less  able  to  pay  their  burgeoning
property taxes and as each new round of zoning ordinances narrows
personal land-use decisions to an absurdly small circumference.

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 13 <<================


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
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Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 13/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:49:17 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 622



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 13 <<=============================


A  clever Cartel vehicle for TAXING LANDOWNERS off their property
is federal legislation unleashed in the 1960s.  This  legislation
struck  down  state  statutes  which limited the vote on property
assessments to property owners exclusively.  Presently, those who
do not own property may vote to tax property  owners.    This  is
socialist democracy at its finest.

Under  Cartel  influence, zoning ordinances throughout the nation
are becoming increasingly repressive.  Ordinances which  restrict
the  number  of  people  who  can  meet  together  in  a  private
residence, or which  provide  for  neighbors  to  tattle  on  one
another, are building blocks of a police state.

John  Vanderhoof, former governor of Colorado, afforded a glimpse
of the new world order when  he  said:  ".  .  .  the  individual
citizen  will  have  very  little to say about the use of his own
property.  That citizen, whether he be a rancher,  a  farmer,  or
urbanite,  will  be required to submit application for the use of
his property to a local computer.  That local  computer  will  be
tied into  a master computer.  The master computer will then make
the decision as to whether that farmer, rancher,  or  businessman
in the  city  can  use  the  property  as  desired."   Well, dear
ones---is it not already abundantly so?

The gradual abolition of private property in  the  U.S.  portends
grave  ramifications  for  all Americans. Samuel Adams wrote that
property must be secured or liberty cannot exist.  James  Madison
declared  that  where an excess of power prevails, property is in
jeopardy.

John Locke, whose brilliant ideas on civil liberties  formed  the
basis  for  constitutional  theory,  noted  that the right to own
property and control its use  is  IRREVOCABLY  CONNECTED  to  the
protection  of  both  LIBERTY  and LIFE itself, which is included
under the general  term  "property".  The  history  of  Communist
tyranny has certainly proven him correct.

Thus, it is extremely significant that the International Covenant
on  Economic,  Social  and  Cultural Rights and the International
Covenant on Civil and  Political  Rights--documents  prepared  by
unelected  U.N.  bureaucrats to outline the privileges and duties
of global citizens--SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE any mention of the right
of individuals to own property.

Topic: 6: USHER IN THE "AGE OF CAESAR" - Chap 16


Yet another vehicle for drawing America into world order  tyranny
is  the  EXECUTIVE  ORDER. Since 1916, U.S. presidents (and their
Cartel manipulators)  have  issued  THIRTEEN  THOUSAND  executive
orders.   These  dictums  are neither authorized by Congress, nor
reviewed by the federal judiciary.  A two-thirds vote of Congress
is required to overturn them and consequently, even those  orders
which are grossly outdated are almost NEVER overturned.  Further,
the President does not even need to consult his "Cabinet"--he can
act solely on recommendations of advisors and/or himself.

The   constitutional   validity  of  executive  orders  has  been
questioned many times, but a ruling on the  extent  or  limit  to
which  they  may  be used has never been determined by either the
courts or by Congress.

Executive orders, which are placed in the Federal Register, allow
non-elected  executive  bureaucrats  to   completely   circumvent
Congress in  order  to create administrative law.  Administrative
law resulting from executive order is written and administered by
federal regulatory agencies which are mini-dictatorships in their
own right.  As the Committee on the Constitutional  System  notes
with   approbation,   these   agencies   combine  administrative,
legislative and ajudicatory powers in a single  government  body.
This  is  an  example  of ultra-centralization of power which the
Founding Fathers warned against.

Executive orders are vital to The Plan because the  President  of
the  United  States  (or  his  appointed  agents) may use them to
enforce agreements which HE ALONE  may  have  made  with  another
government or  with  an  international  organization.    Does  it
concern you what might have already been going on with China, not
to even mention Russia?  As Senator Jenner  warned  nearly  forty
years ago:

"The  doctrine  that the President could make personal agreements
was  extended  to  the  doctrine  that  agreements  made  by  any
authorized  member  of the government bureaucracy, in the name of
the  President,  had  the  same  effect  as  those  made  by  the
President.  Mr.  Dulles tells us that 10,000 executive agreements
have been made pursuant to NATO ALONE."

Among the most horrendous of the Cartel's  executive  orders  are
those which authorize Soviet-style dictatorship in the event of a
national crisis.   There are a staggering 470 special statutes in
the U.S. Code which can be invoked  by  the  President  during  a
national emergency.    These  statutes  were described by Senator
Mathias of  Maryland  who  testified  before  a  House  Judiciary
subcommittee in 1975:

"These  hundreds  of statutes clothe the President with virtually
unlimited powers with which he can affect the lives  of  American
citizens in  a host of all-encompassing ways.  This vast range of
powers, taken together, confers enough authority on the President
to rule the country without reference  to  normal  constitutional
processes.

"Under  the  authority  delegated  by the statutes, the President
may:  seize  property;  organize  and  control   the   means   of
production;  seize  commodities;  assign  military forces abroad;
institute martial law; seize and control all  transportation  and
communication;  regulate  the  operation  of private enterprises;
restrict travel; and in a plethora of  particular  ways,  control
the lives of all American citizens."

And,  Mr.  Bush has just boldly told you he plans to use them all
and you can take it and shove it!

The most abhorrent of all such emergency  statutes  is  Executive
Order Number 11921 issued in 1976. It authorizes the executive to
exercise   every   conceivable   dictatorial  power,  even  TOTAL
CENSORSHIP.  Says  Dr.  Gary  North,  author  of  GOVERNMENT   BY
EMERGENCY:

"How bad   is   this   Executive   Order?      Very,   very  bad.
Mindbogglingly bad.  Anyone who hasn't read anything about  these
emergency orders  has  a  rude  awakening  ahead.  The day of the
Caesar is already on the statute books.  It only awaits a set  of
circumstances, including a risk-oriented President, to inaugurate
that day.  the public, the public's representatives, and even the
President  have  only the faintest glimmer of the massive pile of
secret legislation ready to be imposed on this nation in the name
of national emergency.  It is a frightful legacy."

WELL, YOU JUST WITNESSED IT IN  ACTION--PANAMA!    MR.  BUSH  WAS
FLEXING  HIS MUSCLES AND TESTING THE WATER AS TO HOW FAR HE COULD
SWIM--HE FOUND HE CAN SWIM ALL OVER YOU THE PEOPLE!

Pre-manufactured crisis  and  emergency  are  important  building
blocks of world  order.  Cartel rhetoric proves the point.  Those
planning   the   New   World   Order   speak    continually    of
CRISIS--population  crisis,  environmental crisis, social crisis,
economic crisis, constitutional crisis, etc.  Crisis  provides  a
splendid rationale   for   "crisis  management".    For  example,
professional  agitators  who  continually  scream   "racism"   or
"sexism"  have  provided  the momentum for repressive legislation
which is gradually augmenting dictatorship  by  special  interest
groups  dedicated  to The Plan. Crisis engenders more bureaucracy
and an endless expansion of political power.  And POWER  is  just
another name for the Socialist New World rder.

Do  you  actually  think George Bush gives a hoot in a hollow log
about abortion?  It is a distractor; look how hard I try  is  the
theme---a  nice  man like me who wouldn't sacrifice even the seed
of life and blah, blah, blah!!!

Jimmy  Carter  was  catapulted  into  the   presidency   by   the
Rockefeller machine.    Carter  created, through executive order,
the  Federal  Emergency  Management  Agency  (FEMA).  Rockefeller
clone:  Zbigniew, "Marxism-supplied-the-best-available-insight-in
o-contemporary-reality"  Brzezinski  assisted   with   the   FEMA
project.   AND YOU ALL SAW HOW WELL AND EFFICIENTLY IT FUNCTIONED
IN THE OCTOBER SAN FRANCISCO EARTHQUAKE---NEED I SAY MORE!

FEMA holds a reign on every department of  the  U.S.  government.
It  provides  the bureaucratic apparatus through which the Cartel
believes it can hollow out the federal  government  to  rule  the
nation during  a  real  or  contrived  national  crisis.   During
national emergency, FEMA officials will carry out the  edicts  of
the  all-powerful executive, apparently without interference from
Congress, the courts or even the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

When congressional investigators try to probe the designs of  the
National  Security Council-FEMA clique, they are told, as Senator
Jack Brooks (D-Texas) was told at the Oliver North hearings, that
these  subjects  are  "classified".   Hiding   behind   "national
security",  the  Cartel  successfully  keeps  its  power  designs
shrouded from the public eye.

However, in 1986, Douglas Dillon betrayed Cartel strategy when he
confided to his fellow planners at a meeting of the Committee  on
the  Constitutional  System  that  drastic  changes  in America's
constitutional system can be made ONLY AFTER A  PERIOD  OF  GREAT
CRISIS.  He  declared  that sufficient discussion must be held in
advance of this upheaval.

America's present predicament was aptly described by  that  great
statesman,  Daniel  Webster,  when  he  said last century: "It is
hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to  guard
the people  against the danger of good intentions.  There are men
of all ages who mean to govern well, but  they  mean  to  govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."


Topic: WHERE DO YOU STAND? - Chap 16



WHO  WILL  STAND  AGAINST  THE  TYRANNY  OF  THE NEW WORLD ORDER?
CERTAINLY NOT THE GROSSLY UNINFORMED MASSES!

A RANDOM SURVEY OF AMERICAN ADULTS WAS CONDUCTED IN 1986  BY  THE
HEARST  CORPORATION AND IT REVEALED THAT FIFTY-NINE PERCENT (59%)
OF  THOSE  SURVEYED  DID  NOT  KNOW  WHAT  THE  BILL  OF   RIGHTS
IS---ALMOST  HALF  OF  THOSE SURVEYED BELIEVED THAT THE PRESIDENT
HAS THE RIGHT TO SUSPEND THE CONSTITUTION!!!   DO  YOU  HAVE  ANY
IDEA WHAT  THAT  MEANS?  IT MEANS THE JOB IS ALREADY HALF DONE BY
THE CARTEL.

OH, MOAN AND WAIL, YE OF BLINDNESS, FOR TOO SOON THE GRIM  REAPER
IS AT THY DOOR!

Let us bring this portion to a stop at this point.  I do not like
chapters  of such length that readers will not stop to digest the
material---no matter how much indigestion this material may  give
the belly---I SUGGEST YOU EAT IT ALL!

TO  STAND-BY  UNTIL YOU CAN GET THE PRINTER SET. HATONN -- OUT TO
AWAIT YOUR SUMMONS THAT WE MIGHT CONTINUE. SALU.


Topic: CHAPTER 17

From: REC #2 HATONN

Date: SUNDAY, DECEMBER 24, 1989 3:45 P.M. YEAR 3, DAY 130


Topic: INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ORDER - Chap 17


You will find that a unified world economic system is  vital  for
the victory  of  international  socialism.   Stalin declared that
long ago--today the Soviets say:  "In  a  socialist  society  the
national or global economy is an integral organism, directed by a
single will."

Thus,  a top Cartel priority is continued development of a single
global economic  system  which  can  facilitate  socialist  world
order.   The economic component of The Plan is advancing rapidly.
As Richard Falk celebrates in IN A STUDY OF  FUTURE  WORLDS,  the
entire world economy will be an "integrated whole" in the 1990's.

The  United  Nations provides the framework for a global monetary
system which links nations of the world with  the  Cartel's  most
powerful  global financial institutions including the World Bank,
the International Monetary Fund, the General Agreement on Tariffs
and Trade (GATT), and the Organization for  Economic  Cooperation
and   Development   (OECD).  Please,  I  urge  you  ones  to  get
SPACE-GATE,  SPIRAL  TO  ECONOMIC  DISASTER,  and  PRIVACY  IN  A
FISHBOWL.

Business  Week has described the Cartel's supranational financial
network as a "vast, integrated global money and  capital  system,
billions of Eurodollars, Euromarks and other stateless currencies
hurtling around the world 24 hours a day."

This   system   will   soon   evolve   into   a  global  monetary
dictatorship.  Cartel theoretician, Richard Cooper, outlined  the
future  when he said: "I suggest a radical alternative scheme for
the next century: The creation of a common currency  for  all  of
the industrial  democracies.    But a single currency is possible
only if there is in effect a single monetary policy, and a single
authority  issuing  the  currency  and  directing  the   monetary
policy.  How  can  independent states accomplish that?  They need
to  turnover  the  determination  of   monetary   policy   to   a
supranational body."

Cartel  master  planners call the evolving global monetary system
the NEW INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC  ORDER  (NIEO)  in  honor  of  the
United  Nations'  Declaration  of  the  Establishment  of the New
Economic Order. This declaration, adopted  by  the  U.N.  General
Assembly  in l974, calls for government seizure (nationalization)
of private business.  It also mandates construction of a gigantic
global welfare system to transfer wealth from  producing  nations
to  "poor"  nations,  i.e.,  those  with  systems  so  corrupt or
inefficient that  they  cannot  produce  for  themselves.     One
prominent world order propagandist explains:

"The NIEO document calls for dramatic and painful change--painful
to  those  countries,  and  companies, who are profiting from the
present system.  These reforms could mean that  citizens  of  the
wealthy countries will have to pay more for imported products, as
they have  for  oil.  It could mean that manufacturing employment
would rise in the  poor  countries  while  falling  in  the  rich
countries.   In  other  words,  it  could mean more inflation and
fewer jobs in countries like the United States."

Couched in this phony altruism is the Cartel's  master  plan  for
expanding  multinational corporate profits by charging the "rich"
nations more for imported products while transferring industry to
the "poor" nations where cheap labor can be exploited.

Planners at the World Order Models Project  naturally  propose  a
Marxist   system  of  global  wealth  redistribution  which  will
"equalize" the economic status of  most  global  citizens.    And
Richard  Gardner  vociferates:  "In  the  next several years, the
United States  and  the  other  industrial  countries,  in  their
enlightened  self-interest,  should commit themselves to a number
of measures to assist the economic development of the  developing
countries--more   multilateral   aid,   more  market  access  for
developing countries' exports, more  transfer  of  technology,  a
world food reserve...."

Ronald Reagan's 1988 call for U.S. aid to rebuild Afhganistan for
the  Soviet  puppet government there epitomizes the Cartel's NIEO
designs.  America's compulsory march into feudal poverty  as  her
taxpayers  are  bled-dry  to  support  Third  World dictators was
applauded by a 1984 campaign brochure released by Walter  Mondale
and Geraldine Ferraro. It stated:

"A  New  International  Economic  Order must be established which
will fundamentally change the distribution and  nature  of  world
production.   We  recognize that this will mean some sacrifice by
the rich, but we believe that we cannot continue to use  economic
growth  to  increase  consumption  and  our  material standard of
living.  Instead, we must work for a  new  lifestyle  which  will
allow  resources  to  be  transferred  and returned to the poorer
nations."

Calling for "sacrifice by the rich" is Cartel jargon for imposing
increasingly   confiscatory    taxation--not    on    millionaire
collectivists   like  Walter  Mondale,  Doug  Dillon  and  Armand
Hammer--but on the bourgeoisie: MIDDLE-CLASS  AMERICA.  America's
nomenklatura will retain its unfathomable wealth in the socialist
new world  order.    But  confiscation of wealth earned by Middle
America  is  vital  for  bringing  all  nations  under  a  global
socialist system.

Lenin explained:

"The  more backward the country--the more difficult it is for her
to  pass  from  the  old  capitalist   relations   to   socialist
relations."

Stalin pontificated:

"It  is essential that the triumphant proletariat of the advanced
countries should render aid,  real  and  prolonged  aid,  to  the
toiling  masses of the backward nationalists, that it should help
them to rise to a higher state of development  and  to  catch  up
with the  more  advanced  nationalities.    Unless  such  aid  is
forth-coming, it will be impossible to bring about  the  peaceful
coexistence  and  fraternal  collaboration  of the toilers of the
various nations and peoples within a single world economic system
that are so essential for the final triumph of socialism."

WOMP planners call for  a  global  taxing  authority  which  will
harness   all   global  citizens  to  the  great  yoke  of  world
government.  Such a system is in the works.  Americans, who  have
contributed untold billions of tax dollars to the United Nations,
are  already  saddled  with a national debt in the TRILLIONS. Yet
this burden is only the FIRST FRUITS of The Plan.


Topic: THE BEAST! - Chap 17


Dr. Carroll Quigley demonstrated in TRAGEDY  AND  HOPE  that  the
Cartel's  dynastic  families have controlled the central banks of
the world for generations.  Possibly the most fascinating  aspect
of   the   Cartel's  evolving  global  economic  systems  is  the
international network of computer and  telecommunication  centers
which  link  central  banks  of  the  world  to  the  Society for
Worldwide Interbanks  Financial  Transactions  (SWIFT)  based  in
Belgium.  SWIFT's  financial  wizards  are  rapidly  assembling a
global financial order based on credit  cards,  electronic  funds
transfer and  point  of  sale computer terminals.  This system is
designed to eliminate most personal cash transactions by the year
2000.

A global cashless monetary system will be extremely  valuable  to
the  Cartel  because it will permit the "central guidance system"
to collect reliable and up-to-date personal information  on  each
global citizen.  Detailed computer transaction sheets will enable
world  order  surveillance  specialists to monitor the net worth,
tax  liability,  personal   tastes,   political   and   religious
affiliation and even the whereabouts of each global citizen.

The  Cartel's  capacity  to process and store information of this
kind is astounding!  In the 1970s, a Canadian computer  scientist
stunned  the  world  when  he  said  of  the three-story computer
(dubbed the "beast") in Brussels, Belgium:

"You and I are tied into this computer by one or more  keys:  our
social   security   number,   our  driver's  license,  our  birth
certificate, our passport number, and whatever  credit  cards  we
use.   Every move you have made, and every penny you have paid to
Internal Revenue each year is all on record."

NOW I REMIND YOU GOOD BUDDIES--THE  FINAL  LINK  OF  THE  MASSIVE
(STAR  WARS)  SATELLITE SYSTEM WILL BE TOTALLY OPERATIONAL WITHIN
TWO WEEKS. THAT WAS WHAT SDI WAS  ALL  ABOUT  AND  BILLIONS  UPON
BILLIONS  OF  DOLLARS  HAVE  BEEN  DIVERTED  FROM  PROJECTS  LIKE
STEALTH, ETC. YOU SLEPT WHILE THEY SET THE TRAP.

Since the above information came to light, the Cartel's  "beast",
comprising  the  largest  computer  complex in the world, has now
expanded to  Luxembourg.  This  gigantic  apparatus,  capable  of
numbering every person on earth, ties in with the European Common
Market  (CLUE, CHELAS), which is rapidly amalgamating the various
trade  and  monetary  systems  of  Western  European  nations  in
preparation for the larger global unification project.

To   make   the  cashless  global  monetary  system  a  foolproof
surveillance vehicle, the Cartel must ultimately:

l.  Assign every global citizen a personal identification  number
so  that  each  financial  transaction  recorded  by  the central
computer can be linked to an individual by his number.

2. Imprint his personal identification number  in  the  flesh  of
each   citizen--with  either  a  microchip  implant  or  a  laser
tattoo--so that I.D. cannot be lost, stolen or faked.

The nationally disseminated Senior Scholastic magazine  explained
to American students the Cartel's ultimate design:

"All  buying and selling in the program will be done by computer.
No currency, no change, no checks.  In the program, people  would
receive  a  number  that had been assigned them tattooed in their
wrist or forehead.  The number is put on  by  a  laser  beam  and
cannot be  felt.    The  number  in the body is not seen with the
naked eye and is as permanent as your fingerprints.  All items of
consumer goods will be marked with a computer mark.  The computer
outlet in the store which picks up the  number  in  the  person's
body  and  automatically  totals the price and deducts the amount
from the person's Special Drawing Rights account."

Topic: SIX-SIX-SIX------6-6-6 - Chap 17


For some unexplained reason, numerous components of the  Cartel's
supranational  economic  system  consistently  employ patterns of
TRIPLE SIXES. An example is the Universal Product Code, developed
by Corporate America. This code is  the  square  of  numbers  and
symbols  which  a  clerk  passes  across a laser scanner when you
purchase a consumer item.

Researcher  Dr.   Mary   Relfe   spent   thousands   of   dollars
investigating the origin and development of the Universal Product
Code.  She  discovered  that,  whatever  the  code  design, it is
INVARIABLY built upon a framework of THREE code  bars  presenting
the  number  SIX.  She  also  found  that  the three six-bars are
generally the  ONLY  bars  in  the  code  NOT  assigned  cardinal
numbers.  This suggests that the originators of the code may wish
to obscure the 6-6-6 basis of the universal coding system.

The  Cartel  may  be  a  bit paranoid that citizens might somehow
connect its 6-6-6 system with the global  dictatorship  described
in  the Bible. Slated to arise shortly before the return of Jesus
the Christ, this dictatorship is described by John the  Revelator
as   a   BEAST.   John   said   the  BEAST  would  be  enormously
anti-Christian and that it would  KILL  citizens  who  refuse  to
cooperate with, i.e., "worship" the system.  John prophesied:

"And  he  causeth  all, both small and great, rich and poor, free
and bond, to receive the mark in their right hand,  or  in  their
foreheads:

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or
the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

"Here is  wisdom.    Let  him  that hath under-standing count the
number of the beast: for it is the  number  of  a  man;  and  his
number is Six hundred threescore and six."

The  Cartel's central apparatus for its global monetary system is
the World Bank, an agency for the United  Nations.  By  some  odd
coincidence, the World Bank code number is:

The  Bible bears witness that the global monetary dictatorship of
the BEAST will ultimately become a nightmare for EVERYONE because
it is sponsored by SATAN  himself!    Therefore,  Christians  are
ABSOLUTELY  FORBIDDEN  to  accept  in their flesh the Mark of the
BEAST. John warned:

". . . If any man worship the beast and his  image,  and  receive
his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of
the  wine  of  the  wrath  of  God,  which is poured out with-out
mixture into the cup of his indignation.  . ."

Well, it is going to take some clever maneuvering indeed for  you
are  already  listed  in the system--so be it, we shall just tred
along on the eggshells as long as we can.

New IRS requirements are augmenting the assignation of  a  social
security  number  to  nearly  everyone in the United States, even
tiny babes.  This  is  significant  because  a  citizen's  social
security  identification  number  is  the  NUMBER OF HIS NAME. An
American can conduct almost no important  financial  transactions
without reporting the number of his name.  Unless he presents his
social security number, an American cannot:

l.  Work   for  mainstream  employers.    2.  Receive  government
benefits.  3. File an income tax return.  4. Obtain insurance  or
get a bank loan.

IS ANY  OF  THIS  RINGING  IN YOUR HEAD?  ARE YOU PICKING UP SOME
CLUES?  DO  YOU  BEGIN  TO  SEE  HOW  A  CORPORATION  OF  UNKNOWN
OWNERSHIP IN NEVADA CAN HELP YOU?  DEAR ONES, THE OPTIONS WILL BE
SO FEW---FEW INDEED.

The  technology for both laser tattooing and microchip implanting
is now well-advanced.  When the global monetary system  makes  it
MANDATORY  for  every  citizen  to  have  the  number of his name
imprinted into his flesh, he WILL COMPLY or he will be COMPLETELY
CUT-OFF. He will  have  to  barter  with  like-minded  people  to
survive in meager circumstances.  In most cases, he will probably
forfeit his job and/or retirement benefits.  If he is in debt, he
will likely lose his home or other tangible assets.  Such will be
the power of the BEAST in his zenith.

Yet, those who allow themselves to be "branded" by the BEAST will
also suffer  horribly.    There  will  apparently be some type of
health risk, possibly CONNECTED TO LASER RADIATION USED  TO  SCAN
THE NUMBER IN THE FLESH.

John said:

".  .  .  and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men
which had the mark of the beast, and upon them  which  worshipped
his image."  Could this mean "logo"?

The  Bible  declares  that those who KNOWINGLY accept the mark of
the BEAST  are  symbolically  worshipping  Satan  and  his  PLAN.
Therefore, these  people will suffer spiritually.  John described
their terrible reward: "And the smoke of their torment  ascendeth
up  of  ever  and  ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who
worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark
of his name."

Because The Plan is unleashing rapid, radical change in  America,
it  would  be  advisable  for  you,  dear reader, if you have not
already done so, to obtain a copy of the Bible and study the Book
of Revelations, Chapters 1-22. The time is  speedily  approaching
when  you  will necessarily make choices that will greatly impact
your future, both in this life and the next.    Before  you  make
decisions  of  such  magnitude,  why not use the Sacred Record to
examine, at close range, the origin and motives of the BEAST?

Dharma, let us bring this to a close for this  segment.    I  see
that you  are  most  fatigued  from  such a long day.  If you are
fresh enough to work later this night, we shall  attempt  it,  if
not,  then  take  your rest on this your Christmas Eve. The glory
shall be unto you ones, chelas, who labor long  in  the  Father's
vineyards.

In love  and deepest appreciation, I move to stand-by.  I am ever
in thy service.

SALU, SALU, SALU

HATONN TO CLEAR FREQUENCY, PLEASE.


Topic: CHAPTER 18

From: REC #1 HATONN

Date: MONDAY, DECEMBER 25, 1989 6:00 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 131

Topic: MERRY  CHRISTMAS  AND  HAPPY  NEWTON  DAY! - Chap 18


On this early Christmas morning, I come to sit  with  you  for  a
while,  Dharma. I see the sadness in your heart, the heaviness --
the acknowledgment that things are no easier  nor  abundant  than
that of  last  year  and the year before.  No, precious ones, the
world is not better this season--it is far worse than in  all  of
history.   Bits  of  colored  paper,  Christmas  trees and turkey
dinners will not make of it better.  We are doing here that which
will make it better.  Aho!    Much  propaganda  is  strewn  about
during  the  Holy Seasons that no one notices that which is going
on.  Your military leaders say they "ran Noriega to the  ground";
they ran  him  nowhere.    This  invasion  of  Panama has run the
peoples to the ground; they have no food,  their  businesses  are
destroyed, people  killed  and  yet  the lie abounds.  One act of
terrorism does not diminish the doubling of terrorism.

That police force shall overrun your homes  if  you  do  not  act
before the  death  knell rings throughout your homeland.  It is a
saddened world indeed.

That which will happen now in  those  beloved  places  that  have
stood  and  fought  and  died for freedom, is that they shall now
fall prey to the BEAST and the Cartel just as planned.  They will
find they must "borrow" and accept aid for they  cannot  function
without assistance---they will simply now sell their countries to
the mongrels.   So  be it.  It is headed for your local doorsteps
wherever you abide in this world.

There are many ones this day who have set aside  the  festivities
to  finish  our work in a timely manner--you only "feel" isolated
and alone.  You must do  these  things  for  the  wondrous  peace
within  for  few of your fellowmen shall give appreciation to you
ones who carry of the banner--it is the way of the journey.

There is not reverence unto me this day in your masses--it  is  a
most Holy day for material oriented Satan--they even dub his name
Santa--how sad  for mankind.  So be it, chela, let us move onward
for every day is most precious indeed.  I give the benediction of
peace unto you ones of truth and rest in the  promise  that  your
works will be blessed.  The King of Darkness reigns this day; not
the Prince of Light---you were told it would be thusly brought to
bear.  Do not dismay for we have much to do.

I AM SANANDA OF GOD, THE CAPTAIN OF THIS SHIP--YOU SHALL BE GIVEN
THE WAY. ADONAI

====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 14 <<================


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 14/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:50:14 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 640



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 14 <<=============================


* * *

Hatonn  present in love and truth, chela, that we may do our work
in a timely manner.  Walk in light this day.  Hold the beauty  of
the  day  which  brings  man  a  bit  closer  together within the
heart-place, close to your  own  for  you  must  not  be  in  the
forgetting of  that  which  we  are here to do.  THE WORD MUST GO
FORTH AND THEN MAN MUST DECIDE OF THAT WHICH HE WILL DO WITH IT.


Topic: THE  GLOBAL  POLICE  FORCE - Chap 18


Oh yes, it is coming and it  is  coming  down  hard--you  already
taste  of it in the judicial system which is corrupt and evil, in
the IRS which is corrupt and evil and  even  in  your  local  law
enforcers  who  are chosen for their intent of control and power.
Of course there are good men among the groups, but oh, chelas, so
few in these days of preparation for the big changes.  There  can
be  no  wondrously  warm and gentle men in the forces which shall
carry out the orders of the elite.

Did you not see the children  in  the  military  circumstance  in
Panama--they  are  but  youngsters  who  do  the  bidding  of the
hardened and evil oriented directors.  Did you see  Mr.  Bush  or
Mr. Cheney  in the fray?  Nay, they sat and gave little tokens of
"how fair and just was your son's death" to the  ones  who  would
never overcome  the  loss  of a beloved lifestream.  The generals
sit in their air-conditioned rooms and direct the  death  marches
and citizens back at home pronounce opinions of nonsense.  WAR IS
A  STUPID  PLOY  OF  EVIL---BUT  YOU  HAVE  BILLIONS OF WAR TOYS,
THEREFORE, YOU HAVE TO USE THEM ON SOMETHING---DO YOU NOT?  SO BE
IT.

Cartel spokesmen complain that a weakness of the  United  Nations
has  been  its  lack  of  ENFORCEMENT  ACTION  against "aggressor
nations".  On  cinching  up  the  enforcement  authority  of  the
Cartel's  global  bureaucracy, Richard Gardner says: "Finally, we
will need to find better ways  of  enforcing  the  rules,  as  by
multilateral    action   that   denies   benefits   and   applies
punishments."

Military force is needed to punish nations who do not conform  to
world law,  as  promulgated  by the world government.  Therefore,
according to Richard Falk, the  creation  of  an  unchallengeable
global police  authority  is a "first and central priority".  The
name of the game is DOMINATION!

He says: "Again, disarmament can  proceed  successfully  only  if
accompanied  by  centralization  of the power/authority structure
that dominates the newly-disarmed units (nations)."

In 1961, the U.S. State Department, operating  under  iron-fisted
control  of  Cartel  agents,  issued State Department Publication
7277. This document explains  the  master  plan  for  creating  a
global  police  force  that will "dominate" all disarmed nations,
including the United States. It reads in part:

"Set forth as the objectives of a program of general and complete
disarmament in a peaceful world:

"The disbanding of all national armed forces and the  prohibition
of their re-establishment in any form whatsoever other than those
required  to preserve internal order and for contributions to the
United  Nation's  peace  force;  the  elimination  from  national
arsenals   of  all  armaments,  including  all  weapons  of  mass
destruction and the means for their delivery,  other  than  those
required  for  a  United  Nations peace force and for maintaining
internal order.

"The establishment and effective operation  of  an  international
disarmament  organization  within  the  framework  of  the United
Nations to insure compliance with all disarmament obligations.

"And, no state would have  a  military  power  to  challenge  the
progressively strengthened U.N. peace force."

John  F.  Kennedy  was groomed for his presidency at the Cartel's
Fabian  socialist  London  School  of  Economic   and   Political
Science.   Kennedy submitted to a disarmament committee in Geneva
a treaty called Blueprint for the Peace Race. The  key  provision
of  this  formal  treaty  is  the  creation  of  a United Nations
"peacekeeping" force so powerful that no nation  could  defy  its
dictates.  This proposal is still pending.

The  United  Nations  already  has the power to police the world.
All nations which have signed the U.N. Charter agree to:

1. Permit the U.N.  Security  Council  to  deploy  U.N.  military
forces  against a perceived enemy by air, sea, or land "as may be
necessary  to  maintain  or  restore  international   peace   and
security" (U.N. Charter, Chapter 7, Article 42).

2.  Provide  the U.N. "every assistance" for its military actions
and refrain from giving assistance to a nation against which  the
U.N.  is taking "preventive or enforcement action" (U.N. Charter,
Chapter 1, Article 2).

3.  Make  available  to  the  Security  Council:  armed   forces,
assistance  and facilities, including rights of passage, and make
"immediately  available  national   air-force   contingents   for
combined international enforcement action" (U.N. Charter, Chapter
7, Article 45).

Thus,  in  the  name of PEACE, the United Nations Charter creates
and empowers a  GLOBAL  AGGRESSOR  with  authority  to  wage  war
against individual  nations.    As articulated by J. Reuben Clark
Jr., who served as U.S. Undersecretary of State:

"The Charter will not certainly end war.   In  the  first  place,
there  is  no  provision  in the Charter itself that contemplates
ending war.  It is true that the Charter provides  for  force  to
bring peace, but such use of force is in itself war.  The Charter
is a war document, not a peace document."


Topic: FURTHER,  AMERICANS  MUST  UNDERSTAND  THAT - Chap 18


1.  ALTHOUGH  THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL DECIDES WHETHER OR NOT TO
TAKE ENFORCEMENT ACTION, THE ACTUAL CONTROL AND COMMAND  OF  U.N.
TROOPS  BELONGS  TO THE UNDERSECRETARY-GENERAL FOR THE DEPARTMENT
OF POLITICAL AND SECURITY COUNCIL AFFAIRS.

2. THE UNDERSECRETARY-GENERAL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF POLITICAL AND
SECURITY COUNCIL AFFAIRS HAS ALWAYS BEEN--AND WILL IN THE  FUTURE
ALWAYS  BE--APPOINTED BY THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE SOVIET UNION.
THIS IS PER  AN  AGREEMENT  BETWEEN  U.S.  AND  SOVIET  DELEGATES
ATTENDING  THE  FIRST  MEETING  OF  THE  U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN
LONDON IN 1945.

Right now, the U.N. Undersecretary-General for the Department  of
Political  and Security Council Affairs is Soviet official Vasily
S. Safronchuk. Safronchuk is NUMBER ONE authority  in  charge  of
all U.N. military personnel, "peacekeeping" missions, disarmament
and atomic energy matters.

Once  the  Cartel  completes  its  disarmament plan, all disarmed
nations of the world will be  policed  by  the  Soviet  Communist
Party working through the United Nations as a front.


Topic: UNDERSTAND  THE  DOMINATORS - Chap 18


You   can   project  the  fate  of  all  nations---slated  to  be
"dominated"  by  the  Soviet-operated  world  police   force---by
looking at what the United Nations Security Council did to Africa
in the early Sixties. At that time, the Belgian Congo (now Zaire)
was  under  the  brutal  control  of  Soviet proxy and terrorist,
Patrice Lumumba. Lumumba  had  issued  a  directive  calling  for
imprisonment and torture of those who resisted his dictatorship.

Anti-communist  leader  Moise  Tshombe,  backed  by a large army,
organized the  province  of  Katanga  to  secede  from  Lumumba's
terrorist state.    Tshombe  declared  that under his leadership,
Katanga  would  enjoy  a  Western-style   government   based   on
principles  drawn  from  the  U.S.  Constitution. Tshombe greatly
admired the U.S. Constitution.

By resolution of the U.N. Security  Council,  thousands  of  U.N.
troops  under  command  of  Soviet official, Georgy Arkadev, were
transported by U.S. Air Force planes to peaceful little  Katanga.
Their  mission  was  to  help the Marxist terrorist Lumumba put a
bloody end to Tshombe's ideas of self-determination.

Lumumba's troops, backed by U.N. forces, swarmed through  Katanga
on a  rampage of rape and murder and cannibalism.  So savage were
their acts against civilians, including women and children,  that
one    journalist,    an    eyewitness,    called    them   "wild
barbarians---determined  to  annihilate  the  last   bastion   of
civilization that remains in Katanga".

Forty-six medical doctors, observing hideous massacres, sent this
urgent  message  to  J.F. Kennedy and the Pope: "SOS TO THE MORAL
CONSCIENCE OF THE WORLD--STOP--IMPLORE YOU TO INTERVENE WITH  ALL
YOUR AUTHORITY TO STOP THE TERRORIST BOMBARDMENT OF HOSPITALS AND
CIVILIAN  POPULATIONS  BY  UNO---ON  OUR  HONOR  AS PHYSICIANS WE
DECLARE AS LIES THE DENIALS OF UNO SECRETARY GENERAL.  (The  U.N.
secretary-general was Leninist, U. Thant.)

World renowned humanitarian, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, also demanded
that  U.N. troops be withdrawn from Katanga. He declared that the
mission of the United Nations should NOT be to make war.  A  U.S.
senator,  present  in  the  Congo  during  U.N. operations there,
testified before the Senate that the United Nations  had  brought
"chaos and bloodshed" to the Congo.

But  mass  genocide  has always been part of The Plan. The Cartel
cannot consolidate  its  socialist  world  order  if  independent
leaders establish  little  niches  of freedom.  Thus, U.N. forces
annihilated Tshombe's liberation movement and brought  the  Congo
under  absolute  control  of Lumumba's Marxist successor, Cyrille
Adoula. His dictatorship was called "peace".

The United Nations still operates exclusively in the interests of
the Marxist agenda.  Thus, in 1988,  Gorbachev  called  for  U.N.
intervention  in  Afghanistan. Watch for an accelerating increase
in deployment of U.N. forces  to  trouble  spots  throughout  the
world.  Third World dictators will call for U.N. assistance.  The
Soviets will "acquiesce" to U.N. "peacekeeping" arrangements like
that  in  the  works  for  Marxist  Angola  where  the  U.N. will
undoubtedly help annihilate anti-communist forces there.

While the dupes of  the  West  are  told  that  U.N.  troops  are
preventing  global  conflagration,  nation  after  nation will be
sucked into the new world order  by  Vasily  Safronchuk  and  his
Kremlin bosses.    Consider  the  1988 agreement--arranged by the
U.S. State Department and signed  by  the  Marxist  dictators  of
Angola  and Cuba--under which the African nation of Namibia is to
be brought to totalitarian "independence". Under this  agreement,
7,500   U.N.  troops  and  1,500  world  order  bureaucrats  will
supervise the withdrawal from Namibia of  South  African  troops,
the  disarmament  of Namibian territorial forces and the transfer
from  Marxist  Angola  to   Namibia   of   9,000   Soviet-backed,
Cuban-trained  SWAPO  guerrillas,  renowned  for  their terrorist
atrocities against civilians.

The  radical   Marxist   SWAPO   (South-West   African   People's
Organization)   is   recognized   as   "the  sole  and  authentic
representative of Namibia" by the United  Nations.  Thus,  Vasily
Safronchuk  and his U.N. police force are authorized to supervise
Namibian "elections" in order to place SWAPO leaders  in  control
of what  will  certainly  emerge  as a Marxist dictatorship.  The
fate of Namibians will be that of all Soviet slaves.

Installing a SWAPO dictatorship in Namibia will cost  the  United
Nations $600 million, one-third of which will be paid by American
taxpayers.   As congress discusses innovative ways to plunder the
American bourgeoisie in order to "reduce the budget deficit", not
one self-serving politician will DARE  SUGGEST  that--instead  of
raising  taxes--perhaps the Namibian Sovietization project should
be cut from the U.S.-U.N. budget.

SWAPO TOOK NAMIBIA IN NOVEMBER 1989!


Topic: BIND  IT  TOGETHER - Chap 18


Because The Plan calls for a world police force dominated by  the
Soviets,   it  is  little  wonder  that  Saul  Mendlovitz,  chief
theoretician for the World Order Models  Project,  openly  admits
that  world  government  is  likely to evolve into a totalitarian
entity.  He has stated: "It is my considered judgment that  there
is  no  longer  a  question  whether  or  not there will be world
government by the year 2000. As I see it, the questions we should
be addressing ourselves to are: how it will come  into  being--by
cataclysm,  drift,  rational  design?--and  whether  it  will  be
totalitarian, benign, or participatory?  (The probabilities being
in that order.)"

World order propagandists defend the totalitarian aspect  of  The
Plan  by  insisting  that  only  through  coercion  can socialist
bureaucrats save the world from fear and economic privation.  The
Cartel's radical Americans for Democratic Action has stated  that
it  is  possible for a police state to be obedient to the popular
will.  This is typical Marxist  propaganda  which  contends  that
populations enduring a police state GLADLY IMPOSE UPON THEMSELVES
THE STRANGULATING TERROR OF MARTIAL LAW.

Cartel  elite  have  always  stressed  that  a  police  state  is
necessary for CONTROL of  the  bovine  masses.    It  is  greatly
relevant,  as  we  documented  earlier, that Doug Dillon--guiding
force behind the World  Order  Models  Project  and  advocate  of
radical  constitutional  reform--is inextricably connected to the
rise of Hitler  and  the  National  Socialist  movement  of  Nazi
Germany.

Consider  also  the  personal  philosophy  of John Foster Dulles,
founding father of the  United  Nations  and  U.S.  Secretary  of
State.  Dulles was related to the Rockefeller family by marriage.
Through his law firm,  Sullivan  and  Cromwell,  Dulles  arranged
financing  for  Adolph  Hitler. He also served as Joseph Stalin's
legal counsel in the United States. In 1940, Dulles outlined what
he considered the virtues of totalitarianism:

"How are we to  overcome  the  obstacles  created  by  pride  and
selfishness?   We  can  get rid of them only by replacing them by
some sentiment more dominant and gripping and which will  contain
in it the elements of universality as against particularity.

"This is  no  visionary  dream.    Before  us  today  we have the
spectacle of Communism and Fascism changing almost overnight  the
characteristics of  entire peoples.  Millions of individuals have
been made  into  different  and,  on  the  whole,  finer  people.
Elemental  virtues  are  again  treated  as  matters  of concern.
Immoralities and dishonestness, personal  prides  and  prejudices
are replaced by courage, self-sacrifice and discipline.  There is
a  conscious  subordination  of  self  to the end that some great
objective may be furthered."

George Bernard Shaw, godfather of the Fabian Society (founded  by
British  disciples  of  Karl Marx) and an ardent supporter of The
Plan, also expressed delight with brutal dictatorship.  In  1931,
during  the  heyday  of  Stalin's  psychotic  purges, Shaw toured
Russia on behalf of the Cartel's European faction to observe  the
fruits of Soviet socialism.  He declared:

"It  is a real comfort to me, an old man, to be able to step into
my grave with the knowledge that the civilization  of  the  world
will be  saved.    It is here in Russia that I have actually been
convinced that the new Communist system  is  capable  of  leading
mankind  out  of  its present crisis, and saving it from complete
anarchy and ruin."

Bertrand Russell, another  world  order  pioneer  and  an  active
leader  of  Parliamentarians for World Government, was an adamant
proponent of a global police authority.   He  explained  why  the
global  disarmament plan will NOT alleviate the threat of nuclear
weapons:

"When I speak of international government, I mean one that really
governs, not an amiable facade like the League of  Nations  or  a
pretentious  sham  like  the  United  Nations  under  its present
constitution.  An international government  must  have  the  only
atomic  bombs,  the  only  plant for producing them, the only air
force, the only battleships, and generally whatever is  necessary
to make it irresistible."

Richard  Falk  emphasizes  the  "central  guidance  system"  will
maintain A NUCLEAR ARSENAL TO ENFORCE ITS DICTATES:

" . . the goal of  disarmament  will  be  to  eliminate  national
military establishments.    Residual and nominal nuclear arsenals
of fixed specifications will be  maintained  in  ten  centers  of
power/authority,  each  subject  to  dual  control activation and
requiring the participation of  a  designated  official,  or  his
appointed deputy."

Once  the  Cartel's  global  bureaucracy becomes THE IRRESISTIBLE
NUCLEAR POWER, it will have the means to enforce a brutal  global
police state.    (Are  you  getting  a  bit  anxious to get those
survival shelters?) Dr. Leo Szilard,  a  top  scientist  for  the
Manhattan Project, told a group of scientists in 1961:

"It  is  my contention that the only way to make the Court (World
Court) effective, is to empower the Court  to  impose  the  death
penalty for failure to appear in Court, when summoned.  The Court
would  deputize  any and all American citizens to try and execute
the sentence.  An American citizen killing an "outlaw" could  not
be legally tried for murder in an American court, inasmuch as the
treaty setting  up  the  Court  would be the law of the land.  In
addition to relying on  American  citizens  thus  deputized,  the
Court could  employ  perhaps  500 to 1,000 marshals.  It would be
the duty of the marshals to try to  execute  the  death  sentence
imposed by the Court."

The  Plan calls for regional police reserves of 50,000-75,000 per
unit.  These regional forces, controlled by  the  central  police
authority,  would  ensure  that  all  citizens obey the orders of
world government bureaucrats.  Richard Falk notes: "Participation
in these security activities would be a great honor and would  be
rewarded with  high  pay.   Members would receive a sophisticated
education and would be expected to be exemplary citizens  of  the
World Policy." NOT GOOD CITIZENS BUT RATHER EXEMPLARY CITIZENS OF
THE WORLD POLICY.

Cartel theoretician Payson S. Wild Jr. admitted years ago that if
world  government is to be effective, INDIVIDUAL citizens must be
terrorized into submission  by  the  world  police.    Apparently
envisioning a global version of the KGB, he wrote:

"Dealing with an entire state as a criminal has its psychological
as  well  as  military  and  other  practical  difficulties,  but
international  police  would  not  confine  their  functions   to
operations against  whole nations.  They could and should operate
against individual persons.  In fact, the  main  job  of  such  a
force may be that of enforcing law against private persons."

As an evolutionary step towards a global police state, the Cartel
created,  through  its  congressional  puppets, the Omnibus Crime
Control Act of 1968. This legislation engendered the federal  Law
Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA). Along with numerous
state laws and federal funding schemes, LEAA is gradually forging
local  police  forces,  county sheriff's departments and National
Guard units into a centrally-controlled  national  police  force.
This  computerized  national law enforcement network is slated to
fall under jurisdiction  of  the  GLOBAL  POLICE  FORCE  sometime
around the year 2000.

Remember,  the  U.S.  State  Department  has  announced  that the
ultimate goal is "general  and  complete  disarmament"  including
individual Americans, since privately-owned weapons could be used
to challenge global authority.

Lenin,  who led the Cartel-backed Russian Bolshevik Revolution of
1917, commanded his terrorists to "make mass  searches  and  hold
executions for  found  arms".  He declared: "Only the Soviets can
effectively disarm the bourgeoisie.  Unless  this  is  done,  the
victory of socialism is impossible."

World  order  propagandists  ridicule  Americans  who own arms as
"warmongers"   and   "Rambo-types".   Richard   Falk   complains:
"Prevailing  ethical  attitudes  in  the  United  States  support
domestic reliance on the war system.  The failure of Congress  to
enact   effective  legislation  prohibiting  hand  gun  sales  is
indicative."

The  Cartel's  program  of  "dynamic   gradualism"   has   placed
increasingly  burdensome requirements on the PRIVATE ownership of
firearms.  Gun registration is, according to  former  Congressman
John Rarick, the forerunner of arms confiscation.

After  relinquishing  ALL  of  her  weapons to a Soviet-dominated
global police force--slated to enforce the edicts  of  the  World
Court--the   United   States   will   cease  to  be  a  sovereign
nation-state.  America will be considered merely a regional  unit
of the Cartel's global eco-political system.

The Cartel has been very blatant about the ultimate design of The
Plan.  But  nowhere  have we found a more brazen declaration than
that of Cartel dignitary Walt Rostow, in his day, chairman of the
State Department Policy Planning Board:

ROSTOW ANNOUNCED:

" . . . IT IS A LEGITIMATE AMERICAN  NATIONAL  OBJECTIVE  TO  SEE
REMOVED  FROM ALL NATIONS--INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES--THE RIGHT
TO USE SUBSTANTIAL MILITARY FORCE TO PURSUE THEIR OWN  INTERESTS.
SINCE THIS RESIDUAL RIGHT IS THE ROOT OF NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY AND
THE  BASIS  FOR THE EXISTENCE OF AN INTERNATIONAL ARENA OF POWER,
IT  IS,  THEREFORE,  AN  AMERICAN  INTEREST  TO  SEE  AN  END  TO
NATIONHOOD AS IT HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY DEFINED."

So  be  it,  chela,  let  us allow this to seep within the brains
while you take respite.  Please do not longer hide your heads  in
the buckets of dirt.  EVERYTHING has been planned, from the drugs
to  lull  you  into stupor, to the rise of Satanism, to the false
"war on drugs" to get you behind all efforts to  CONTROL  and  DO
SOMETHING  ABOUT  THIS PROBLEM---well, "they" are doing something
about your problems---I hope you are ready  for  long,  hard  and
cold winters and a lot of bloodshed---YOURS!

When we  return  we  shall discuss how the "machine" runs.  It is
expected that you "stupid" "capitalist"  American  citizens  will
surrender  while  pleading  for more controls---"capitalists have
traditionally surrendered  with  'far  more  cowardice  than  the
Marxist scheme predicted'."  THAT, DEAR FRIENDS, CAME FROM CARTEL
HISTORIAN  ARTHUR  SCHLESINGER,  PRESIDENTIAL  ADVISOR TO JOHN F.
KENNEDY. HOW SAFE DO YOU FEEL THIS DAY?  WHAT DO YOU  THINK  THEY
MIGHT HAVE  BEEN  DOING  SINCE  THEY MURDERED MR. KENNEDY?  THINK
ABOUT IT!

I move to stand-by that we might draw this segment  to  a  close.
Thank  you  for  your  willing service on this your Christmas Day
Holiday.  Blessings  be  unto  you  and  yours  on  this  day  of
remembering.  Salu.

HATONN TO CLEAR FREQUENCY, PLEASE.


Topic: CHAPTER 19

From: REC #2 HATONN

Date: MONDAY, DECEMBER 25, 1989 11:45 A.M. YEAR 3, DAY 131


Hatonn  present  to  resume  in  order  that  we can examine this
"machine" which is being created to walk all over your freedom.

Topic: THE  HAMMER - Chap 19


According to a pre-determined formula, Americans are to be herded
into the socialist world order through threat of violence.  It is
understood by the Cartel that peoples of  the  world,  especially
those  who  have  tasted  sweet liberty, must be blackmailed into
accepting the tyranny of The Plan.

In 1962, Cartel strategist Dr. Lincoln P. Bloomfield wrote  in  A
WORLD  EFFECTIVELY  CONTROLLED  BY THE UNITED NATIONS: " . . . if
the communist dynamic was greatly abated,  the  West  might  lose
whatever incentive it has for world government."

This  mindset  explains why, from the day the Cartel placed Lenin
in power, the political,  financial  and  industrial  prowess  of
America has been used to construct the Soviet war machine.

World War  II was a watershed.  The Cartel financed Hitler's rise
to power.  Then,  through  trickery  and  deceit,  Cartel  agents
launched America into the war for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of building
a  formidable  Soviet  military  apparatus under cover of wartime
emergency.

Between  1941-1946,  the  Cartel  harnessed  American  taxpayers,
groaning  under  the  burden  of the war, to finance a 12 BILLION
DOLLAR military modernization program for Joseph Stalin.  Through
an   international   welfare   program  called  Lend-Lease,  U.S.
officials  transferred  to   the   Soviets   military   hardware,
industrial secrets and $300,000,000 in cash.

Helping  to  grease  the  skids for this major Cartel project was
Averell Harriman, cast in a dual role as  top  U.S.  official  in
charge of Lend-Lease for Russia and U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet
Union.  Harriman  was  a  member of the Brotherhood of Death, the
Cartel's secret society based at Yale. He was  also  an  original
Wall Street sponsor of the Bolshevik Revolution.

On  orders  from  Franklin Roosevelt, U.S. military aid to Soviet
dictator  Joseph  Stalin  took  PRIORITY  throughout   the   war.
Stalin's  demands  for  copper  wire  took priority over the U.S.
Navy's requirements for repair of battleships  damaged  at  Pearl
Harbor.  Stalin's  demand  for  3,000  pursuit  planes was met by
stripping every other  Allied  front.    His  demand  for  marine
engines was met to the detriment of General MacArthur's forces.

Between  1942-1943,  Cartel  agents shipped to Joseph Stalin both
the PLANS and MATERIALS for  the  production  of  atomic  weapons
(OUCH!). Congressional investigators confirmed in 1949 that these
transfers  were  facilitated  by: THE WHITE HOUSE (HARRY HOPKINS,
PRESIDENTIAL ADVISOR), THE LEND-LEASE  ADMINISTRATION,  THE  U.S.
DEPARTMENT  OF  COMMERCE,  THE  PROCUREMENT  DIVISION OF THE U.S.
TREASURY, THE BOARD  OF  ECONOMIC  WARFARE  AND  THE  U.S.  STATE
DEPARTMENT.

Major  General  Leslie  R.  Goves,  chief of America's top-secret
Manhattan  Project  which  developed  the  nuclear   bomb,   told
congressional  investigators  that  there  was NO WAY the Soviets
could  have  obtained  American  uranium  products  without   the
knowledge and assistance of TOP U.S. OFFICIALS!

Joseph Stalin  was  history's  foremost mass-murderer.  He was so
deranged that he  ordered  even  his  personal  physician  to  be
chained and tortured in a prison cell.  In 1949, Stalin detonated
his first  atomic  bomb.    On behalf of The Plan, the Cartel had
deliberately handed this demonic maniac the  ultimate  instrument
of mass genocide.

In  1982,  Senator  William  Armstrong  told the U.S. Senate that
America is still bearing the burden of two defense budgets:  "our
own, and a significant portion of the Soviet Union's". U.S.  News
and World Report noted in 1984:

"From   high   flying  interceptors  to  missiles  with  pinpoint
accuracy, the Soviet Union is deploying the  latest  products  of
defense technology--direct  from United States laboratories.  For
example, the Atoll missile that the Soviets used  to  shoot  down
the  Korean  airliner last September (the civilian air liner with
the Cartel's arch-enemy Congressman Lawrence McDonald aboard) was
a carbon copy of the American Sidewinder."

One U.S. Secretary of the Navy recently told naval officers:

"Within weeks, many of you will be looking across  just  hundreds
of  feet  of  water  at  some  of the most modern technology ever
invented in America. Unfortunately, it is on Soviet ships."

NO,  DEAR  ONES,  I  WOULD  NEVER  JOSH  ABOUT  SUCH   INCREDIBLY
HORRENDOUS FACTS. IT IS TRUTH.

Since  World War II, the same U.S. corporations awarded lucrative
defense contracts to help  defend  America  against  the  "Soviet
threat"  have  simultaneously built and modernized the Soviet war
machine.  One of these is General Electric, among the  oldest  of
Cartel corporations.      A   1986  ad  in  the  Journal  of  the
U.S.-U.S.S.R  Trade  and  Economic  Council   celebrated   G.E.'s
commitment  to  "progressive cooperation" with the Soviet "vision
of an industrial future".

Professor Richard Pipes of Harvard offers this perspective:

"The industrial assistance given to the Soviet  Union  helps  its
military  effort by strengthening the Soviet wartime mobilization
base.  The so-called 'dual-use' technology, lavishly sold to  the
U.S.S.R.  in  the  1960s and especially the 1970s, has had a most
impressive effect in enhancing Soviet military power."

Another illustrious corporate backer of the Soviet war machine is
Dresser Industries of Houston. Dresser  has  been  "working  with
Soviet industry" since the early Sixties when the Vietnam War was
a roaring   conflagration.      Dresser  Industries  completed  a
multimillion dollar drill bit plant at Kuibyshev,  providing  the
Soviets  with  the  machinery  and  technology  they need for oil
exploration and for monitoring U.S. submarines.

Dresser Industries also advertises heavily in the Journal of  the
U.S.-U.S.S.R.  Trade  and  Economic  Council. Their ad shows they
maintain offices in Moscow and shows side-by-side flags which  is
yet  another confirmation that the Soviet eco-political system is
built upon a mighty foundation of  Western  megacorporations  and
demonstrates  why  Americans  may  justifiably  consider  Mikhail
Gorbachev, Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party, a  FRONT  MAN
FOR CORPORATE AMERICA.

The   world's  foremost  expert  on  the  transfer  of  strategic
technology from American megacorporations to the U.S.S.R. is  Dr.
Antony  Sutton.  Dr.  Sutton  is  a former research fellow of the
Hoover  Institution,  Stanford  University.  After   decades   of
investigation  of  government files and corporate records, Sutton
has  compiled  mountains  of  data,  including   the   monumental
three-volume  WESTERN TECHNOLOGY AND SOVIET ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.
Sutton concludes: "Our technical build-up of  the  Soviets  is  a
deliberate policy.   THE POLICY IS NOT AN ACCIDENT. THE POLICY IS
NOT BASED ON ERRONEOUS OR INADEQUATE INFORMATION. Western  policy
makers  and  businessmen  know  precisely the contribution of our
technology to the Soviet military industrial complex."

Effort after effort has been made to silence  Dr.  Sutton.  Honor
this wondrous man who is willing to run the risk of his very life
in sending  forth information.  He does a newsletter which excels
all but a very few documents in value.   America  is  in  serious
jeopardy, serious indeed.

Anyone  who  cares  to  examine  the facts will discover that the
Cartel has deliberately created the Soviet military  machine  for
the express  purpose of blackmail.  Americans are now continually
told that they have only two choices: ANNIHILATION OF THE  PLANET
OR THE PLAN!

Note carefully the opening phrases of the Cartel's Declaration of
INTERdependence:

"WHEN IN THE COURSE OF HISTORY THE THREAT OF EXTINCTION CONFRONTS
MANKIND,  IT  IS NECESSARY FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES TO
DECLARE THEIR INTERDEPENDENCE WITH THE PEOPLE OF ALL NATIONS, AND
TO EMBRACE THOSE PRINCIPLES AND BUILD  THOSE  INSTITUTIONS  WHICH
WILL ENABLE MANKIND TO SURVIVE AND CIVILIZATION TO FLOURISH.

"TWO  CENTURIES  AGO, OUR FOREFATHERS BROUGHT FORTH A NEW NATION;
NOW WE MUST JOIN WITH OTHERS TO BRING FORTH A NEW WORLD ORDER."


====>> Continued in Cry Of The Phoenix part 15 <<================


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Are you ready for SETI?
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Oct 12,1992 - ET comes to NM
UUCP: .........uunet!peora!bilver!dona  | The *real* "October Surprise"
Psi-Tech and alien brain-wave research -- Whats going on at Los Alamos?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!peora!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Cry of the Phoenix - part 15/18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 92 12:51:19 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 641



====>> Cry Of The Phoenix part 15 <<=============================


Topic: THE SICKLE - Chap 19


We shall now scrutinize the Cartel's Soviet military machine.  We
draw  technical  data  from  information  recently  published  by
researchers  at  the University of California at Los Angeles, the
U.S. Department of Defense and the 141-member  Committee  on  the
Present  Danger--among  others  which we will protect in the best
manner possible--anonymity.  You can check on all these documents
and references as they will all be placed in the appendix of this
Journal. I do not, however, intend to make it easy for any  enemy
to locate  any  one  of our fellow-authors.  The references shall
simply be placed in order of appearance in  these  few  chapters,
without  reference as to location----you ones do some of your own
homework.   The  major  purpose  of  this  document  is  to   get
circulation  to  such  extent  that the original research team is
protected in confusion and misdirection of first intent.  You who
know the difference---it is obvious it is  better  to  keep  your
mouth shut for the tongue is the most deadly weapon of all.  I am
pushing  this  scribe and this team day and night to get this out
to cover the earth based team.  It is a  frightening  world  down
there, brothers.    We  hold  you  in our care to the best of our
ability.



Topic: TOTAL  SOVIET  ICBMs - Chap 19



The Soviet war machine is founded on  intercontinental  ballistic
missiles  (ICBMs).  ICBMs  are  large,  land-based missiles which
carry nuclear warheads.  If you count reloads,  the  Soviets  now
have at  least  20,200  ICBM  warheads.    That  is more than 400
nuclear warheads for each of 50 American states.

Soviet warheads can  be  delivered  with  precision  accuracy--to
within  a  circular error of 180 YARDS at the end of an 8000-mile
flight.  The credit for Soviet missile accuracy goes  to  Richard
Nixon,   Henry  Kissinger,  and  the  Departments  of  State  and
Commerce. In 1972, while Americans were still dying  in  Vietnam,
the  Nixon-Kissinger  regime  sold the Soviets precision grinding
machines manufactured ONLY by BRYANT CHUCKING GRINDER COMPANY  OF
VERMONT. The Soviets needed these machines for the manufacture of
ball  bearings vital for inertial navigation systems on the ICBMs
which deliver MULTIPLE warheads.

This sale was made despite  objections  from  the  Department  of
Defense. This  sale  was  no oversight, no stupid mistake.  Nixon
knew that in 1961, the Senate Subcommittee on  Internal  Security
had  concluded that an earlier Department of Commerce decision to
grant a license for export of Bryant ball bearing grinders to the
Soviets was of "life and death  importance  to  America"  and  "a
grave error".

Credit  for  Soviet  missile  accuracy also goes to U.S. computer
brokers like Control Data Corporation, with corporate offices  in
Minnesota  and Moscow. CDC, with links to the KGB's U.S.-U.S.S.R.
Trade  and  Economics  Council,   provides   the   Soviets   with
state-of-the-art computer systems for missile guidance.  Congress
is  apparently  incapable  of  intervening  in the great computer
technology flow to the Soviets.


Topic: SOVIET POWER AT SEA - Chap 19



Over 100 Soviet ballistic missile submarines can deliver to  U.S.
targets  the  Soviet  arsenal  of  some  2,000 submarine-launched
ballistic missiles (SLBMs).  Two  hundred  twenty  Soviet  cruise
missile   subs   can   deliver  to  U.S.  territory  hundreds  of
sea-launched cruise missiles.  Understand that the  Soviets  have
over 300 nuclear-capable submarines; the U.S. has 39.

Soviet  subs  continually  lurk  off  both  of  America's coastal
regions, where over  50  percent  of  this  nation's  population,
industry and   infrastructure   is  located.    Nuclear  warheads
launched from these Soviet subs can hit ground zero (Los Angeles,
Boston,  New  York,  Washington,  D.C.)  within  ten  minutes  of
launching.   SLBMs  are  capable of generating an electromagnetic
pin-down effect  against  America's  ICBMs  until  these  can  be
destroyed  by  Soviet ICBMs. PLEASE REFER TO SURVIVAL IS ONLY TEN
FEET FROM HELL. Open your eyes, the sky IS falling!  On you!


Topic: SOVIET AIR POWER - Chap 19


The Soviets  have  6,800  nuclear  delivery  aircraft.      Many,
including  the  Bear  H  bombers,  can deliver to the continental
United States air-launched nuclear missiles.  Soviet bombers  are
often  observed  in  training  flights simulating attacks against
North America.


Topic: SOVIET HOMELAND DEFENSE - Chap 19



Despite the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, which  they  have
massively  violated,  the Soviets have developed an extensive air
defense network in the  U.S.S.R.  This  defense  system  includes
7,000  radars,  1,200 air defense interceptor aircraft and 10,000
surface-to-air missiles which can intercept  both  ballistic  and
cruise missiles.    A  full-scale  ABM  defense  system will make
Soviet territory nearly invincible by the end of 1989----THAT  IS
THIS WEEK, BROTHERS!



Topic: SOVIET SPACE WEAPONS - Chap 19



The  Soviet  space program, supplied by American corporations and
fine-tuned by the joint U.S.-Soviet space  project  (Apollo-Soyuz
1973-1979),  is  designed specifically to augment Soviet military
operations.

Soviet space technology is so advanced that the  Soviets  operate
some 50  types  of  space systems.  These include space stations,
reconnaissance  vehicles  and  a  massive  fleet  of   satellites
designed  for special communications, imagery reconnaissance, and
electronic intelligence.  Soviet  satellite  systems  continually
monitor  U.S.  and  NATO  military  exercises and they track U.S.
submarines.

The  Soviets  have  deployed   the   world's   ONLY   operational
anti-satellite  (ASAT)  system, which can destroy ALL OF THE U.S.
MILITARY AND COMMUNICATIONS SATELLITES BY EXPLODING  CONVENTIONAL
WARHEADS.  America's  nuclear  attack  warning  system  is mainly
satellite-based.  In 1982, when the Soviets rehearsed a trial run
for a nuclear war, their FIRST MOVE WAS TO  DESTROY  THE  ENEMY'S
SATELLITE COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS.


Topic: SOVIET FUTURISTIC TECHNOLOGY - Chap 19



Thousands  of  Soviet  scientists  are  perfecting laser weapons,
particle beam weapons, radio frequency  weapons,  kinetic  energy
weapons  and  advanced  computer  and sensor technology that will
make the Soviet homeland defense impenetrable.

Soviet researchers are working at an advanced stage  with  scalar
electromagnetics  to  affect weather patterns and to create a new
class of weapons which can  destroy  or  neutralize  weapons  and
personnel in vast areas without permanent contamination.  THIS IS
A REALLY SERIOUS POINT.


Topic: CENTRAL  AMERICA - Chap 19


The  Soviet  military  machine,  based in Cuba and Nicaragua, was
created and is nurtured by the U.S. Department of State  and  the
Central   Intelligence   Agency   (CIA).   These  are  the  chief
bureaucracies through which the Cartel is  preparing  nations  of
the Western Hemisphere for the socialist world order.

Former  New  York  Times  reporter Tad Szulc notes that while the
U.S. State Department slapped an arms embargo on the pro-American
Batista government  in  Cuba,  the  CIA  was  secretly  providing
Castro's  insurgency  forces  with  arms  and  money  for Marxist
revolution in Cuba.

Earl T. Smith, U.S.  Ambassador  to  Cuba  during  the  Communist
revolution  there,  has  testified that Soviet proxy Fidel Castro
could not have seized power in Cuba without assistance  from  the
U.S. government.   He confirms that "American government agencies
and the United States press  played  a  major  role  in  bringing
Castro to  power."  This has also been confirmed by congressional
investigations.  YOU WILL NOTE,  HOWEVER,  THAT  THE  RESULTS  OF
THESE  INVESTIGATIONS  ARE EITHER MARKED "TOP SECRET" AND SECURED
AWAY OR JUST NEVER MAKE IT TO THE PUBLIC NOTICE.

Mario Lazo, with ties to the U.S.  embassy  in  pre-Castro  Cuba,
confirms  in  DAGGER  IN  THE  HEART  that  Washington  KNOWINGLY
selected Castro for his role  as  Soviet  proxy  in  the  Western
Hemisphere.  Shortly  after Castro took power and began executing
Cubans by the thousands, he was awarded 55.9 million  dollars  in
goods  and  3  million  dollars  in  cash by the U.S. government.
Despite theatrics, Castro is an important U.S. agent.

Cuba provides the Cartel a staging area for communist  subversion
which  is  now  engulfing  Central  America.  In  1978,  economic
assistance was given  to  the  anti-communist  Somoza  regime  of
Nicaragua  while the CIA hoisted to power the Cuban-backed Frente
Sandinista De Liberacion Nacional,  the  Marxist-Leninist  regime
which now holds Nicaragua in totalitarian bondage.

In  1988,  10,000  Nicaraguans marched in protest, carrying signs
reading "Democracy Yes,  Communism  No".  The  protesters  called
their Marxist  tormentors "murderous dogs".  These murderous dogs
were nurtured with tens of millions of dollars in direct economic
aid from the Carter administration.   Millions  of  dollars  more
continued flowing to these criminals via U.S. taxpayer-subsidized
loans    from   the   Inter-American   Development   Bank.   U.S.
government-approved bank loans to Soviet Bloc nations now  enable
the Soviets to bankroll Nicaragua through direct military aid.

While  the  brutalized  citizens  of  Nicaragua  live  in  abject
destitution, Nicaragua's Marxist dictator, Daniel Ortega,  enjoys
typical nomenklaturist  privilege.  In 1986, he paid $3,000 for a
pair of designer sun glasses while attending a New York  fete  in
his  honor,  sponsored  by  leftist  folk singers Peter, Paul and
Mary. YOU SEE, THEY KNOW NOT THAT WHICH THEY DO!

Ortega, who flits between Moscow, New York  and  Managua,  enjoys
support  from  an  influential faction of the U.S. Congress. This
faction raises funds for several Marxist  fronts,  including  the
National  Network  in  Solidarity  with Nicaraguan People and the
Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador.

In addition, the Marxist government of Nicaragua  rests  upon  an
economic  foundation provided by the Cartel's corporate interlock
including IBM, Xerox,  Esso  Standard  Ltd.,  American  Standard,
Chevron,  General Mills, Intercontinental Hotels, Nabisco Brands,
Texaco and United Brands--all of which maintain corporate offices
and conduct business inside Nicaragua.

The Cartel's leading Marxist front  in  the  United  States,  the
National  Council  of  Churches (an affiliate of the KGB-operated
World Council  of  Churches)  ---  WOOPS!    FINALLY   GOT   YOUR
ATTENTION?  SO  BE IT, LITTLE CHELAS, SO BE IT!!  --- uses tithes
from forty million U.S. Christians to fund an influential network
of pro-Sandinista propaganda outlets in Nicaragua and the  United
States. And yes, the contributors think they are doing that which
pleases God---it does, it just happens to be the imposter God.

Meantime,  the  CIA  directs  and funds guerrilla movements which
"oppose" the Cartel's  Central  American  Marxist  dictatorships.
The  Cartel's  brilliant  strategy  of  "opposing" itself enables
America's   pro-Marxist   leadership   to    appear    virulently
"anti-communist".  It  also  enables  Cartel  agents to identify,
neutralize  and  ultimately  destroy  LEGITIMATE   anti-communist
forces which might jeopardize The Plan.

The  ill-fated  Bay  of Pigs invasion is a classic example of how
this devious strategy works.  After the CIA put Castro in  power,
it  organized Castro's enemies into a cohesive invasionary force.
Through  meticulous  planning,  the  CIA-State  Department  nexus
delivered  to these anti-communist forces worthless weapons, then
canceled promised air support, and led them into Castro's  deadly
ambush.   Mario  Lazo  describes  Cartel  betrayal of those brave
Cubans who  tried  so  valiantly  to  free  their  homeland  from
Castro's Marxist dictatorship:

"The  Free  Cuban  beach  commander sent his final message to the
American vessels standing off Giron:  'I  am  destroying  all  my
equipment', he  said,  'I  have  nothing left to fight with.  The
enemy tanks are already in my position.  Farewell, friends'.

"For three days the men had fought without rest and  with  little
food or  water.    The  promised supplies had never reached them.
Now they had run out of ammunition and  food.    Gathering  their
remaining  strength, the men crawled into the swamps----almost to
a man they were killed or taken prisoner.

"I have talked to two American pilots who  flew  helplessly  over
the  Cuban  beaches as Castro's tanks and forces closed in on the
final day.  One told me he had cursed his orders (to  cancel  air
support); the other said he had cried."

The  Bay  of  Pigs sellout was masterminded by Cartel blue-bloods
who operated the White House during the  Kennedy  administration.
These  included:  the  raving socialist and presidential advisor,
Arthur M. Schlesinger; Walt  Rostow,  who  advocated  an  end  to
America's   nationhood  as  historically  defined;  the  sinister
McGeorge Bundy (Brotherhood of Death) whose family  was  involved
with  assisting the Bolshevik Revolution; the verminous Dean Rusk
who, as head of the  U.S.  State  Department,  would  later  tell
Americans   that  the  bloody  debauchery  of  the  U.N.  Katanga
operation was necessary "to save the Congo from the  communists";
and  the  pusillanimous John F. Kennedy, who reportedly solicited
help from the Mafia to win the presidency, and whose father  made
his  fortune  within  the  syndicate  which operates the Cartel's
international narcotics industry.

DOESN'T ALL THIS BEGIN TO SCARE THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF  YOU?
WE  ARE  TALKING  VERY,  VERY SERIOUS AND GRAVE CONSEQUENCES----I
HAVE NO WAY TO STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS  MATERIAL  UNTO  YOU
PRECIOUS,  MISLED  CITIZENS  OF  THAT WHICH WAS THE MOST WONDROUS
NATION OF NATIONS THAT WAS EVER FOUNDED UPON YOUR WORLD. MOST  OF
YOU  WILL  NOT BELIEVE IT NOW. THERE WILL COME THE DAY, TOO SOON,
WHEN IT SHALL HIT YOU RIGHT BETWEEN YOUR EYES.

After the Bay of Pigs sellout, Kennedy secretly  promised  Soviet
dictator  Nikita Khrushchev that America would never again invade
Cuba. Kennedy ordered the arrest  of  all  remaining  anti-Castro
activists  in  the U.S. and the confiscation of their weapons and
vessels as a precaution against future invasion.  GO LOOK AT YOUR
HISTORY DOCUMENTS--I DO NOT EVEN EXPECT YOU TO "JUST" BELIEVE ME.
GO SEE FOR  YOURSELVES  IN  THE  PAGES  OF  YOUR  OWN  HISTORICAL
DOCUMENTS.

The  CIA-controlled anti-Sandinista "Contra" movement is likewise
doomed to betrayal and annihilation.

In 1962, when Soviet ICBMs were still only on the drawing boards,
and when the U.S. still held  ALL  the  trump  cards  militarily,
Khrushchev    began    placing    surface-to-air   missiles   and
intermediate-range ballistic missiles in Cuba.

It is now known that Kennedy's "tough  stand"  during  the  Cuban
missile crisis  was  just  another  Cartel  charade.    During  a
carefully orchestrated showdown, the Cartel was able to work  its
"global annihilation" theme to maximum advantage.  Cartel celebs,
including  Secretary  of  State  Dean  Rusk,  pontificated that a
misstep could have meant the "incineration" of the North American
continent.

Khruschev's packing boxes left Cuba, but no one knows what was in
them because the White House prohibited the navy from  inspecting
them.  They were probably empty.

The  Soviets  have  reneged  on  their  agreement  to permit U.S.
inspection of Cuban bases.  During 1988  congressional  hearings,
the  Chairman  of  the  Joint  Chiefs  of Staff admitted that the
Soviets  could  place  nuclear  missiles  in  Cuba  WITHOUT  U.S.
DETECTION.  There  have been numerous reports of nuclear missiles
(SS-4s and SS-5s with one-megaton nuclear yield) being stored  in
Cuban caves.

The   Soviet   war   machine   in   Cuba   includes  hundreds  of
nuclear-capable MiG-21's, MiG-23's, Fishhead  and  Bear  bombers.
According to a high-level Nicaraguan defector, these aircraft are
to  be  deployed  in  Nicaragua.  Air  bases in Nicaragua can now
accommodate Soviet aircraft capable of transporting troops, tanks
and nuclear missile launchers.

Castro's  25  combat-ready  divisions  are  backed   by   200,000
Nicaraguan troops.   This Soviet machine is quietly building to a
level IN EXCESS of the combined unit strength of the entire  U.S.
Army, National Guard and U.S. Army Reserve.

NOW,  ARE  YOU  ABOUT  READY  TO BEGIN TO CONSIDER THOSE SURVIVAL
SHELTERS?  NO?----THEN LET US CONTINUE:

Topic: EUROPE - Chap 19


In the event of a conventional war in Europe,  the  Warsaw  Pact,
comprised  of  troops  from  the  Soviet  Union  and the occupied
nations of Eastern Europe, can deploy 5-6 million  troops;  2,249
battle  force  ships; 6,750 attack aircraft; 51,900 tanks; 63,390
armored personnel carriers, and 46,300 artillery tubes.

The shrewd Soviet ploy of offering to cut its Warsaw Pact  troops
by  10 percent and remove some of its obsolete tanks from Eastern
Europe (for a price, of course) still  leaves  the  Soviets  with
OVERWHELMING military superiority in Europe.

Soviet troops have been specially trained and equipped to unleash
chemical and biological warfare agents against American troops in
the European  theater.    The Soviets have vaccines and antidotes
which will protect their own troops during a  biological/chemical
assault against Western Europe.

The   use  of  killer  toxins  will  spare  the  urban-industrial
infrastructure of Western Europe so  that  it  can  be  exploited
after a  war  to  Soviet advantage.  The technology necessary for
chemical warfare has been provided to  the  Soviets  by  numerous
Western   corporations,   including  Armand  Hammer's  Occidental
Petroleum, DuPont, Monsanto and Rohm and Haas.

Establishing  hegemony  over  the  Western  Europe  is  a   PRIME
OBJECTIVE  OF  SOVIET  GRAND  STRATEGY as affirmed by top Western
military experts, including Richard Pipes.

Soviet defector  Michael  Voslensky  confirms  that  the  Soviets
(despite  their  devious  "peace" games) are DEADLY SERIOUS ABOUT
GLOBAL DOMINATION. He believes that when the time  is  ripe,  the
Soviets  will  seize Western Europe, because its wealth, industry
and skilled work force is "of vital importance in  answering  the
question, put by Lenin, of who will beat whom".

Would the  Soviets  risk  nuclear  war to take Europe?  Voslensky
says the Soviets want not war but victory, yet  "victory  crosses
the  frontier  between peace and war and that is where the danger
of another world conflagration lies".

It is relevant that the Cartel handed Stalin Eastern Europe on  a
silver  platter  during  the  World  War  II.  Voslensky says the
Soviets believe that Western  Europe  will  surrender  without  a
fight, a  theory  confirmed by recent Western European polls.  It
is strange to note that the most fighting of the system is coming
from the Soviet Bloc nations themselves.  Have you not  witnessed
the  almost  "Holy"  way the Europeans welcome Mr. Gorbachev into
their midst?  They will end up giving  their  countries  away  in
treaties and joint ventures to "save the world".

After  Western  Europe  becomes  a  giant  Soviet  satellite, the
Soviets will automatically become overlords of the Mediterranean,
the Far East, Japan and the small nations of  the  world.    Then
America   will  stand  alone--surrounded  by  a  Communist  world
dedicated to her fiery destruction.  How about a survival shelter
now?  No, not yet?   OK,  let  us  continue  by  doing  a  little
comparative shopping.

Dharma,  allow this to rest for a while as you need a rest before
holiday festivities.  Let us just see how the  remainder  of  the
day   fits   into  plans  for  more  work  and  allow  it  to  be
comfortable.  You have done much beyond that which would be asked
on a Christmas Day. Let me offer you love, hope  and  charity  as
your gift for this day for as long as there are ones who love and
care,  there  is  always  hope,  for all things are possible with
Mother/Father Creator.

Salu,

Hatonn to clear frequencies.



Topic: C